Warning to everyone running SS Ladder bars - and most likely all others

[Steve St.Laurent]

One of the guys running a short bed truck had his forward mounts crack (previously mentioned on here) and we replaced those (I contacted all of the other SB ladder bar owners and noone else had any problems - and none reported from LB owners). He contacted me late last week to say that he had cracked the new forward mounts and that his frame was cracking as well. I looked at my frame at the time and saw no cracks (was looking at it from the outside). Today I crawled underneath the truck and to my surprise found that I too had cracks coming from the two lower mounting holes (approximately 3/4" long - 3 cracks radiating from each hole). These cracks can not be seen on the outside of the frame rail.



Another surprise (I should have seen this earlier but for some reason didn't) was that I found that our frames are in two pieces from front to rear and the two sections are riveted together. The forward spring perch mount is attached where the two frame rail sections come together so it's double thickness at that point. I'm having Enterprise Engine get me the email addresses and phone numbers of everyone who has bought the ladder bars thus far so I can contact them and make them aware of the issue. There are a number of ladder bars on order right now and I'm putting them all on hold until I come up with a solution. It seems that this is a weakness in the Dodge frame (man do I hate to say THAT!) and that ALL of the current ladder bar/traction bar setups will be succeptable to this problem. I've been discussing it with mechanical engineer friends of mine since late last week and will be going into the monster truck shop on monday to discuss possible fixes. My current thought is having a 1/4" steel plate that will go on the back side of the frame to spread the load as well as a brace that runs from the outer end of the forward ladder bar mount to the forward spring perch mount.



I just wanted everyone to be aware of this issue ASAP and that I am working on it and will keep you up to date on my findings and possible solutions. I would like to mention again that this is an issue with any and all ladder bar/traction bar setups that attach to the frame forward of the front spring perch mount because of what seems to be a weakness in our frames - IF you have one of my ladder bar setups PLEASE look at your frame and forward mounts! I'll update this thread as more information is available. If you read this and whatever you find please email me at -- email address removed -- with positive or negative results.



-Steve St. Laurent

Supplier of SS Ladder bars



P. S. Here's pics from the SB frame cracks:



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[LSMITH]

Hey Steve, I have not purchased the bars but want to say thanks to you for being a stand up guy and pointing out that there is a possible problem. Integrity is not always easy but is always the right thing to do. This could have been hidden and it was not. Good for you!

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

The front section of the frame is boxed and only . 12" thick. The mid section is welded to the front part, and is something like . 15" thick. It is a fairly complex C section. Both the front and the center parts rely heavily on shape rather than material thickness for strength, and their strength is relative to the normal loads imposed in the normal positions. The rear section is . 25" thick so has significantly more material strength in addition to its strength due to its shape (C section).



You can find some useful guidelines on frame repair, etc. in the factory service manual.



I am not a mechanical engineer, so the following should be subject to further review. It seems that the relatively thin material thicknesses of the front and center sections makes it difficult to attach brackets to them and get strength, lack of undesirable flex, and not interfere with normal flex patterns of the parts under load. The frame has "natural" flex patterns and from you pictures it is not too forgiving of a strong load in one spot where no point load was planned for by the manufacturer. Probably it would be more successful to attach the brackets to the riveted together part where the center and rear sections come together, or to the rear section (which has more material strength vs. strength mostly from shape) near that joint. However, this would make the ladder bars rather short, probably less effective. It would also be critical to replace the rivets with proper, tightly fitting bolts with smooth shanks where they go through the frame sections. I did such successfully years ago when replacing the crossmember of a 1980 Ram with one from a 1981-up. The crossmember was the one at the front hangers for the rear springs. I did the change to use the kicked-up crossmember that allowed mounting the larger 30 gallon fuel tank in place of the 18 gallon used in 1980.



In summary, it seems that it would be desirable to find a way to spread the load somewhat and to attach to the frame in a place where material strength is high and minimal material flex occurs or is allowed by Dodge. Perhpas you could design a crossmember to mount the ladder bars and maybe serve as a driveshaft loop/retainer as well.



Hope this helps. Sorry to read about this problem and I hope you can resolve it with minimal hassle.

 

[DiTrani]

Steve, if the attachment scheme is how I'm picturing it, then adding a plate to the back, and if possible the front, should be all the fix you need, so long as the frame can take the compression needed to distribute the load. This is a classic fix for this kind of problem.



Good luck and kudos for facing the problem head-on. If I'd bought the bars from you I'd be willing to pay additionally for a plate kit to make it stonger.

 

[The patriot]

I didnt purchase your bars Steve, but it takes a standup guy to do this.

Thanks.

Eric

 

[Todd T]

you are one straight-up dude Steve. way to go!!



its safe to say some manufacturers would apply a tail light warranty here.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

I have absolutely no idea how this is installed or designed but why can't you brace it fore and aft with round tubing that is welded to small plates welded to the frame to distribute the load. If any of you have a pic of the setup post it, I'd like to take a look at it.



Jim

 

[StakeMan]

Good straight up customer service. You get an at-a-boy from me, and I don't even have your SS bars.

 

[ZEEEW]

Cracking would most likely be worse if you started welding to the frame, because of the embrittlement around the heat zone.

