We are a nation of sheep, Animal Farm, part 2

[Power Wagon]

I guess, as they say, a man convinced without facts cannot be swayed with them.



Every country you name has a national debt which exceeds our per capita national debt by multiples. Canada being the least, and their national debt per person is double ours. In EVERY country you mentioned, health care is rationed, not by your choice, but what you can and cannot recieve, is fixed by someone who is not even a doctor, but some beaurocrat who isn't even elected, and has no liability whether you live or die. I see your point now. This does reduce the undesireable population.



In some countries (Canada not being one), you can, if you have the money, get services the government either cannot afford, or has been rationed. These are generally extremely expensive private institutions where the wealthy go and get anything they need. Otherwise, you live with whatever these uncaring SOB's choose to give you. AT least here, you have a choice. And many thousands of Canadians drive across the border to the US and use our medical system to get services denied them - usually related to childbirth, cancer treatment, or heart surgery - life saving stuff. And they pay for it entirely out of their own pocket, with their dramatically weak dollars.



Every country you mentioend has unemployment rates we would consider to be "depression" levels, but they consider it normal. Of course, who's complaining. The few who do work pay for everyone else to not work. Again, I see your point. Tired of working are you?



In Sweden and Denmark, the average person requires government assistance to buy a home, provide childcare, and often buy food. Not "unemployed" or "low income". Average. They live in a state of true poverty - that being, unable to provide their basic necessities for themselves on an average income.



I know, I know. You see these people and their totally spineless and weak politics, who cannot imagine having the stress of having to provide for thier own needs and be self-sufficient. You see that "ease" as being good. I have no desire to live in a nation of spineless and dependent people. I especially resent your demands to make them so. I love my kids, and have tried to teach them that they are tougher than anything life can dish out. And people like you come along and teach them they are helpless fools who's only salvation is the idiocy of government control.



And you wonder why I react with hostility...



I am not only hostile, but downright violently opposed to the concepts you're promoting here. They are the ideas of defeatism, dependency, weakness, and victimization. Socialism is the opiate of the ignorant and the creator of the weak and fearful.



There is a reason we are the one superpower of the world, and that is because we ARE NOT like them... and I want to stay that way.



Edit... .



I'm sorry, CF, I really don't mean to get personal with you. I just tend to get really perturbed over these things. My wife works in the health care profession, and I see your ideas as being a horrible detriment to it... as does she.

 

[Champane Flight]

First

First let me say I am not tired of working. I have been unemployed for a total of three months since 1970 and I have never had to back up to a paycheck. I am not afraid of ANY job and have worked many jobs just to make ends meet.



I am tired of having to pay for healthcare insurance that does not cover squat. I am also tired of waiting while every welfare mom brings their children in for snotty noses go ahead of me at the local hospital. I am tired of insurance companys who regulate(much like your so called poor socialised medicine of Canada)what you can have under coverage and what you can't have. I have been to the doctor one time in the last three years for a sinus infection and had to pay cash for it,yet I pay over 200. 00 a month for insurance!!!!!!Thats a fact!



Uninformed,I think not. I have three nurses and two doctors in my family. Of the nurses in my family one is a DRG/QA coordinater. She tells the doctors what Medicaid and Medicare will cover,the extra cost of said procedure is carried to the paying customer!One of the doctors in my family is getting ready to move to Canada because of the high cost of malpractice insurance. My cousin is practicing with four other doctors so they all can afford the extra cost. My daughter in-laws can tell you all kinds of horror stories of treatment denials because of non-coverage.....



For some reason you believe that health care under socialized medicine is rationed. Is it better to have only the poor and the rich have medical care?In Canada the doctors and hospitals do not just deny care. They do what is called priorty scheduling. It takes the people who are the worst off medicaly and treats them first. This does tend to pi$$ off the wealthier paitents. Then they come to the states and whine about the poor healthcare system in Canada.



Now I am NOT saying that socialized medicine does not have its problems. I am also NOT saying it would be a cure all to our healthcare problems. I am saying it would be a site better than the system we have now.



I would like to retire to the self employed ranks in four years. With the cost of medical insurance,I will not be able to do it. I could always go to the VA... ... ... . Oh I forgot I still would be making to much money for the VA... ... ... Nowadays the only people using the VA are non-vet indigent... ... ... . Maybe I could just lie and get Medicaid... ... ... .



