Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Wanna fix your lift pump problems?

[Big White Beast]

Ken..

The lift pump should be covered under the 100K mile engine warranty. Not sure if there is a yearly limit on that. Worst case buy the pump from Cummins, they ask around $150 for it.



Garrett

 

[RSnaith]

Originally posted by EricBu12

If we used the 4200 near the tank, would the PSI be a little lower up by the inj. Pump or should we use the 4100 to keep the PSI at 15?



I was told by Bosch that we shouldn't have more than 15 head PSI at the inj. Pump. This from an engineer from germany... .

When I was talking to PE, they didn't seem all that thrilled with my idea of using the 4100. I think it had been tried, and for some reason, shot down. Personally I preferred the 4100 for the lower pressure, although at 18 PSI we're still ok on the VP44. It doesn't kick into start-up bypass until 19 - 20 PSI.



Rod

 

[RSnaith]

Originally posted by Whitmore

are you using the bigger line all the way into the tank or are you splicing into the existing pickup?



the PE pump is being used as a stand alone pump in replacement of the oem L/P right? And if it is are you using the oem wireing lead driven by the ecm?

We're using stock lines running into the tank as they are plenty big enough for both the stock Carter and the PE pumps. We're a little scared of the pickup tube right now as its a known failure point. We'll run for awhile with the stocker and see what we get for life.



Currently, we're using the OEM wiring, again more to see how long it takes to fail. I suspect we'll be moving to a relay setup and trying to vary voltages with relays, just like the stock system does.

 

[Behr]

Re: Ken..

Originally posted by Big White Beast

The lift pump should be covered under the 100K mile engine warranty. Not sure if there is a yearly limit on that. Worst case buy the pump from Cummins, they ask around $150 for it.



Garrett

Garrett..... I was talking to the dealer up here where I bought my dodge... . and the lift pump is covered for 100K / 5 Year.



I will have to check out Cummins price here... . just about died what I found it was going for at the local dealer.....





Gordon.....

 

[Big White Beast]

Rod.....

Have you thought about pre-filters? When I added my carter 4070 pusher pump the instructions clearly stated that it had to have a pre-filter for the warranty to be intact. Could contaminants be whats causing a higher failure rate on the by-passes?



My original pump didn't flat out die, it slowly faded away. I haven't disected it yet to see the cause, I just guessed that it was wearing out.



Anyway after adding the pusher I went with an in line filter similar to Gary's that was pictured earlier. I clogged the first one after 6 tanks and the second about the same. That tells me that there are some sizeable contaminants running through the stock pumps.



The one I'm running now will do 45 GPM and the housing it screws to has 1/2" NPT threads in and out. (NAPA #4006 filter and # 4309 housing)



Although you would still have the rust problem mounting it where I did. Just a thought anyway.



Garrett



#ad

 

[Behr]

Does anyone know what other diesel truck manufacturer's do in respect to how they get fuel from the tank to the injection pump. . ??



or should I ask... just where do they put the lift (transfer) pump in relationship to the tank and injection pump...



I do know that GM puts their transfer pump on the frame rail just under the driver seat.



But what about the other truck... small and large... . what exactly do they do... ??



I know the VP44 needs a set amount of fuel for cooling and lubrication..... but this is the not only place where this particular style of pump is been used.



Could not one of the reasons for lift pump failure be due to dirty fuel... ?? Could this make a perfect recipe for a healthy new pump to be short lived... ??



There have been numerous good points and theory's brought out in this thread... .



Gordon.....

 

[Big White Beast]

Gordon........

One of the main reasons they don't mount it near the rail is noise. Even with rubber grommets and a 1/4" thick piece of rubber I mounted mine on I can hear it in the cab. On my work truck I don't care, thing rattles all over from the junk I carry.



I haven't gone that route yet on the 02 for the noise reason. I keep watching these threads to see if something better comes up. Unfortunately so far there is no sure fire fix.



Ron... .



Just curious, when you mount yours on the rail under the hood do they still transmit noise???



Garrett

 

[Behr]

This is just a thought... .....



Just wondering if LP failures is partially to do with the removal of sulphur.



It would be interesting to see just how many people are using some form of lubricity additive and are still on their original OEM LP...





Gordon

 

[RSnaith]

Re: Rod.....

