Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) water injection

[John_P]

DBraunig:



As I said above, with my timing above 20 degrees I was NOT able to get rid of the detonation on my truck, so I quit adding the methanol and now just run distilled water. No more problems for me. I need the water to cool my EGTS anyway. You guys will have to try maybe lowering your timing some if you get the detonation like I did. That should help, but may not eliminate it.



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John_P

 

[DBraunig]

John,



I am about to put water on my truck (Snow III), mostly for the cooling also, but the 50+ hp the meth promises would be nice as well. This thread caught my eye, especially the detonation. I run 20+* now, the truck is really clean and the advance helps egt a lot. I would hate to have to drop the timing back to run a 50/50 mix. But, i guess the meth advances the burn anyway and less timing would help cylinder pressure. I'll find out soon enough i guess



Dave

 

[BigBadDodge]

When I talked to Matt he told me that you will get max cooling with a 12 to 15% methanol mix, more cooling then runing just straight water yet not enough to cause detonation or any other issues. If I were towing and just wanted the reduction in EGT's that is what I would use.



BBD

 

[John_P]

BBD:



Thanks for your input! I had hoped Jim Fulmer would get on here to help these guys a little on the percentages with the methanol, but so far he hasn't.



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DBraunig:



As I recall, I was at about a 20% mixture on both windshield wiper fluid and the pure methanol, and that was where I heard my detonation. I dropped it down to a 15% mixture and my truck still had the detonation noise, but not quite as bad. It scared me,... ... so after that I quit using it.



I know that I have heard claims from some of the 3rd Gen guys that in those newer engines with "variable engine timing" and NOT mechanical timing like we have on our 12 valves, that they run as much as a 40% mixture in their newer trucks! There is no doubt that methanol will help the power, but the one drawback is the fact that the methanol will "cook-off" before diesel fuel will in the hot cylinders and thus the detonation occurs. At least that is my understanding on it. As I said I am no expert here. :-laf



I think if you install the system and just do some experimenting on the mixtures, you can probably come up with a solution that will work for you.



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John_P

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Dave I guess my truck is different, not real sure! I run washer fluid at all times just like people that don't use Water Injection. Most of the fluid is 25-30% methanol as per the MSDS sheet! I will run that until I either think I need it richer or go to the dyno, then I will run 50/50 but we are not putting that much liquid in with the Snow systems. Mine uses (2) 625ml nozzles and the pump runs at 190 psi - the boost of 45 = 155 psi effective. If I tap into and turn on the second pump with a single nozzle it doesn't make any more power using the single charger and it sounds odd, not bad but odd. This might be what John is hearing.



John, how and what is your system setup like, it might just flow that much more fluid than mine.



Jim

 

[John_P]

Jim:



Thanks alot for coming in here to help these guys out. I know you have done alot more R&D with the "Snow Water System" than myself or many others here.



Jim, I don't have the Snow System on my 96' anymore, But when I did, I was running the two (2) 625 ml. nozzles just like you. I had both of mine in the air horn, spread apart one kind of at each end of the air horn. I only used one pump on my Snow System.



I now have one of Scheid Diesel's earlier Water Injection Systems close to what they installed on many of the pulling trucks a few years ago. Scheid Diesel machined four (4) of their nozzles right into my cylinder head, so now the water is going right into the cylinders directly from the head. Brad Ingram told me that the system is "set" right now at about 420psi. They can adjust that, but I don't really need it as under WOT conditions I can barely hit 1200 degrees on EGT's. Without the water on, I can hit 1750-1800 pretty easily, so on my truck, I HAVE to have the water on. While drag racing my truck, I will use about 1/2 gallon of water in one 1/4 mile run. If that sounds like alot, I am told that the big pulling pickups use close to or a little over a gallon of water in a 300ft. run!



I compare the sound I hear (which I believe is "detonation") at higher RPM to that you would hear in a gas vehicle that is "pinging" or has "spark knock" from say too low an octane fuel. IMO,..... it is a scary sound! After I stopped using the methanol, the sound completely went away.



Hope this "explanation" has helped some. Again,... . my thanks to you for getting on here to help these guys Jim!



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John_P

 

[WaynesWorld]

now how carfull do i have to be with the head gasket? and why do i have to be. does the water/meth system make it easyer to blow? and if i did just the water injection do i have to be as carfull? sorry for all the questions just trying to figure this one out

Ahopper,



You must be careful of the amount of meth. you run. The more explosive meth. is going to create a big bang that you don't want. :{

Use the windshield washer mix, it tends to be about 35% mixture.



WAYNES WORLD

 

[Ahopper]

so if i use the widshield washer fluid is it safe to say it will give me a little more power and it wont blow my head gasket? also what does anyone think about this kit is it any different from your snow or cooling mist kit?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/WATE...013QQitemZ230076434910QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

 

[MMcCallie]

Water Detonation

Detonation can occur even when injecting straight water. Proper injection is more dependent upon tuning than what mix of alcohol you are using. If i were to install my kit running water only, on anyone's engine, and have it inject too much, too soon, detonation would occur.



The addition of alcohol would mean i'd have to adjust the injection, likely having to wait until higher EGTs, RPMs and boost levels are achieved to reap the benefits. If the newer kits run by temperature and boost readings allow user adjustability that is good because i always want to have complete control. I prefer windshield washer fluid for more consistency and less need for adjustment.



Water/methanol injection is definitely worth the investment. The fact that it cleans up NOx emissions makes it a moral responsibility. It is a low cost power additive. Worst thing is how thirsty your truck will be. Diesel engines love water/methanol injection and will make the liquid disappear gallons at a time. Tune it right and you'll be very happy.

