Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) wearing me out! lift pump problems and a new question

[NScott]

Well, I'm on my third lift pump now at 26K miles. By the way,since my second pump install, I'VE NEVER LET THE TANK GET BELOW 3/4 FULL!! IMO the fuel level in the tank has little or nothing to do with the failure rate. My guage started acting eratic the other day after I started up after sitting for a few weeks. I knew it was the lift pump, I got out ,got a wrench and "pecked" on the pump. It would again start working but would soon go close to zero again shortly. I've read most of the threads about the "fix" for this problem. I really don't want to go to a two pump setup with a possible one-way check valve and all that plumbing! MY QUESTION IS: DOES ANYONE MAKE A LINE UP that replaces the void in your existing plumbing IF YOU REMOVE THE LIFT PUMP from it's current location on the side of the block?? This line would need to be flexible, and have an automotive slip-type connector(I don't know the correct name for this connector) on one end that would connect to the existing fuel hose AND on the other end it would need a banjo type fitting and bolts that would allow it to be connected to the existing line. I have read that Practical Solutions makes a pump relocating kit, but I did'nt see anything in it to connect these lines back together. I think I'll try to locate my lift pump on the side of the frame ,AS LOW AS POSSIBLE and see if this helps cure the lift pump plague. Help please on this ongoing problem!!!



99 3500 C&C, 2WD, 5spd, 3:56, dynosourses box, 4" straight

 

[ToolManTimTaylor]

Scott, Do a Search man! There must be a zillion threads on this very thing.



Me I run the PE 4200 with -8An lines and love it being a stand alone system , others simply toss the pump back at the tank , some even siphon out the bottom of the tank and push to the motor.

 

[Ncostello]

I am working on a write up that will give some instructions on how to move the pump for under $100 and not take more than two hours once you've gathered all the parts. I spent over $400 on my move. And I learned alot. But I did more than just move the pump. I'm not done with the write up and here is the short side (I hope) of the story.



Get these parts.



1. Two steel M12x1. 5 male to -6AN (JIC 37 degree) male adapters. You can get aluminum from Aeroquip but I like steel from Wildcat Diesel. Also get two new sealing washers from Cummins for these. These two go on your lift pump.



2. Two -6AN (JIC) to 3/8" hose barb adapters. These can be had in brass from about any hydraulic shop out there. I've got some new ones here if you need me to mail them to you for free.



3. 10' roll of SAE J30R9 fuel injection rubber hose. Again consult your local hydraulic shop. WeatherHead makes some good stuff. Also get four small hose clamps. I use the Oetiker clamp on type.



4. Self fabricated LP bracket made of 1/8" flat steel or aluminum. This can be a 90 degree angle bracket to keep it simple. Drill the holes and all that good stuff. Try to use some mounting holes on the frame that are already there. There are several to choose from depending on where you mount it.



5. From Practical Diesel Solutions, get a lift pump extension harness. They made me one to my specified length to extend my factory plug. They use the Deutsch connectors and 16 ga wire which is plenty. You'll need about 46" of extension give or take. Also expect to pay $25 for this.



Do the following:



1. Remove the lift pump and remove the short line from the pump to the canister.



2. Cut the stock SS hard line back where you want to mount the pump. DONT cut too close the the tank. You want some room to put on clamps and such. I use a dremel wheel cutter on medium speed. Makes it quick and clean. You should also blow the diesel back into the tank before cutting this line. You dont want a fire.



3. Mount your bracket to the frame and mount the pump. It most likely wont be any louder bolted right to the frame. Mine wasn't at all. Once the engine is running you cant hear or feel anything buzzing... I cant and I have perfect hearing.



4. Install your pump adapters and install your hose barb adapters. Dont forget new orings to seal it. The AN JIC ends are self sealing. The orings are just for sealing the metric end of the adapters.