Originally posted by Big White Beast

Have you thought about pre-filters? When I added my carter 4070 pusher pump the instructions clearly stated that it had to have a pre-filter for the warranty to be intact. Could contaminants be whats causing a higher failure rate on the by-passes?

It may be, but I don't think so. The ones I saw were simply beaten to death. The springs were usually weak or broken. I've noticed that some of Carters pumps call for pre-filters, while others, don't seem to care. The PE pump specifically proscribes against using a pre-filter, as it raises inlet vacuum too much.



Rod

 

[Whitmore]

Why is the L/P located where it is???





Because the L/P is part of the Cummins package when it is delivered to DC thats why. There was an engeneering debocle between DC and Cummins on this one, Cummins was to supply the L/P with the package so they mounted it on the motor. The only other reason I could even emagine why it is there is to keep it warm but once the pump is running it will stay plenty warm on its own.



I'll tell ya what fellas I am impressed with Rod's fuel delivery system and if I were using the OEM tank as my source I would definatly get the new package he is offering, I would go one step further and modify the pickup inside the tank as well, I know Rod states that the current pickup will supply adequate flow to the L/P and that will suffice for most but my theory is to give the pump all the advantage it can get. It sounds as if the kit will have what you need to do the job right, it certainly beats replacing L/P's every time you blink an eye, If what you have fails dont put it back the same way



Bomb it



cheers, Kevin

 

[Pit Bull]

I know this is heresy and I know that the LP's seem to fail in large numbers at least they seem to when it comes to our members. I even had one fail on my 2000. But this does not make sense from a business model standpoint. Rod's solution is well thought out and sounds like it works well. What I don't understand is if the LP was such a problem why DC would not have adopted this type of solution. Why does DC have a 5 year 100K mile warranty on the LP and VP44 without installing a fuel pressure gauge as a factory item and telling the owners to watch the gauge and if the alarm goes off to bring it in for a new lift pump. The VP44 is not a cheap item. DC's in business to make money if the failures were causing a big expense then DC would address them. But from 1998 through 2002 DC only modified the lift pump. Not it's location or the banjo's or fuel line size or adding an additional pusher pump. I have friends that own CTD's and have them serviced at Wally world and don't even know that their truck has a LP or a VP44 and they drive the heck out of their trucks and no failures? I guess I can't say they have not had a failure because they might be driving around with a dead lift pump and not even know it But they are still driving around, one on the original fuel filter that came in his truck 50+K miles ago :{ I guess I'm trying to say that this Lift pump problem does not fit any business model I have ever seen

 

[JyRO]

Good eye...

Pit Bull - I agree that it doesn't seem to fit a business model.



What I think this tells us is a couple things.



1) D/C is prolly making money hand-over-fist on Dodge Rams. Not just the CTD truck either.



2) D/C wants Cummins to supply the LP so they will not move it off the engine.



3) D/C and Cummins are at least splitting the cost of the L/P's (and the service to replace them), or D/C could be making Cummins eat it all. Either way, I bet that LP doesn't cost Cummins or D/C but prolly $25 or so. The kicker is labor, but the shop guys can do it quickly to that cost is at a minimum too.



Lastly, things like this leave a bad taste in a customers mouth. Like the 6. 0 fiasco. Although those Lemmings seem not to have any taste buds. Its stuff like the LP and the 6. 0 fiasco, that a automaker like Toyota would never allow to happen or have totally fixed lickety split. Because their goal is customer satisfaction, and they want repeat sales. They seem to get it too.



That's just my take on it, maybe I'm missing a few things.



- JyRO

 

[RSnaith]

Originally posted by Pit Bull

What I don't understand is if the LP was such a problem why DC would not have adopted this type of solution. Why does DC have a 5 year 100K mile warranty on the LP and VP44 without installing a fuel pressure gauge as a factory item and telling the owners to watch the gauge and if the alarm goes off to bring it in for a new lift pump.

DC probably doesn't care much about the LP/Injector pump failures as they don't actually pay for them (the parts anyway. Don't know about the labor side). They are immediately returned back to Cummins, who then kicks it on down to road to Carter and Bosch. This is why Carter hired an independent consultant in Pennsylvania to study the effects of backpressure/long draw on the lift pumps, and Bosch signed onto the study as well. I suspect they are getting tired of footing the bills. The results of this study were supposed to be released this spring.