 

[pwerwagn]

The be cool kits arent bad for the price. Im not a huge fan of using check valves instead of hobbs/solenoids, but to each his own.



Be cool sells their nozzles in cc, one cc is the same thing as a mL. You could go with a 800cc or so nozzle, but I bet the atomization wouldnt be desireable.

FWIW, snow uses 2 625's, with a 220 psi pump. if your running over 40psi, the 150psi pump will only be like a 100psi pump. Ask be cool what pressure their injectors are rated at. If they are rated at say 300cc/150psi, it will flow much less on your truck since there is only a pressure difference of 100-110 psi or so.



Ive talked to the guys at be cool many times, they are nice to talk too. In fact, all of the injection companies have pretty knowledgeable guys working for them (Snow perf and Devils own are my faves... coolingmist, aquamist, be cool, etc are all decent though).



Just remember, you get what you pay for!!!!



--Jeff

 

[Ahopper]

will a 100 psi pump be enough to just cool down the etgs and give a little more power? im just worried about my head gasket

 

[MMcCallie]

I would go with a 150 psi pump for more flexibility if you want to make future upgrades. Bigger injectors, higher pump pressures, and higher mixtures of alcohol are really more for increased power than better cooling. Your head gasket should be safe regardless of pump/injector pressure as long as you don't dump too much at too low an RPM.



Once the air in your manifold is hot enough at higher RPMs, you won't have to worry about proper atomization. With your timing around 16 degrees, you should be OK. If you have detonation you will hear it and shortly following, feel it too. You can always disconnect if it is worrisome, or just back things off since most new kits are adjustable via knobs on potentiometers.

 

[Ahopper]

ok so i ender up buying this kit. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...MEWN:IT&viewitem=&item=250071354512&rd=1&rd=1 . i was wondering, am i going to need to get two new hobbs switches. at what boost should the first and second stage come on? are these pressuses to low for my truck i probly should have looked into this befor i bid on it . anything would help. also he didnt tell me what size nozzles i am getting . what should i be running? keeping in mind that i really do not want to blow the head gasket. :{

 

[John_P]

Ahopper:



On the E-bay link you posted, it says in the "Description of Product" Section that Stage 1 will come on at 4lbs and the second stage at 14lbs. The seller used the word "psi", but I think he means "lbs. of boost" as that is the way both of my systems work. I am not real familiar with that system, but if the system has a "controller" like Snow's does, you "set" the controller to come on at a given setting (say 15lbs. of boost) by turning a small screw on the back of the controller. Then there is another screw which would set the "full on" or "maximium setting" which can come on later say at 25-30lbs of boost.

If the system you bought come on at 4lbs. I would say that is a little low to start for the reasons the other TDR Members have brought up in earlier posts.

If "Be Cool's" Water System does not use a "controller" then yes,..... you will have to have the Hobbs Switches to turn the water on.



TDR Member "pwerwagn" gave you some good advice in his post about how "Be Cool" measures their water nozzles. I know that when I had my Snow System that I used two (2) 625ml nozzles staggered and inserted into the air horn and that sized nozzle would cut the EGT about 250-300 degrees.

IMO, the size and number of the nozzles will depend alot on how much fuel you have going to your engine,..... in other words how hot does your truck get under WOT WITHOUT the water on.



Hope this has helped you some Ahopper!



Good luck.



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John_P

 

[Ahopper]

thanks John_p.

under wot with no wasgate i can hit 1200-1300 pretty easily. i have never taken it past that but i know i could. now wher do you put the nozzles in at? is the air horn after the intercooler wher it hooks up to the manifold? i have a feeling that the kit is not going to get any directions with it.

 

[John_P]

Ahopper:



Yes, the "air horn" or air intake is that metal/aluminum piece that sits right in the middle of the engine, more towards the drivers side which has the "cool side" (driver side) intercooler air hose/pipe attached to it. It also has the grid heater assembly attached to it near the bottom where it connects to the top of cylinder head. On my Snow System, I drilled the holes on the BACK side of that air horn and spaced them out accordingly. I think some of the guys also put nozzles in BEFORE the intercooler too. You might want to P. M. Jim Fulmer as I think he has played around with this a little more than I have.

I did get good results placing my nozzles in the air horn though.



Hope this helps you some and also hope I was able to explain it O. K. for you.



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John_P

 

[Tom C]

Very good information here I've been thinking of adding the water injection but don't want to blow the head gasket. Seems most will say to keep the timing under 16. 5* and boost under 30 to keep it from blowing.



Correct me if I'm wrong - the combustion timing should advance do to the meth will burn faster than diesel fuel in the hot cylinders. Correct?



If so then what would be the calculated timing advancement (since the mixture should detonate prior to when diesel alone will detonate) be for say a 30% mix?



just wondering if putting the timing back to stock (14*) then adding the water/meth will keep cylinder pressure spike under what the equivalent spike at 16. 5* on pure diesel would be... This make sense?

 

[Jim Fulmer]

I drilled the holes on the BACK side of that air horn and spaced them out accordingly. I think some of the guys also put nozzles in BEFORE the intercooler too. You might want to P. M. Jim Fulmer as I think he has played around with this a little more than I have.

In the intake horn like John was saying seems to be the best place.



Jim

 

[WaynesWorld]

In the intake horn like John was saying seems to be the best place.



Jim

Jim,



What do you set the two stage to come in at as to not to drown out the fire?

I'll be trying 20 & 40 with top boost about48. Does this sound close with 50%. ?



WAYNES WORLD

 

[joaker]

I apologize in advance for posting here... but all this talk of detonation and such, would it be as prevalent on my 24v? I think it would be beneficial in terms of cooling for me, as my egt's are pretty crazy now... thanks.