Competition Water Injection (Pulling setups)

[RyanB]

Well, with the year almost over and a few extra $$$ in my pocket and my truck now totally complete exept for the odd preformance mod I was looking into Water Injection this week for the Pull truck.



I have a Snow Stage 2 (220psi) kit that I have yet to install but was thinking it is probably going to be on the small side.



Just wondering what most of you guys are running for water on the track? I know that BBD was running two Snow Kits piggy backed together but was thinking of a different mechanical system.



I was talking Haisleys this week about there system and from the sounds of it the electrical system might be a good setup? Anyone else have any experiance with there system?



Van said that because I already have the bent injection lines for water nozels I could run there 6 nozel setup and drill and tap them right into the head (they put 4 in the head) and then one other nozel mounts as close to the manifold mounted turbo as possible and the other injector mounted between the two turbo's..... honestly I didn;t know that you could run water thru the turbo...



He said there system on average is run at 600psi but can be turned to 800. He said that at 600 psi there is nothing but vapor comming out of the nozels and is what you want. He said that the Snow kits and others with low PSI don't have enough pressure to vaporize.



So does anyone have any experiance with this system or others?



Thanks... RyanB

 

[jwilliams3]

If Van said that then its probably right on.

 

[wildmanben]

if the snow kits dont vaporize, then why do they work so well then on many proven trucks?

 

[jwilliams3]

I seen how well it worked for BBD!

 

[nwpadmax]

I was talking to Snow about this just the other day. They say there are two lines of thought:



1) Inject as close as possible to the cylinder. Essentially you inject droplets of sufficient size that they do not vaporize until the compression / combustion event. They refer to this as the "steam engine effect" where the expansion of water is harnessed to create more cylinder pressure, and thus gain torque. Here you would prefer a coarser mist.



2) Inject much further back in the system with droplets that vaporize. The heat required to vaporize the droplets cools the intake charge and that's it. The densification of the air makes for more air to burn. Here you would want a very fine mist.



These are Snow's theories, not mine, so don't shoot the messenger regardless of how much fun that might be :-laf



I'm on the fence as to which works best in what situation. I will say that I was only asking about power gains and was not centering at all on EGT reduction.



Any wisdom you guys could add would be great.



And on the other subject of injecting water into the charger compressor, yes it has been done on gassers for some time now. The old AquaMist forum had tons of info on it, and the debate raged endlessly on how much damage it did to the impeller tips. There was some general agreement that if the spray was fine enough and was kinda directed at the center of the shaft instead of directly on the blades, that the impellers could handle it OK. YMMV.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

I didn't ever think about it, but yeah, I'd imagine water in front of the turbine would probably protect it from the plasma-cutting EGT's they see!

 

[RyanB]

if the snow kits dont vaporize, then why do they work so well then on many proven trucks?

Thats the thing... they do work great on a street truck and if the Street class could use water on the pulling track you would probably see alot of those trucks have the snow kits but in the Supper Street and the Modified class... the pressures arn't enough. Think about the difference with 40lbs of boost and 150psi or 220psi (snow kits) and then 100lbs+ boost the mods put out... they need alot higher pump PSI than the snow kits... so I think anyway.



Van said that you don't want any water dropplets because they will never compress. He said that if you can inject water vapor (which there high PSI pumps can do) it will alot better.





Also, like I said above... Scott (BBD) told me a while back that he was going to a bigger system than the two Snow Kits... didn't talk to him much about it but I am sure he will let us all know why once he reads this post.



RyanB

 

[Jim Fulmer]

I've been running a Snow system along time as I did the initial R&D for the Diesel's back when he just did gassers. The system is simple, cheap and will do the right thing on almost all trucks. It will work the best when matched with an intercooler... ... my opinion.



If a guys is going to run big boost, I mean big boost and no intercooler then a bigger system might just be in order here. What Van is saying about running allot of pressure is absolutely correct, think about a smaller system running at 60 psi and you truck is making 40 psi of boost, what is the water coming out at..... 20 psi!



This the very reason on mine that I went to 2 pumps, run one with two nozzles at max pressure (I only get 195) and a single pump/single nozzle for the third (it runs at 260 or so). Now with the single I just run the one pump, two nozzle setup and the third doesn't gain me anything that I can tell.



Ryan most people don't want to invest that much money in a system, or need that big of one. That's why there is a market for the smaller ones!



Merry Christmas, Jim

 

[John_P]

Ryan:



I have had both the Snow Water System and now Scheids Water Injection System on my 1996 Dodge CTD 12 valve. Scheids Water System is pretty close if not the same as what Van is running. As Van told you their newer systems do put out alot more pressure and that is good.