Your pride is showing,of course pride is nothing more than an over opinion of ones self... ... No wonder other countrys see us as pompus... ... . Capitalists need some socialists just to keep em honest!!!!!Of course some would want to do away with the middle class... ... .

 

[The patriot]

Re: Several.

Originally posted by Champane Flight

We had a speed trap nearby here. The locals borrowed a old semi-trailer and parked it on private property near the highway. Painted with "LOOK OUT,SPEED TRAP AHEAD!!!!"in bright colors. The city officials finally changed their habits... . There are other ways to voice your and others disaproval besides our legal system. Maybe a little cheaper in the long run to.

Oh man. If that poor soul did something like that here, he'd be in for a world of s%!t. You dont go and take $$$ out of the local gub-ment's mouth like that without serious consequences.



Eric

 

[mdlowry]

I had lived in a suburb of Detroit for 21 years (until I joined the Navy). The city I lived in had a cop who's only job was to write parking tickets! Do these guys work on a commision?

PW, I'm with you on the health care issue. I've already had the oppertunity to experience free government health care. There were several complaints around in the Navy about the system (ie, no "bedside manners" required--they can't be fired anyways). There were some good people there, but there were some that just wouldn't make it if there was a choice of going somewhere else.

What a wonderful system. God Bless America ! Let's go for it ! More tickets! More points on licenses! More land closures! More government-imposed restrictions on everything! We need meters on commodes, so we can pay a tax every time we flush !
Let's drop the speed limit to 45 MPH, make it easy for the cops! They're the good guys, we don't want them to have it too hard, do we?!?!
Let's go back and find something else to take away from the Indians! Find some more churches and "cults" to burn down !
We need more taxes, so that no able-bodied minority regardless of race or handicap, ever has to work again !
Shut off the Alaska Pipeline, diesel prices are getting too low again !

What I would like to know is what is it going to take for the sheeple to wake up? As it is I belive about half of your pay goes to the government (income tax, sales tax, medicade, social security, property tax, liscensing, registration, and all the hidden taxes (ie fuel tax)). This is before they get you for all those fines you just mentioned. I think I had read somewhere that when the founding fathers were upset with England over taxes the government was taking about 5 or 10%. If 10% or so is enough for them to get mad about why are we just accepting it with a few complaints every now and the (esp around April)?

To top the taxes, just look at some of the other things our government has done for us. There were those dangerous people over in Waco, TX that may not have registered a firearm (and paid the tax on it). No one was held accountable for that (I guess it was just an accident). I heard somewhere the people responsibe have been promoted since. We point to Nazi Germany and ask why did they let this happen. I guess were on our way to finding out.

Michael

 

[Bill Lins]

Re: First

Originally posted by Champane Flight



I would like to retire to the self employed ranks...

Two things, CF.



First, if you ever make it to the ranks of the self-employed, you'll find it is anything BUT retirement- you'll work harder and longer than you ever have before if you intend to be successful at it.



Secondly, if you make it, you'll lose all of your socialist tendencies very quickly! Best of luck.

 

[BFC]

Here I go........

I wasn't going to get into this but now I have to... . I'm originally from Canada, moved to the US 4 years ago. I have no possibility of health care insurance due to my profession(professional skydiving instuctor) I've been injured in an airplane crash last March and I'm swimming(more like drowning) in medical bills, you think I miss socialized medicine... ... ... ... ... . HELL NO. From the get go they new I didn't have ANY insurance, they still took my broken *** on the chopper, I got the same care in the trauma ER like anybody else and was in surgery within minutes. They fixed me up and said we'll worry about money later.



CF,



your perspective of the Canadian health care system is wrong

I am also tired of waiting while every welfare mom brings their children in for snotty noses go ahead of me at the local hospital.

Now add to that drunks, lonely elderlys and people in need of attention. Cut the ER beds and doctors in half and you have a sense fo a Canadian ER.

They do what is called priorty scheduling. It takes the people who are the worst off medicaly and treats them first.