5. Plug in your new wire extension harness. 16 ga wire is plenty for this low amp draw pump. You wont notice any difference and relays are not necessary for a Carter pump. Run relays for bigger pumps if you go that route.



6. Slip the hose over the steel fuel line stub about an inch and clamp it. Slip the hose over the hose fitting on the suction side of the pump and tighten the clamps.



7. Now since you've cut the stock line and removed what used to run all the way up to the old lift pump location, you'll need to snag a part off of it before you trash it. Cut the plastic black hose part of this assembly and remove the entire banjo fitting that used to hook to the suction side of the lift pump. Peel off that bracket on that banjo fitting. This particular banjo is much larger than all the others and has a section of tubing welded to it. That tubing mates up with 3/8" hose perfectly if not just a little tight. You'll want to buff that lip edge down just a tad so the hose slips way up on there. Put your 3/8" hose on there, clamp it and install it on the fuel canister using a banjo bolt as usual.



8. I'd install some larger banjo bolts anyway for somewhat improved flow all around at all the banjo locations.



This set up is cheap and very effective at moving the pump. It will work. You will need to gather up the parts ahead of time in order to keep this a one afternoon job. Plus you'll need to consider where your going to mount the pump, how to make your bracket etc ahead of time. Dont mount the pump too close to the tank... leave yourself some working room on the suction side of the pump. You also dont want to be forced to make any sharp bends with the hose. I'd say mount the pump about 12" or more in front of the tank. Getting closer wont make a difference.



Forget about a strainer prefilter. If it dont seperate water, it wont do a bit of good really. The inside-tank filter mesh is as fine or finer than any racing type screen fuel filter.



Umm... that should do it and not be any more difficult than what you planned originally. I doubt you can easily find an adapter hose like you want to make up the gap once the old pump is removed. Just mount the pump and go all the way to the filter with a one piece hose.



J30R9 is what Cummins uses on that short piece of rubber line between the canister and the VP44 inlet. Mine was marked right on the hose.



Sorry for the long description. What I've posted is really very simple and quick. Planning ahead for the move is ESSENTIAL to preventing problems in the install. You dont want to be down till Monday because parts places are closed on Sunday. Go for it! Good luck.

 

[krs]

I think that very little can be added to Ncostello's fine description of this change. I would add, however, that moving the OEM fuel filter/water seperator along with the pump is worth considering. I'd prefer to put it ahead of the pump so that both pumps can benefit from the 2 micron filtering available using fleetgaurd elements, but the original lineup might have an advantage that I'm not aware of yet. By moving the filter along with the pump you can really clean up the bad side of the engine making access to all of the engine sensors mounted on the left side much better. Doing this change will involve replacing part of the fuel return system that runs on the same side so will need an additional plan element.



.

 

[NScott]

Thanks ,Ncostello!! Thats a really good discription of what I'm wanting to do . When you get your complete and exact parts and updated detailed procedure list worked out ,please post it so myself as well as many others can see the parts needed for the best"fix"IMHO.

 

[Ncostello]

If you put a filter prior to the lift pump... and none after... the lift pump will naturally wear and produce small metal and carbon brush particles. Those will end up in your in your VP44 and injectors if you dont have a final filter after the pump. You'll need two filters if you want to prefilter the fuel.



I'll get that write up done as soon as I can. I'm a little busy today but I should be able to get it up tomorrow.



I tucked two Stanadyne filter heads up under the frame and trashed the stock filter. It really makes that side of the engine cleaner. But again it was alot of work and I was down for quite a while during the change over.



Moving the pump should be a giant leap for the VP44 kind on its own. This is what I personally recommend for those who stick with Carters. I think it works. No scientific data really but it has to be better for the lift pump to some degree.

 

[JES]

H2O seperator

As long as the pump inlet is below the fuel in the tank it makes no measurable difference whether you are a foot closer or farther from the fuel outlet of the tank. This means you have over 4 feet of space on the frame to mount your pump. There is plenty of room to mount an H2O separator / filter before the pump and a secondary filter after it if you want to.