If you could heat treat the frame after welding, you could weld a plate in the mounting area, to help distribute the load.

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Steve St. Laurent

... It seems that this is a weakness in the Dodge frame (man do I hate to say THAT!) and that ALL of the current ladder bar/traction bar setups will be succeptable to this problem. ...

The Dodge frame *is* weak. That's been known for quite some time. It's why we don't see many Ram wreckers.



If I may suggest, you might want to talk to folks who strengthen these frames for heavier-duty use. They should be able to tell you, even show you, exactly what needs to be done. And IIRC, there was someone here in TDR who had his truck so modified to increase the GVWR to over 10K; if he's reading this, he might pipe up with some pointers.



Fest3er

 

[griggsd]

Steve & Enterprise,



Appreciate the heads-up on a potential problem. Your timely alert simply reinforces my decision to pursue these bars. Looking forward to its solution & delivery of the next production run.



R/ griggsd

 

[Old Man]

One First Class Person

I would like to echo what the other members have stated. Thanks, goes to you for being so honest and bringing it to every-ones attention. You have helped us so many times in the past and I look forward for your comments and suggestions in the future. Philip

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

TTT - thanks for the positive comments guys. I have noticed though that noone that's responded so far has bought the bars - I sure hope you guys aren't overly mad at me.



-Steve

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

I'm not mad

Sickly doesn't have any need for the bars, and for the kind of off-roading/hunting trips I use him for, I felt the bars might be a bad idea (extreme suspension flex). I'm so old I'm used to buckboard suspensions.

I even remember the first gen leaf spring front suspension and how stiff that was So. the stock Dodge suspension was a big step up for me.



I hope you get the ladder bars worked out, because they are a great idea for some Rammers. I saw your video and all that smoke Maybe that is why you have a problem and the more "reasonable" users of the ladder bars don't :--)

You could defuel so the bars don't get flexed so much

 

[BLACKRAM]

I guess it is time to crawl under the truck and take a look!



Some of the cracking may be the result of your famous "launches".



Steve, I will let you know if the situation exists on my shortbed. Since I was your prototype QC, I would have them the longest period of time, but I don't run ET's to stress the product.

 

[Steve Campbell]

Joseph Donnelly

2002 posts and this is the first time I think I have ever heard you mention de-fueling.

 

[Amianthus]

Those are mine.

Just an FYI for you guys.



The frame that's cracking is mine. Those are the pictures I sent Steve to alert him to this problem. We're working on some solutions to fix it right now. Although, I must say that Joe Donnelly's suggestion of a cross member mount does sound intriguing. I may have to look into that. Thanks Joe.



Anyway, the mount issue was also brought to Steve's attention by me. I've gone through my second set. Perhaps there IS such a thing as too much power.



As for the adulations for Steve, I woulda been surprised at anything less. He's been really good about getting back to me on the fixes and solutions for these bars. As stated, he's a standup guy and wants this project to succeed.



If any of you have these bars are going to IA for the dyno run and want them inspected, let me know. I have plenty of material to do the inspections for you. Repair is a whole nuther issue. If anyone runs into this problem, and needs repair advice, feel free to contact me (or Steve).



Aron (Amianthus)

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Ooooohhhhhh nnnnooooooo. Just because I "mentioned" defueling, with a wink, y'all will notice, doesn't mean I would EVER recommend such a radical, cruel procedure :--)













I guess I just HAD to mention it, in case someone didn't really DESERVE the power



I am truly distressed :{ that anyone would even think I might do that myself I feel truly chastised that I could even use such a word, me, a veteran poster with over 2000 posts

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

The problem with Joe's suggestion of mounting the ladder bars to the area of the frame that is double thick at the front spring perch is that the geometry wouldn't work. The bars have to be quite a bit longer than the front half of the springs in order for the axle to be able to move and rotate rearward in relation to the chassis to allow full suspension movement. I'll have more info on monday after talking with the shop and on Wednesday will be repairing my frame and installing at least a partial fix. The frame repair will entail stop drilling the end of the crack with a . 125 drill bit and then using a grinder to V out the cracks, then welding the cracks up and grinding the welds back down. Right now my plan for the reinforcement is to use 1/4" plate steel on each side of the frame to sandwich the frame and spread the load over a larger area - that will probably withstand the stress all by itself. But I'm also going to attempt to tie in the outer end of the ladder bar back to the forward spring perch mount as well which will create a boxed unit that would completely eliminate any possible flex in the forward mount. I may have to just install the doubler plates this week and finish the brace after next weekend - the first race of the season is next weekend in Maryland and I'm not gonna miss it! So far BTW, noone has reported any cracks in their frame other than Aaron and myself. I didn't put Aaron's name on the first post because I wasn't sure if he wanted his name put out there.



P. S. Joe <-------- SMACK #ad
- DEFUEL???, what were you thinkin!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

[Sled Puller]

I have seen lots of Ram wreckers, Fester, another Ford rumor you fell for!!

Ford wreckers are cheaper.



I don't think a few minor splits around something that is not supposed to be there is proof of a weak frame.



Could happen on any frame.

Also, I have seen lesser ladder bars do some REAL damage to frames, and axles.

Be interesting to see if any others do this.