They call that elective treatment. Example, last spring my dad suffered a mild heart attack, he had to wait 8 months for a QUADRUPLE bypass and that was AFTER he had a heart attack, he wasn't considered urgent since he lived through it!

yet I pay over 200. 00 a month for insurance

How does 41 to 51% income tax (Federal/provincial) depending on your income, 17% sales on EVERYTHING(exept meats and fresh produce) you buy and gas at 2. 80$/G sounds? Don't forget 8% social security. whitch if your income(401K,pension, interest on life savings and stocks, business you own) exeed 32 000/year when your 65 or over you don't get benefits.

One of the doctors in my family is getting ready to move to Canada because of the high cost of malpractice insurance.

Insurance cost in Canada I skyrockecting for physician but their salaries are still capped by the goverment, regardless of services provided (# patients) Think that is good incentive for Doctors to work over time and see more patients? Remember it's free... ... (overcrowding)



PW,

In some countries (Canada not being one), you can, if you have the money, get services the government either cannot afford, or has been rationed. These are generally extremely expensive private institutions where the wealthy go and get anything they need.

Not true anymore, certain services have already been allowed to be provided by private entreprise for a fee, not covered by goverment or private insurance and the list of services offered is getting longer everyday.



I have seen and experience both sides of the coin and let me tell you that we are lucky to have this kind of healthcare level and service in the US. Is it perfect, far from it. But let me tell you that expecting the goverment to handle it and expecting better is downright foolish. Socialized medecine is an utopian idea that will never work.



In my opinion legislation to make it illegal for insurance companies to deny coverage solly based on your job or hobby and activities and making it mandatory for employers(even those who use contractors) to provided some level of healthcare coverage would go a long way in making this system better. What would happen to premiums you say? That what a free economy is for, competition!



Doc sorry for the novel, just get some granny glasses . I've just broken my personnal best for being long winded I guess. Thanks for reading and baring with me.



Off the soap box,



Glenn

 

[BRobertson]

I'f socialized medicine works so well in Canada WHY do the Canadians that can afford it have their major surgeries in the U. S. ????????

Bob

 

[Bill Lins]

Say it ain't so!

Glenn- you say you can't get health insurance just because you willingly jump out of perfectly good, properly functioning aircraft for a living? Who'da thunk it?

 

[Power Wagon]

Re: First

Originally posted by Champane Flight

First let me say I am not tired of working. I have been unemployed for a total of three months since 1970 and I have never had to back up to a paycheck. I am not afraid of ANY job and have worked many jobs just to make ends meet.



For some reason you believe that health care under socialized medicine is rationed. Is it better to have only the poor and the rich have medical care?In Canada the doctors and hospitals do not just deny care. They do what is called priorty scheduling. It takes the people who are the worst off medicaly and treats them first. This does tend to pi$$ off the wealthier paitents. Then they come to the states and whine about the poor healthcare system in Canada.



Now I am NOT saying that socialized medicine does not have its problems. I am also NOT saying it would be a cure all to our healthcare problems. I am saying it would be a site better than the system we have now.



Your pride is showing,of course pride is nothing more than an over opinion of ones self... ... No wonder other countrys see us as pompus... ... . Capitalists need some socialists just to keep em honest!!!!!Of course some would want to do away with the middle class... ... .

Well, I have been unemployed. When I got married, the wife and I both worked at jobs that were within $. 50 of minimum wage. We got on welfare. We did a lot of things to "let" the government help us. It was the worst, the dumbest, the most wrong-headed thing I ever did.



Not to accept help. I was grateful for the help, and never cheated to get more or anything like that, but to begin thinking that government help is really any help at all. It wasn't. Although it paid the bills, it warped the way I saw the world. I began to see it as me vs "the system", and because I simply did not understand how to benefit myself in the world, I got to be a rather angry and frustrated person. In the short term, it got me "healthcare" and a house. In the long term, we made a lot of incredibly stupid decisions that seroiusly hurt us in the end.



Let's just say that when government "helps" you, it always controls you. Instead of making decisions that are sensible, you make decisions based upon some agency's rules, and soon begin thinking in terms of those rules, not in terms that make long term sense in the real world.



If you're interested in solving the problems associated with health care, then you've stumbled all around, over, on top of , and under the problem, and then totally and completely failed to recognize it in the slightest. The problem is: Insurance.