 

[krs]

Ncostello, your right, and I hadn't thought of the particles of LP so I'll use two. I've seen too many pickup inlet screens fail either by simply coming loose or by erosion/rusting to have a lot of faith in them in the long term. I've posted a couple of times about the warning in the installation instructions for a Carter pump that requires a pre-pump filter so as to maintain the pump's warranty. I read it again this afternoon and have to reason that the manufacturer had ample reason for it's inclusion in their documentation. That instruction does not, however, stipulate a water seperator nor does it include any specification which the filter must meet, so maybe a generic diesel rated cheap filter is good enough and the main filter can be placed after the liftpump.

 

[Ncostello]

My setup photos



My whole story



That first link shows the photos I took of my setup. You can see all my photos in my gallery "ncostello" by clicking "view other albums" to see the filters and the all plastic 99 fuel module disassembled. Depending on your computer screen settings, you may want to turn up your desktop brightness in your advanced screen color management properties so you can see the details. Lotsa black in the photos. The second link is the story of how I went about it. Kinda long but its what I did from the beginning to the end.



I know there were two different styles of fuel modules if not more. The one I had was all plastic and I would never be worried the filter fabric in there would fail. Its all synthetic and had to be cut out with an exacto knife. I suppose I would trust it. But a prefilter wont hurt at all. Since I run one, I took out the screen inside the tank and also the metal mesh inside the lift pump. Dont need that either.



One thing on prefilters. I'd get one thats a water seperator. Water going through an electric motor and pump isn't at all good on the electric parts as well as the shaft bushings. Keeping water out of the lift pump could be very beneficial in keeping it going for the long haul. Having a second one after the pump is extra insurance for the VP44 and injectors. My stanadyne prefilter can remove 90% of the water. My final filter will remove the rest so basically the fuel is virtually water free at the injectors assuming everything works as advertised. A good quality prefilter/seperator should also be rated for vacuum use and offer little restriction for the lift pump. The Stanadyne units are very free flowing. I think they'll do 80 GPM with little resistance to flow. And they are very compact. No matter what length of filter you get... they are all rated at least 80 GPM. The longer filters give you slightly longer service intervals. Just a thought. Racor makes some good ones too... but they were all to big for where I wanted to put them.



Also consider a shutoff valve as the first thing in line. If not there is no way to stop natural siphoning when changing filters or pumps. I can open my filter drain and it will pour out till I shut off the valve. Gravity is about the most reliable transfer pump on the market .



I mounted my pump right over the 5speed crossmember. The crossmember is kinda like a skid plate for it against flying road debris. Plenty of room on either side then for the filters.

 

[Sticks]

Ncostello



How much is the retail on those filters, and how often do you change them?





Your pre filter looks like it hangs pretty low, any problems with impacts?





Do you still run fuel pressure at the VP, or do you have a pre filter sensor?

 

[Ncostello]

My prefilter in the photo is 6" long. It does not hang lower than the frame. I just got my 4. 3" long prefilter (backordered) so it will not hang down at all. I'm currently making small skid plates to hang off the bottom of the frame and go under the filters. They should be fine. The final filter is tucked away and shouldn't need anything.



Example costs for the prefilter assembly:



1. Basic FM100 Aluminum Header Unit $28

2. 30 micron prefilter $12

3. Water sensor $58

4. 100W side load unit heater $40

5. See through bowl (I dont have) $26

6. 150W Top Load unit heater (I dont have) $44

7. 5 micron final filter $13

8. Hand Primer module (I bought but dont need) $20



These units are totally modular and servicable. You can build whatever you want from the various parts. There are alot of options on accessories and filters. I got mine from ReliableIndustries.com.



I take my pressure on the filtered side of the final filter. So all pressures are post filtering.



I havent' changed them yet except for playing around but Stanadyne told me to expect 10,000 miles with what I have. I wont mind doing them sooner than that.