What are the best shocks???

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

Everybody hold on. The pot just started to stir!!!



Monroe shock absorbers makes most if not all of the cheaper name brand shock. Bilstien and fox and king are the exception. Rancho, Pro Comp, Donahoe, skyjacker the list goes on and on. Monroe is the shock maker... ... ... ... ! Every oem shock is made by monroe. OEM shocks are made to make every driver happy. Well almost every driver. I have been off roading for years and have used every major brand of shock available. The truth be told, they are all about a $3 shock. Even the 9000's you guys speak so highly of are not great. But you are getting what you pay for! The adjustability of the Rancho is not that much. It only controls rebound dampening. It does not make the shock stiffer. The rebound circut of the shock is limited by a small pinhole. When you screw the adjuster in to level ( 9 ) it almost closes it down completly. It may feel like it is stiffer but truth be told, it is just not coming back up as fast. This is very antiquated technology backed by a great marketing scheme. Hence, millions of crappy shocks are sold every year. You are better off going with another OEM replacement shock.



Now for Bilstien 5100 and 7100. It has custom valving. That makes it stiffer! The digressive piston lets the shock blow through the valving to make it suck up a bigger hit. Say a speed bump at 50 mph will dissapear. Now hit that same bump at 15 mph and it will feel very stiff. Digressive pistons are a direct result of Formula One racing. It is how the make the cars stay flat in the corners even though they are hitting the curb that is red and white. Watch it next time it is on. At speed the shock just blows by the valving and floats where it needs to be smooth. In a sence, that is how the Bilstiens work. On the HWY and on small washboard roads the Bilstien is far superior to the Monroe style shock. That is why it is more money. Again, You get what you pay for. You drive a 40,000 truck right? Why would you install a crappy $3 shock? If I am going to install a turbo as an upgrade, I want the best available. Why not use that thinking in buying wheels, tires, and shocks. Y Knot, has the right idea here. It liked the Bilstiens but opted for the Better Fox shock. Maybe a total of $1000 for all six of them. Six bilstiens would be $450. . Why does he do that. Because he wants the best his truck has to offer. All this talk of front end wobble and vibration has alot to do with the shock we choose when we lift our truck. I installed the KORE Fox system on my truck. I paid full price for it. It is truly amazing. The "Death Wobble" I had prior to the install is now non existant! Was it expensive,$3500 is not cheap. Does my truck ride better. Come out and see for yourself. One ride in Big Red and you will order your own Kore Suspension system.



Greg

 

[DPelletier]

OK Greg,

You and I have had this discussion before, but to reiterate a couple of points;



- Ranchos are far from perfect and there are many better shocks as you've pointed out, BUT Rancho shocks are still designed by Rancho engineers and built to thier specifications (last time I checked). I'll say it again; the whole Ranchos are rebadged Monroes is an urban legend. It comes from when Monroe originally bought Rancho and they shared an entry level shock (sorry don't remember the series#, 2000 maybe?). To the best of my knowledge, Monroe has never sold an adjustable shock similar to the RS5000's or RS9000X's. If they do, please post the part number, because the wholesaler I deal with can get me Monroes much cheaper than Rancho's.

As far as how good a shock the Rancho's are, I think they suck for off-road use. I melted a set on the road from Gonzaga bay to San Felipe. I suspect that by limiting the flow, they create way too much heat. Despite this they DO offer superior dampening for sway control of a large top-heavy slide in camper. In fact many of the characteristics that make for good off road suspension are diametrically opposed to sway and load control. For offroad use, you want plush valving, long travel suspension whereas for stable highway driving you want stiffer valving and limited suspension travel. Different tools for different jobs. Your truck would be as bad hauling my camper as mine would be offroad.



To be clear, if we are discussing the merits of OFF ROAD shocks and suspension, I couldn't agree with you more.



Cheers,

Dave

 

[Hohn]

I had no idea what "death wobble" was until I moved here to WY and drove over a certain section of I-25 not far from the base where I work. It's an uneven expansion joint. I swear I've only had that much adrenaline once or twice before.

Since replacing the shocks with 5100s, This SAME joint is now not scary-- it's actually FUN.

For a "cheap" shock, the brushed aluminum 5100s with the HD valving are tough to beat. While my SJ D25 springs suck, the Bilsteins have NOT disappointed. Even with only 2" more clearance up front, off road performance over larger bumps is MUCH MUCH better. In fact, I haven't bottomed my truck since the Bilsteins went in, even over some stuff that most people would rather jump out of the truck than drive over.