As to why Cummins doesn't use braided line and 90s, I suspect its a cost issue. The current banjo fittings are available a dime a dozen, as are the bolts. And our rigging doesn't look as clean as as a banjo system either.



Rod

 

[Ken Dunn]

My local Dodge dealer came out this am After I went to them. They picked up the truck and said the lift pump was covered. I will advise on what happens!!



Ken

 

[Behr]

The following was taken from a thread that "15W40" posted in a thread that I came across a few days ago.



=========



C1B1DIESEL posted this some time ago:



24V refers to 24 volts used in applications other than orr Rams.

12V refers to 12 volts.



Here is a little history on the lift pumps and what changes were done to them and part Numbers. Hope this helps

this is long. Don’t ask were it came from and I will not have to lie



CORRECTIVE ACTION SUMMARY



Below is a brief history of Lift Pump Part Number and associated

design/product changes:



12V 24V



3943467 3942802 Initial ISB Production



3944818 3942802 Added "saw cut" to the motor casing to better

detect leaks during production



3944508 Stainless Steel Valve Seat/Bronze Bushing for

the Internal Pressure Regulator



3945812 3945813 Some lift pumps were having a problem with

the internal wiring shorting to the magnet sleeve. The wiring

insulation was inadvertently being

stripped from the wiring during assembly and during pumps operation the

wires are shorting to the magnet sleeve.

Federal Mogul has changed the angularity of the wire lugs in the bottom

of the pump so the wires will enter behind the

magnet sleeve in a more direct manner, thereby reducing the chances of

stripping

the insulation. They also changed their end

of the line testing to look for this shorting problem during pump

operation. Federal Mogul is also adding a

radius to the top and the bottom of the magnet sleeve where the wires

travel behind the sleeve.



3948431 3948432 Corrosion of the connection of the pigtail

at the bottom of the pump was being seen. This was found to be to the

result of road salt acting as an electrolyte.

The vendor changed the electrical eye terminal from brass to

bronze. No corrosion is evident during simulation

and salt fog tests with the bronze terminal. The mechanical properties

of the bronze meet or exceed that of the

brass and the vendor did conduct vibration test for further

verification. To further aid in corrosion

resistance, grease was added to each terminal at the Engine plant during

assembly.



3946151 3948070 the lift pump was updated with an

integral electrical connector. The integrated connector eliminates the

need for a pigtail type harness on the pump

and will eliminate the exposure of the pigtail to environmental elements.

Also updated was EMI reduction for the pump

due to an added capacitor to the internal circuit board and a Ferrite bead

added to the connector.



3948431 (12V) and 3948432 (24V) where still

kept available for service because the wiring harness on older engines

where not long enough to plug into the integral adapter.



3938367 3938368 It was found the bearing material used

for the MFR. of bearings was not consistently uniform, leading to

variance in the pump performance. This

leads to change the bearing material to sintered iron from bronze.

There was also a change in armature shaft

geometry to straight one reduces the 100% inspection of the shafts.

These pumps have the integral connector.



For service, 3948431 (12V) was superceded to

3938435 (12V) and 3948434 (24V) was superceded to 3938436 (24V).

These pumps still maintain the pigtail wiring harness.



3990082 This is a service kit supercedes

3948431(12V). It includes 3938367 (12V) and a jumper harness (4025182) so

that it can be used on older engines with the

shorter lift pump connection wiring harness. 3938436 (24V) was superceded

to 3938368 (24V), but a kit was not created to

included the jumper harness, 4025182 must be ordered separately.







3990105 3990106 The lift pumps have been updated to include

hardened valve seat to reduce valve wear. The pump also reverts to a

prior use RFI circuit board due to components being

detached and jamming the pump.



Service kit 3990082 was updated to include

3990105 (12V). 3938368 (24V) was superceded to 3990106 (24V), but a kit

was not created to included the jumper harness,

4025182 must be ordered separately.