Not that insurance is bad. Insurance is fine. But government wrote tax policy to make employer provided health care insurance the norm. This has resulted in an incredibly stupid, but almost universal perception of health care costing only the part that insurance does not pay. We now use insurance as a bill paying service.



You would not dream of buying "food insurance" so you could be assured of food on the table. Nor of "clothes insurance" so you'd be assured of not going naked. Most of us do not buy "repair insurance" on our vehicles, either. Instead, we do our best to avoid breaking things, to service them properly to prevent breakdown, and use them properly to avoid their destruction. People who buy maintenance agreements on their cars generally get far more expensive repairs than those who do not. They bring the truck in with a slipping TC, and leaving with a DTT trans, valve body, and new TC, for "free" or their $100 deductible. Why? You paid the premium to get "unlimited" care, and now you're gonna milk it for all it's worth.



Health insurance should be reformed. It should be purchased ONLY by those insured. It should never pay the doctor, it should reimburse the patient. The patient should write the check for his care. When you go get a physical done, do you call 3 doctors, looking for the best deal? Nope. You go to the one who takes your insurance. Is he overpriced? You have no idea.



If you wrote the check every time you went to the doctor... and so did everyone else (just like going to the grocery store, or buying that set of injectors from DD), the doctor would fire half his staff, lower his prices, and be competitive with the clinic across town. Without having to wait 3 months for reimbursement, hiring 2 people full time to try to wrangle insurance into paying at least part of his bill, he could actually do his job efficiently.



When you went to the hospital, did you and the doctor discuss... "We have 3 ways to do this... and two of them cost twice as much as the first"? Nope. You just fretted that insurance pay whatever products and procedures the hospital could dream up.



Health care providers and insurance companies play a cat-and-mouse game. Go in for your normal checkup, and the doctor submits a claim for a standard "physical". They price that service. INsurance has arranged for a "special deal" with the doctor, and gets a 40% discount. No problem. Next year, when you go in, the doctor does a "sequential health assessment", which just happens to be 35% more expensive than the "checkup" or "physical" they did just last year. You notice that nothing different actually happens. Since insurance doesn't know what " sequential health assessment" is, they pay a larger fee for it. When you go in for a sprained back, the doctors have developed all sorts of "new" practices and procedures. Amazingly enough, they all cost more than the ones they used to do. Not that it does anything more for you.



Eventually, the day of reckoning comes, and the insurance bean counters and analysts figure out that a "sequential health assessment" is really a physical, and increase their discount on that item. But you... the person without insurance. YOU pay the full amount. Because, of course, you didn't shop around, you might even pay twice as much as you should for the same form for your life insurance or motor vehicle department. Smart, eh?



Make this health care "free" and "universal", and you'll find that it will be treated so. Everyone will demand the most expensive, the latest, the greatest, the fanciest be done for them. With no regard for price or value. If you think insurance gives you little for your money now, wait until you're having to pay government to waste a lot and THEN pays for everything everyone thinks they MIGHT want?



Did it ever occur to you to quit buying "bill payer" type insurance? How about you take some of the risk yourself? Get a major medical policy to protect you from big-time whacks like cancer, heart surgery, childbirth, and you foot the first couple thousand a year? That kind of insurance is available, and it's actually very cheap. It's like getting a large deductible on your truck. Except, you put the money you save in the bank. Put it in your brokerage account. Put it in the coffee can under your bed. Take money out only when you need it. Put enough money in that account to cover your deductible. If your deductible is $2400, put in $200 a month. Eventually, you'll have your $2400, maybe even 3 or 4 grand in the account earning interest or growing in investements. Something comes along, and you just fork over the money.



This has been tried. Thousands of larger companies have implemented this. They provide a fund equal to almost the whole deductible every year, and then provide a major medical that starts at the 2 to 4 thousand a year range. It covers %100 of everything over the limit. Their health care costs plummet. The employees get ANY coverage tehy want, since they are actually the ones who decide what services to get. And if they don't spend the deductible amount, they get to keep it. If that $2500 could be yours if you don't blow it on unnecessary stuff at the doctor, are you going to spend it? No. Just like you don't buy the most expensive brands of food, clothing, and other things, because you have "food, clothing" insurance you can con into paying whatever it is you feel like making them get.