Justin

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

Dave,

I will agree to disagree about the urban legend. I am also sure that Rancho does design the shock to their spec. That being said, Monroe will and does make and manufacture most of the shocks on the market today. Dave, can you list the three tire companies that produce the market share of name brand tires available today. I am not trying to flame you by any means, just trying to make my point clear. Things are produced and distributed by a company and rebadged by another and then claimed better than the oppositions. For example: Rancho 9000X and Pro Comp MX6? Hmmmm? Where are both of these shocks made. Last time I was in Carson, CA at rancho, All they did was weld up pieces of metal.



Greg

all in good fun

 

[RustyJC]

Because of the tremendous weight difference on the rear of a dually between running empty and pulling a 16,000 lb 5th wheel (at 20%, that's 3,200 lbs pin weight), non adjustable shocks are generally too firm on compression when running empty and too soft on rebound when running loaded. With a dually's high unsprung weight in the rear, this results in a ride that feels like the suspension has been welded solid when empty yet constant bouncing when towing. Being able to adjust the rebound snubs the bouncing out when towing our 5th wheel - with the stock shocks, everyone in the truck was carsick within 20 miles.



Rusty

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

Rusty,

You are right about the adjustability in your situation. The bouncing though is caused by the heavy duty rear springs on your truck. An oem shock can only do so much. Most of the shocks on the market today are soft on compression and stiffer on rebound. The nice thing about a bilstien is that you can order it with custom valving to help both situations. Heavy rebound dampening can help on an empty truck tremendously. It will help even more on a loaded truck. With such a heavy spring rate, the compression needs to be almost non existant. Don't get me wrong here, you will need some compression but not much. You don't plan to jump your $40,000 dually do you? I wouldn't think so. The shock you need has to have twice as much rebound as it does compression. When I installed the fox shocks on my truck, I ran the stock rear springs. My truck used to be a dually. Now it is a srw truck. The overload leafs would bounce the rear of the truck 4 feet in the air on hard hits off road. I have since install a KORE custom rear replacement spring like Kent has on the race truck. The rear end floats real nice off road. On the hwy it is great too. I have done some towing with this setup. The rear sags about 2 inches and is real plush. I have a ton of compression for landing from 4 feet off the ground. There is even more rebound to keep the truck from bouncing after a landing from that high. It works ok towing but is not the ultimate tow setup. If I were to replace the rear shocks on my wifes dually, they would be Fox 2. 5" race shocks with 8 inches of travel. Valved real soft on compressoin and a little heavier on the rebound. It will make a great ride on road and help on the washboard and stutter bumps we expierence everyday on the dirt roads we travel.



Greg

 

[DPelletier]

Dave,

I will agree to disagree about the urban legend. I am also sure that Rancho does design the shock to their spec. That being said, Monroe will and does make and manufacture most of the shocks on the market today. Dave, can you list the three tire companies that produce the market share of name brand tires available today. I am not trying to flame you by any means, just trying to make my point clear. Things are produced and distributed by a company and rebadged by another and then claimed better than the oppositions. For example: Rancho 9000X and Pro Comp MX6? Hmmmm? Where are both of these shocks made. Last time I was in Carson, CA at rancho, All they did was weld up pieces of metal.



Greg

all in good fun

No problem Greg. I'm not upset! I think we are actually agreeing on most of the facts;

- 1) Rancho is owned by Monroe and the shocks (and/or components) are made in the same factory.

- 2) Rancho engineers and designs thier shocks.

- 3) you can't buy an RS9000X that says Monroe on it

- 4) Rancho shocks aren't very good for offroad use and thier quality is no better than most OEM replacement type shocks.



I'd love to have the KORE suspension on a truck to cruise around with off-road and I REALLY would have liked it when I was in Baja, but such a suspension system is overkill for a street driven dually truck and would make it less stable than it is now with the camper on. More than anything, I just think we are looking at things from two completely different perspectives; yours from an off-road performance point of view and mine from a highway towing point off view.





Cheers,

Dave

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

Yea,

Your right Dave,

I failed to state that it definatly depends on how you intend to use your truck.



Have a good day,

Greg

 

[jrobinson2]

As far as how good a shock the Rancho's are, I think they suck for off-road use. I melted a set on the road from Gonzaga bay to San Felipe. I suspect that by limiting the flow, they create way too much heat. Despite this they DO offer superior dampening for sway control of a large top-heavy slide in camper. In fact many of the characteristics that make for good off road suspension are diametrically opposed to sway and load control. For offroad use, you want plush valving, long travel suspension whereas for stable highway driving you want stiffer valving and limited suspension travel. Different tools for different jobs. Your truck would be as bad hauling my camper as mine would be offroad.