When Scheid did my rebuild here recently they installed one of their earlier systems for me along with the four (4) nozzles which inject the water right into the cylinders through the cylinder head. My system is set at about 420 psi right now and I can tell you that with the water on and during WOT throttle runs both at the drag strip and on the dyno that I have not seen temperatures above 1200 degrees so far! Without the water I will easily peg my EGT gauge at 1800 degrees!!



Prior to Scheid Diesel installing their system, I had the Snow System with two (2) 625 ml. nozzles installed in my air horn and just one pump. While the system did a great job, it did not keep the engine as cool as this Scheid System has primarily because of what the other members have already pointed out on pressure, volume, number and size of pumps etc.



In engine dyno testing with my 12 valve engine @ Scheids we found that with the Snow System the cylinder temperatures were pretty good in the middle (cylinders 2, 3 and 4) but in cylinders 1,5 and 6) the temperatures were much too high. This goes along the lines of what Jim has pointed out.

IMO,... . the water was just not getting distributed "evenly" enough to keep all six (6) cylinders cool. However, to be fair to the Snow System, adding another pump and some more nozzles like Jim has could combat those issues.

Matt Snow is a great guy and helped me out alot when I first installed his system.



Hope this has helped you some Ryan. Good luck.



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John_P

 

[RyanB]

JohnP- Thanks for the help. One thing I didn't talk to Van about was where the wholes were drilled in the head. He had talked about only having 4 nozzles in the head and that 1&2 and 5&6 share them and 3&4 each get there own. Where abouts are they actually getting put then though? must be in the runners where both ports are still together. Anyone have any pictures?



Also, do you have a six nozzle setup or just running the 4? still curious about the one inbetween the turbo's. I could just imagine what water dropplets or vapor would do to the turbo wheel turning at 100,000rpm!



One other question... what kind of switch are you running for the system? Van said that have tried everything from boost switches, hobbs style switches but have found the best thing for pulling is to just have a full throttle switch that only activates when the pedal is to the medal!



Jim- I totally under stand your comment about there being a market for the smaller systems and I no doubt bet they work awsome and thats why I bought mine in the first place... my brother will have it now for his.



Its just that I have had a hard time finding any info on these larger setups.



Oh, one other thing... anyone know what kind of volume both these setups put out... just out of couriosity??? Van told me that with his mechanical setup that runs off of the engine (where the power steering/vacum pump used to be) is setup to use 5 quarts of water in 300 feet... thats ALOT of water!!! makes me wonder how much fuel is going thru it also.



RyanB

 

[John_P]

Ryan:



Hey buddy, you are very welcome on the help!



Ryan, I have the four (4) nozzle system in my truck set-up the way you have described in your last post. As far as arming the system and controlling it, right now I have a "on-off" toggle switch to turn the water system on. Once it is "on" I have a Hobbs switch set to come on when I hit 20lbs. or more of boost. I also have a wide open throttle switch installed but have not hooked it up yet as the system works well for me like it is. Van is right though, the full throttle switch is probably one of the better ways to hook up the system.



You also asked about water volume with my system. I don't have the exact numbers but I will find out for you. However, I can tell you that in my runs down the drag strip recently, I have found that I am using a little over 1/2 gallon of water in 11. 5-12 seconds! I guess we could put a pencil to that and come up with some figures huh?? :-laf



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John_P

 

[FUL POWER]

I am thinking of getting the scheid full system for my truck. Its the same one that haisley sells. But i think that im going to get computer controller also. Does anyone have that on their truck. It looks like a sweet set up but by the time i'm done, its hard to think of spending 3,000 on just water injection.

 

[RyanB]

Ful Power - That system you are talking about was another thing I asked Van about. He said that for me it would probably be a waste of money and that once I am set up with a Data recorder it might be a good idea but for now the normal setup will be just fine. $3000 is a big chuck on change to shell out just for water!!!



RyanB

 

[FUL POWER]

I was told that it is better to go with the computer with a single charger. i run alot of fuel with a 2. 8 charger. Twins dont change temp as much as a single charger set up does. I would be cool but the price hurts alot. Were do you end. how big is the electronic water injection system... Od you like it can you tell me some details about it before i make the big plunge

 

[JDailey]

What 2. 8 class do you run that allows water?

 

[smokinrod]

MFSTPA does

 

[JDailey]

W T F is MFSTPA?

 

[RyanB]

W T F is MFSTPA?

Alright, back to the topic... does anyone else have any experiance with these larger Water Injection systems????

 

[John_P]

FUL POWER:



To answer your question, yes, I believe the systems that Scheid and Van use are almost the same, but you could give Van a call and ask him for sure.



Hope this helps you some.



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John_P

 

[JHellmann]

I don't have any experience with those two but I have put together my own. It puts out 550 psi which is probably a minimum pressure you would want. I can infinitely control the egt's by changing the nozzle size. All the cylinders are real close to the same as temps go. I'm sure this has to do with what kind of manifold your using. My head is drilled and tapped for nozzles but I've never injected there.