Doctors and nurses are leaving Canada. Why? the pay stinks. The working conditions stink. Tell me, if the doctor commits gross malpractice in Canada, whom do you sue to be compensated for his wrongdoing? The taxpayers? Don't know? Find out.



You want to join the ranks of the self-employed? Good for you. Try it. Oh, yeah, after you've done it, I'd like your wholesale endorsement of my ideas and my position on many of things we disagree on, becuase you'll be giving it. You WILL see the light.



Is my "pride" showing? I hope so. I'm darn proud of my country. I'm darn proud of our tradition of self-reliance and self-sufficiency. Those two things build strong and secure people who are unafraid of the future. Do I think that capitalism - free market enterprise, combined with private property rights, economic freedom, and individual initiative is better than anything else on earth? Absolutely, 100%. We've done it better, faster, stronger, and created a place that's better for the individual and for civilised society than any other place on earth.



As Babe Ruth (I believe) once said, "It ain't bragging if you can do it". And so I say... We are, have been, and if we don't follow your desires, will continue to be, the best on earth. Period.



One last thing: You want to join the ranks of the self-employed, but can't afford health insurance? And this gives you the right to demand government take away MY money for it? What on earth is your justification? "Europeans do it"? Fine, they collaborated with the Nazi's too. Doesn't make either one right.

 

[BFC]

I knew somebody would say it, ah

Glenn- you say you can't get health insurance just because you willingly jump out of perfectly good, properly functioning aircraft for a living? Who'da thunk it?

Bill first of all, no such thing as a perfectly good airplane! Ask me how I know?



Don't smirk too hard, who knows maybe you'll be the next one being denied coverage 'cause you had a wreck in vehicule that you modified to exceed limits set by the manufacturer behyond(SP?) what a normal personne would consider reasonnable, and in a court of law they would probably win!



If it doesn't harm anybody else, why should it matter what I do?



BTW, over 3 000 000 skydives done in the US last year, 28 death. Over 400 golfers we're hit by lightning... ... ...

I don't think I would put the insurance industry out of business. I've been injured once in ten years of skydiving(3360 jumps) That was 7 years ago.



Not flaming anybody or trying to convice anybody that what I do is reasonnable(not complaning either, it is my choice to do what I do), sound familiar don't it? I am my own insurance station!



Glenn

 

[Champane Flight]

Don't mind

Everytime I go to draw unemployment or any other benefit(that I have paid for) I usually get frustrated to the point of telling them to "Keep their benefits,I will have a job in a couple of weeks". I do understand about control. But somehow I envision a better system for health care.



The policy you are speaking of I have already,company and I are paying through nose for. As far as being self employed,already been there a couple of times. What are we paying for now?We are paying for the indigent,the old,and our military. We are a great country,we got to this point by working our butts off. However the worker in todays society is taking a beating. I am paying 33% income tax. I am paying for programs I have no say in already.



A country that is as great as you say should provide healthcare to its people. And I don't mind paying for your healthcare PW. I do check with relatives on whether a procedure is needed. I do not think that insurance should be re done,however feel it should be dropped. What is the difference of being under control of a insurance company or our goverment?MONEY... .

 

[rob10858]

let's not forget the person in the middle of this firestorm. "few people will spend the greater part of their youth, in school, struggling to obtain the education required for a medical specialty, unless they have a passion to heal" my dad was one of these fine folks , and the same holds true for nurses. it was after having to take both my dad and mom , recently, to the er, and having to endure the ultimate passing of their lives, that i've come to realize that, like it or not, this is the best system in the world. sure i was sitting next to the welfare moms, and the non insured, and knew that it was my parents that would be paying for their med bills, and my father railed against the unfairness of it all when he was alive. but i kind of felt a sense of pride that those, whether worthless, or just down on their luck were being taken care of, in HIS hospital . as i spent the last two months in the icu visiting ward i got a first hand look at how important med insurance is. those that had no insurance were being treated alongside of my folks. of couse their relatives were the ones being questioned about payment, while i was never approached at any time about this. whether you are poor, rich, unemployed, etc. , the grief and sadness is the same. i guess what i'm trying to say is that is what this country is all about. remember the words on the plaque on the piece of land that our statue of liberty stands really mean. if this country never took care of the poor and downtrodden, it would not be the special place that we all live today. sometimes it aint right, and it aint fair, but it's all we have. if you want to make it better, venture into politics, and make it so. until the effort is really made to change things, by everyone , we have to live with things the way they are.