To be clear, if we are discussing the merits of OFF ROAD shocks and suspension, I couldn't agree with you more.



Cheers,

Dave

I haul a camper with my truck and ran the ranchos about 45,000 miles, It weighs just over 9000lbs gross, I have an early T-rex system with the 2 1/2 Kings and there is absolutely nothing better about the rancho adjustables in any way under any condition on any setting loaded or empty than my current setup. It handles a lot like the ranchos on the high settings but with a lot better ride, There are quite a few T rex / KORE owners hauling heavy campers, some over 12,000 lbs, with great results. When I bought my system one of my greatest concerns was hauling the camper, I like to drive hard and was unwilling to give up anything with the camper on and this ended up being one of the largest improvements. The Ranchos on the rear were quite a bit better than OEM hauling the camper but were not even close to what I have now, loaded or empty.



Jared

 

[DPelletier]

I haul a camper with my truck and ran the ranchos about 45,000 miles, It weighs just over 9000lbs gross, I have an early T-rex system with the 2 1/2 Kings and there is absolutely nothing better about the rancho adjustables in any way under any condition on any setting loaded or empty than my current setup. It handles a lot like the ranchos on the high settings but with a lot better ride, There are quite a few T rex / KORE owners hauling heavy campers, some over 12,000 lbs, with great results. When I bought my system one of my greatest concerns was hauling the camper, I like to drive hard and was unwilling to give up anything with the camper on and this ended up being one of the largest improvements. The Ranchos on the rear were quite a bit better than OEM hauling the camper but were not even close to what I have now, loaded or empty.



Jared

That's good info and I'm glad it's working for you. You obviously have some valuable first hand experience. A couple of questions;

- Are you running the stock springs?

- When you say "any conditions" I am assuming you are including 70 mph highway speeds with corners, etc?

- What tires and air pressures are you using?



I have trouble thinking how a longer travel, more compliant suspension system would be able to equal a shorter travel, stiffer suspension system for sway control. Like Greg said, he had to go with the Kore rear leafs (much softer) to get his truck to work offroad. Those same softer springs can't be as good with a camper on as far as I can see. Maybe yours works OK with stiffer springs because of the camper weight, but then, it wouldn't work as good empty would it?

This reminds me of tires: a good example of a HD hauling/towing set-up for the highway would be a DRW truck with Michelin XPS Ribs, yet I can't imagine a worse choice for four wheeling. Again, sort of differing goals.



I hope this doesn't come across wrong, as I would really like to learn more by continuing this discussion. I'd love to be able to make my truck much better on washboard etc. without compromising the highway sway issues. Unfortunately for me, I need to be able to buy into the logic and I can't quite see it yet.



Cheers,

Dave



ps. I'm just under 12,000 lbs with the camper on.

 

[jrobinson2]

Sorry if the following ended up a bit rambling but I cant type and my wife says if I don't get off this computer soon I will sleep outside tonight and its a little cold outside :-{} .

All of the following comments pertain to my impressions on paved roads under reasonable circumstances. The off road performance loaded or empty is even better .

In the last year or so I have run 3 different valving setups in the kings, 2 different sets of front coils and even a set of 5150 bilstiens on the rear for a while. I have also run the KORE coils and mini leafs with OEM shocks in front and Rancho's in the rear.

I have never found anything about the KORE system that was any worse in any way than stock besides the increased ride height (I don't like tall trucks) the KORE system is better at any speed on any road under any conditions with any load I have ever hauled, (at $3500. 00 it should be) I have been as high as 10,200 GVW with the truck only (I have an axle scale so I weigh quite often just because I can) and once pulled a bumper pull trailer several miles that went 19,200 GCVW with an obscene tongue weight so I have done a variety of different things with the system, most of my towing is under 14,000 GCVW. My camper is a fairly heavy 8' popup, over 9000lbs gross but probably a lower CG than a hard camper.



-" Are you running the stock springs?"



Right now I am running stock main spring packs with the heavy booster leaf replaced with the KORE mini leaf pack and the overloads removed. I ran the stock rear springs with factory overloads for several months after installing the Kings and that package was also better than the ranchos.

When I bought the system I just could not even imagine how the mini leafs could possibly work better empty and still perform even as good as OEM loaded, Kent kept telling me I really needed them but I just could not see them working, he finally asked if he sent them would I at least try them and then send them back or pay after testing. The improvement was instant and definite, the truck rides about 2" higher with the camper on and also rides better empty and loaded, I would recommend the mini leafs and coils even with OEM style shocks.



-"When you say "any conditions" I am assuming you are including 70 mph highway speeds with corners, etc?"