III. IMPLEMENTATION SUMMARY

The supplier started building pumps with these corrective actions in the

first week of May 2001. The latest lift pumps, part number 3990105 and

3990106 when into production



============

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by RSnaith

DC probably doesn't care much about the LP/Injector pump failures as they don't actually pay for them (the parts anyway. Don't know about the labor side). They are immediately returned back to Cummins, who then kicks it on down to road to Carter and Bosch. This is why Carter hired an independent consultant in Pennsylvania to study the effects of backpressure/long draw on the lift pumps, and Bosch signed onto the study as well. I suspect they are getting tired of footing the bills. The results of this study were supposed to be released this spring.



Rod

Rod just wondering if you know for sure that DC does not pay for warranty coverage on the Cummins or you just think this is true? It just seems strange to me that DC would pay extra for an engine so the manufacture would provide warranty coverage. Little guys do this but normally large corporations like DC would not. Now if I am a big customer like DC, Cummins would be jumping through hoops to figure out why these components were failing. Same with Carter and Bosch jumping through hoops for Cummins. Now they might come back to DC and tell them that part of the problem was where the LP was located, but I would bet that all of these warranty claims are coming out of DC's pocket. Both parts and labor.

 

[EricBu12]

Here is my Fuel system setup. I did this freehand on Photoshop



<img src=https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=4978&width=2/src img>





Here is the Filter Mounted in the hollow of the bed right behind the cab. The top hose is the return from the regulator, the left is the main feed to the Pusher, one of the rights is from the tank and one of them is for the one-way bypass for the pusher pump



<img src=https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=4898&width=2/src img>



Here is the Pusher pump I have mounted on the frame and the one way checkvalve for incase the pusher fails



<img src=https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=4744&width=2/src img>



Pic of Aeromotive Reg. Installed



<img src=https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=4897&width=2/src img>



And a pic of the Regulator itself. Aeromotive # AEI-13301



<img src=https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=4979&width=2/src img>





This setup with the adjustable Regulator is giving me at idle 15PSI, When accel. it drops to 13 or 14 then back to 15 even on freeway. Under WOT it don't go below 13 psi. Flow is increased because of the small head preassure at the filter so even the Pusher pump don't have to work hard.

 

[Ken Dunn]

Behr- Well the problem is solved. It turned out to be a lift pump failure. The local Dodge dealer came out and picked up the truck, R 2 the pump, installed two new ECM upgrades, no numbers from Dodge so If anyone knows, please let me know as I like to keep accurate records, the Dodge people for some reason could not come up with the numbers also?? HMMM? But, the only charge to me was the two computer upgrades, $121 plus tax.

I then drove the truck home, bought a liquid filled pressure gauge, installed it on the "dirty " side of the filter, read 12-13 psi. Ordered a westach gauge from Genos, installed it in the cab, reading 14 psi. Ths gauges sending unit is plumbed into the clean side of the filter. The truck makes the familar "buzzing sound" when I go to start it and it makes more power. I am VERY happy with the gauge from Genos, good instructions, good phone people at the ordering end, answered questions promptly, had a good attitude, and really seemed to give a s... about their job. I LIKE THAT!!

All in all, I'm happy!



Ken

 

[Pit Bull]

Ken that's interesting. So your 5 year 100K warranty was up. What is the emissions warranty on your truck? Mine is 7 years and 70K miles, either your is 7 years and 80K miles or the dealer did you a favor. Now why did they reflash your ECM? Did you ask them to do this? If you didn't I would have a problem with that. They did not need to reflash the ECM to put on a new lift pump. I would question them on that.

 

[JyRO]

No re-flash for me...

When my LP went dead, before I took it in I pulled my diagnostics connector out of its stock position (right shin area) and stuffed it way up under the dash.



Took it to the dealer and they said they would check the diagnostics and charge me something like $75. 00 to do it. I thought to myself, "uh-huh, if you can find the connector that is. " But then went on to verify that if it turned out to be a failed LP that I wouldn't have to pay the diagnostic fee (in the case that they DID find it). They confirmed I would not have to pay if the LP had failed (and I already knew it had).



Got the truck back ($0 charge) and the connector was so well hid, it took me 10 minutes or more to find it myself. There's no way they checked it, and more importantly, they didn't reflash it (correct me if I'm wrong, but that's where they access the computer to reflash, isn't it?). Mine runs so well (with a proper LP) that I didn't want them monkeying with the computer.



- JyRO