 

[Bill Lins]

Re: I knew somebody would say it, ah

Originally posted by BFC





Bill first of all, no such thing as a perfectly good airplane!



Over 400 golfers we're hit by lightning... ... ...



Glenn

Sure there are perfectly good airplanes- they're the ones that get you back home. The great airplanes are those that can be used again!



400 golfers hit by lightning? That's why I don't play "pasture pool".

 

[Bill Lins]

Re: Don't mind

Originally posted by Champane Flight

Everytime I go to draw unemployment or any other benefit(that I have paid for)

Wrong, CF. You haven't paid a penny for state or Federal unemployment benefits- your employer pays 100% of the assessment. The really neat part is that he is NOT covered by the same benefit - even though he paid for it.

 

[BFC]

That's why I don't play "pasture pool"

That's too funny, pasture pool, got to remember that one! LOL



Glenn

 

[Champane Flight]

Not so

Sorry Bill ,but "uncharged"unemployment benefits are paid from our tax money.



I am not afraid of work and never have been,I have been self employed several times in the past. I however will never forget the sacrifices made by labor in the past.



Everybody seems to forget where Paid vacations,Minimum wage,sick pay,Holidays,and SSA came from. If you want to give them away?You go first... .....

http://webmap.missouri.edu/health/in-health.html

 

[Bill Lins]

Re: Not so

Originally posted by Champane Flight

Sorry Bill ,but "uncharged"unemployment benefits are paid from our tax money.

Those funds may be "borrowed " from general revenues but the state and Federal governments go after the employer until the "loan" is repaid. Even bankruptcy does not discharge this debt.

Everybody seems to forget where Paid vacations,Minimum wage,sick pay,Holidays,and SSA came from.

That's right- they come from EMPLOYERS! Who pays for THEIR benefits? That's right- THEY do!

 

[Champane Flight]

Right

Right,and they give them to you out of the goodness of their hearts don't they?These benefits were fought and won by American workers years ago,I am not forgeting. It seems some have... ... ..... Are you saying that workers don't deserve it?



"Uncharged" unemployment benefits are just that. The ex-employer is NOT held responsible for the dept. He is found not responsible for the ex-employees discharge. If the employer is wrongfully responsible for his discharge. He does have to pay.



I have had one job in my lifetime that my employer was generous and actually cared about his employees. One in 35 years!And the points in my life that I have been self-employed,I have been my worse boss ever!



My family were at Ludlow,don't ask me to have a lot of faith in big buissness. http://www.umwa.org/history/ludlow.shtml





In the same breath I don't have a lot of faith in big Unions either. They have a way of becoming just as corrupt as big buisness... ... .

 

[Bill Lins]

Re: Right

Originally posted by Champane Flight

Right,and they give them to you out of the goodness of their hearts don't they?

No, they offer the benefits in order to attract and retain good employees. It's a matter of supply and demand. In most cases, especially construction, the demand for good employees far outstrips the available supply. Therefore employers must compete for the employees they wish to hire by offering good benefit packages.



As to your claim that tax money funds unemployment benefits, ALL employers pay into state and Federal unemployment funds, including those, like me, who have NEVER had a claim made against them. This is NOT money withheld from the employees' pay, but comes entirely from the employer's pocket. THAT is where the money comes from for "uncharged" benefits, NOT tax money. I'm not surprised that you weren't a good boss- not a flame, but you appear to lack an understanding of basic economics.

 

[CMAC]

It seems funny to me that no one will mention the fact that , if it were not for the starting , and managing of labor Unions , we would not know what a vacation is. Benifits were not just awarded to employee's to keep them healthy so they could show up for work each day , hard working people had to fight for them. If it were not for Unions , we would be just as poor as the people

in Mexico. No vacation , No benifits , No unemployement.



Member of United Steel Workers of America Local 1938