70mph, 80mph, corners marked 35 at 45 or 50 or more, The camper tends to start buffeting if you run over 85 or 90 , I like to charge through corners even loaded. You want corners? last year i drove the coast highway from Crescent city to Los Angeles, I may have doubled the number of times I have pushed a clutch pedal in my life on that trip :-laf .



-"What tires and air pressures are you using?"



I originally ran the system with 265-75 16 E Cooper Discoverer A/T's at full rated pressure (80psi?) with the camper on and 32psi empty, my current tires are 295-75 16 D BFG TA KO's (rated 3415lbs at 65 psi) at 65 psi with the camper on and 38psi empty. The coopers were a bit more solid loaded and handled a little better but the BFGs have done fine, I expected them to be a bit mushier than the coopers and was actually surprised how well they worked, I may still get a second set of E rated for the camper but at this point I don't think its necessary.



-"Maybe yours works OK with stiffer springs because of the camper weight, but then, it wouldn't work as good empty would it?"



Gregg's third gen has different length springs than my second gen and he may have "special" springs also, his probably work better than mine empty but mine are still much better than stock. I have the "standard" KORE mini pack. The KORE mini pack makes the rear spring much more progressive, it rides as good or better than OEM in the first couple inches but becomes stiffer at a much different rate. The ride empty is a little better on fairly decent roads and quite a bit better on rougher roads, the ride loaded is a LOT better, With the OEM as the suspension compressed it would hit the over loads and the heavy booster at almost the same time and stop moving, now I get much more movement but CONTROLLED movement, not bouncing not swaying, smooth controlled travel, the sensation is unlike anything I have experienced before. I think a lot of this is because the 2 1/2" bore in the shocks allows many more options in valving, the piston in a OEM style shock is quite small, not much over 1" and when you take out the shaft diameter you have very little space left for the valve shim pack. I did have sway with the OEM shocks but have NO sway or unstability at all now, the sway is a lot like the Rancho's but with much better ride.



-"I'd love to be able to make my truck much better on washboard etc. "



I could go on for hours. . I have 5 miles of washboards to get anywhere from my house, no more skating at all, dive into a washboard corner and the back doesn't shake out at all it just carves through.



There are others with much heavier campers than mine that have posted on other threads.

If you have any other questions I'll try to keep my answers more direct and less rambling .



Jared

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

Great post Jared,

I do have a "special" rear spring. They came off of the race truck from the Baja 500. Kent sold them to me because he was buying a stiffer spring for the rears. I am sure that the custom springs are available if you called and asked. They are very expensive, $1200 or so. Do they work better? I would think so, but I only ran the stock springs and then the race springs. I know that with them I have a full 10" of travel on the shock. They ride great on the hwy, My truck works so good that I even removed the anti-sway bar in the front. I wouldn't recommend this to everyone but for the heavy off road abuse my truck takes, I would have broke the links to the sway bar anyways. The shocks are set up to have very little "bleed" That is what allows the side to side movement "sway" They corner great on the HWY. I can throw my truck sideways in a corner and drive out of it no problem. It is like haveing an 8000 lb rallye car.



There is no way that we should even compare what Kent/KORE sells to the other "lift kits". This is the real deal!!! Off road handling is INSANE!!! on road is as good or better than stock. Think about that for a second. Usually you have to comprimise something when you change your suspension. Get more ride hight- loose cornering. Get more shock for off road- loose on road control. Kroeker spent so much time testing and valving, revalving, droop and compressing, revalving, bashing, driving, revalving and on and on. We have taken my truck to another level with the race springs. I have tested some shocks, broken ones that didn't work, and tested even more. It is nice to have open desert at my front door. It is even better to have proven myself as a driver to KORE. When Kent came out to test, we went for a drive in my truck, he said" wow, you really do flog this thing". I cant say enough about the abuse that goes into the testing of these shocks. My truck is airborn every day!! Every single day I am out "schralping" through the desert at speeds in excess of 80 mph. There is a new set of "secret" shocks on my truck right now. I think Jared knows what I am talking about. I have been testing them for three months and they perform flawlessly. They barely even get warm on a 40 mile long 80mph hot lap. Guys, were talking big whoops, washboard, G-outs, jumps and flat out dirt roads. The testing continues and the shocks will always improve. That is just the natural progression that comes from race testing these systems. Have you ever seen a Rancho 9000 on a race truck? I think not! Rancho Sux!!!! Not even in the same ballpark as the Fox or Bilstin 2. 5's. If we put rancho 9000s on my truck I would be limping home with broken axles and bent shocks. I guarantee it! You also need to take into consideration that with these shocks, they will be the last you ever buy. They are totally rebuildable, and revalvable forever. On a race car they last for well over the 1000 miles of abuse. In normal hwy driving they will last in upwards of 100,000 miles without rebuilding. Have them rebuilt at that point, and go 100,000 miles more.



Greg

 

[RustyJC]

Have you ever seen a Rancho 9000 on a race truck? I think not! Rancho Sux!!!! Not even in the same ballpark as the Fox or Bilstin 2. 5's. If we put rancho 9000s on my truck I would be limping home with broken axles and bent shocks. I guarantee it!

Greg,



With all respect, the only time my truck is off road is when I pull onto the shoulder of the highway to use the crapper in the 5th wheel! :-laf



As I said earlier, horses for courses. Not all of us are desert racers. In my experience, the Rancho 9000 adjustable shocks work just fine for my intended purpose. I had a severe problem - the adjustable Ranchos solved it.



Are they the best shock made? Not by a long shot. Are they a cost-effective solution to the challenges faced by those of us who tow heavy 5th wheels or carry heavy slide-in campers? In my experience, yes.



The best shock for any individual depends upon his priorities (cost versus benefit) and his intended use of his truck.



Rusty

 

[DPelletier]

Thanks for the info Jared, and I sure hope you didn't have to sleep outside!



The T-Rex/KORE system sure seems to get rave reviews from everyone that has tried it. I knew instantly after reading about how it was put together that it would be a huge step forward from the usual lift kit and 2nd rate shock setup that most people tend to run offroad (lots of Fords are like that for some reason). Jacking a truck way up in the air has never appealed to me.

From your comments, I now believe the Kore system will work better than I thought for pavement hauling use. I do recognize however, that there is a big difference between my 9. 5' basement model camper compared to your 8' pop up as far as overall weight and center of gravity is concerned. I doubt the Kore system would be better for my truck, my weight, Cof G and highway useage, but it would sure be nice for the odd times I find myself on washboard gravel roads. Maybe I'll have to revisit the issue if I plan another trip to Baja.

After sitting back and analyzing the discussion to date, I would have to say that for pavement only use, the Rancho's still offer much better sway control than the OEM or non-adjustable OEM replacement type shocks at a very small fraction of the price of a true off-road suspension system like yours. Obviously, there is a HUGE difference in a proper system like yours and the stock set up with some Ranchos, but it makes no sense for me to spend $2500 or more on such a system unless I was going to spend some more time off road.

Thanks again for your response, please tell your wife that you were helping somebody with an issue, not just wasting time!! I get it from my wife too!



Cheers,

Dave

 

[DPelletier]

Wow,

Two replies in the time it took me to type my last post! All I'll add is that I agree with both Greg and Rusty's posts;

- Ranchos suck off road: the shocks you're using are light years better

- Ranchos work to reduce sway and are a cost effective solution for the mostly pavement bound guy hauling heavy.



Cheers,

Dave

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

My wife thinks I am insane!! She must be insane too!



I still think that the performance from the Bilstien/Chase system is so much better than a stock truck with 9000's. In no way am I trying to talk down anyones decision to buy whatever they want. That is what makes this country great! If you want more control with a heavyier trailer or slide in ask for stiffer valving. It will not affect your on road/empty control.



Rusty,

I think that if you tried a Bilstien 7100 on the back of your truck you would see what I was talking about. This shock has been designed with your thinking in mind. It is a Digressive piston, not Progressive piston. That means it is almost linear against force throuhout the travel of the shock. It stays where it needs to and still resists force when it is implied. As for a shock helping with the weight of a camper. Shocks are not designed to help with weight. The slow the movement of the axle. Thats it. The nice thing about the Bilstien shock is that it is set up to work the same no matter what the weight is. I hope you didn't think I was trying to flame you in any way. If you did, I appologize. I am just trying to explaine how this works in the best way I know how. I may get a little passionate about it some times. I will try to stay in control... ... She told me I was insane!!!



Greg

 

[RustyJC]

As for a shock helping with the weight of a camper. Shocks are not designed to help with weight. The slow the movement of the axle. Thats it.

Greg,



Please read my posts again. I know how a spring works, and I know how a shock (properly, in technical terms, a damper) works. I learned that in physics, mechanics and mechanical engineering classes in college. I never claimed that a shock carries weight. Rather, a shock with stiffer rebound damping such as the Rancho 9000s does help to reduce side-to-side sway with a top-heavy camper. Similarly, it does eliminate the vertical low frequency bouncing I experienced towing our 5th wheel with the factory shocks that were severely lacking in rebound damping.



Rusty