What are the differences in EDM's v/s Extrude Honed injectors?

[Blacksdieselhp]

I would like to better understand the differences and pros/cons of edms v/s extrude honed injectors? We just installed a set of Scheid 80hp injectors in one of our 06 megacabs. It has a goerend trans and triple dog. The truck ran decent with just the triple dog, but man the injectors made a huge difference. At a 20 mph roll, you can floor it and it will get all over the road. Not sure which type these tips are, but their definatley awesome. We're gonna install tips in our other megacab next week and i am trying to decide which to use. I'd like to try something different on it and compare. It has a goerend trans, MP-8 and Smarty. We tow a lot with it also. I don;t want to go too big to where I can't tow with it. I'll probably go with a 62/14 turbo later. But just stock for now. I ran DP's 120 hp injectors in a 2005 6 speed I had and it was impossible to tow with it. it also had a Smarty, TST, and Sledpuller 66. I kinda think it was the turbo that mad eit run so hot. By the time it spooled, the egts were through the roof. Anyway, if you have any input on injectors you've used and how the egt's were, I will aprreciate it.

 

[JHardwick]

All tips are EDM'ed to start with.

Some companies take a stock EDM injector and hone it out to allow a higher fuel rate. The spray angle stays the same.

Other companies start with a blank and EDM their own holes to achieve a spray angle more conducive to making power with pressure/timing boxes.


On edit: I'm curious why "Blacks Diesel Performance" is asking this question?

 

[Blacksdieselhp]

I've never got into injectors on the 3rd gen trucks much. I am just now getting financially able to try some different things on my own trucks. I don't sell anything without trying for myself first. So thats why I am asking these questions. By the way, you really didn't answer anything about my question. You just told us everything everone already knows about injectors. I asked the differences and pros/cons of edms v/s extrude honed. Not the manufacturing process. I want to learn more about how each type works with other upgrades. How they work with close to stock trucks with just a downloader or a stack. Also how they work with highly modified trucks. Which type works best for what setups. Which has higher egts. Stuff like that. I don't need to know how they were built.

 

[JHardwick]

Based on the manufacturing process, I would say that EDM injectors are better suited for a modded truck ... ... ... ... wouldn't you agree?

 

[Tinman]

That assumes that any mod to timing or pressure needs a different spray angle. This may or may not be true and opinions will vary greatly. The Don M answer (From F1s web page) is that advancing timing will cause combustion to start further outward from the bowel because the piston is further down in the bore at ignition. So they decrease the spray angle. Not as much of a problem on the '04. 5 and up motors since the spray angle/cone is much narrower than the '03-04s. If you read DPPs web site you get a different answer. Who's right? Who knows, I guess it depends on what you sell and what you want to charge. I think it is safe to say that aftermarket EDMs are better quality holes and matching than stock. Unless you see the need the change the spray angle, I'd say the two are similar and better than stock. I'd would be interesting to hear from someone that knows what they are talking about and has an unbiased opinion.

 

[Blacksdieselhp]

I'm with you, tinman.

 

[JHardwick]

I guess I can be a little simplistic in my thoughts sometimes. It just seems to me that the stock spray angle is optimized for stock timing and fuel pressure.



Once you alter the timing/pressure, it seems to me that the spray angle should be optimized as well.



But again, I'm pretty simple minded.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Other companies start with a blank and EDM their own holes to achieve a spray angle more conducive to making power with pressure/timing boxes.

Funny how SOME say this is what they do, yet no one else seems to be able to get a hold of these nor has ever seen them... ... sounds a little fishy from the outside looking in.



Most take a stock injector and EDM the hole bigger and this allows you to tighen the spray pattern.



I would love to have a set of EDM 5 x 12 injectors with a tighter pattern and the pops set at say 4200. Lots of power, low smoke and good mileage... ... ... . 5x12 is the 370 size!



Jim

 

[RockyArnold]

I hope you guys work all this out so I can pick and choose what I want to put in my truck. injectors are on my list as a must have if they are true about the fuel economy. Thanks for all the great info you guys post. Rocky

 

[betterthanstock]

I think the 03-04, which have 8 hole nozzles, do very well with just honed. The later ones, which come stock with 5 bigger holes, would do better with 8 hole nozzles, rather than 5 even bigger ones.

 

[JCleary]

I think the 03-04, which have 8 hole nozzles, do very well with just honed. The later ones, which come stock with 5 bigger holes, would do better with 8 hole nozzles, rather than 5 even bigger ones.

Another injector "dummy" here. I've been on the fence for several years on whether or not to pull the trigger. Never seem to get enough info to satisfy the voice in my head telling me it's not worth it...



Anyway, one of the injector companies says the 325/600 injectors are really good, and hard to improve upon. In fact, I think it's the same company that makes theirs sticks from blanks. I dunno.



I'll rely on my mechanic's advice when they're building my transmission and twinsOo.

 

[Cattletrkr]

I've read that the honing process will help smooth out the edges on EDM's. EDM to make the hole, honing to finish it.

I have no idea how that relates to performance.

 

[Silvafoster]

Another injector "dummy" here. I've been on the fence for several years on whether or not to pull the trigger. Never seem to get enough info to satisfy the voice in my head telling me it's not worth it...



Anyway, one of the injector companies says the 325/600 injectors are really good, and hard to improve upon. In fact, I think it's the same company that makes theirs sticks from blanks. I dunno.



I'll rely on my mechanic's advice when they're building my transmission and twinsOo.

Touching on this statement, I don't have many mods, but when I questioned about injectors, I was also told replacing injectors are great for 03's, but 04. 5 & up, they have good injectors and I might be wasting hard earned cash to gain few HP.

 

[Tomeygun]

I think the 03-04, which have 8 hole nozzles, do very well with just honed. The later ones, which come stock with 5 bigger holes, would do better with 8 hole nozzles, rather than 5 even bigger ones.

FWIW, my stock 2003 8 hole went out in favor of custom 6-hole...



But they rock, so who am I to complain

 

[JStieger]

I've used all different types of injectors and also kept good mileage records.



I went from stock to Diesel Dynamics (DD3) to Industrial Injection (3-flows) to F1 Diesel (Flux 2).



The highest mileage injectors on a one time basis have been the Flux 2



Most of the time (~95%) with any of the injectors I run around on ~425 HP settings unless playing around.



The attached table shows a huge mileage jump from stock to DD3 on average. I was at 425 rwHP at the time and basically running only a pressure box with the injectors (EZ or VA C3. 1). The same time I changed injectors I had the PDR cam installed so how much is attributable to the injectors is unknown.



When I had the 3-Flows or Flux 2 I was basically at ~580 rwHP, same cam, but also stacking 2 boxes for the most part. I ran 3 different turbos with the 3-Flows and each had an interesting effect on mileage:



-First, I ran a large, laggy single 66 mm turbo and it definitely caused some crappy mileage since it was rarely "on boost" and smoked constantly as a result. Cruise EGT were always ~1100*.

-Then I went to a 62 mm turbo with big exhaust side that was a lot better on mileage than the 66. It smoked less and was "on boost" more, but no where like a tighter exhaust 62 series or stock turbo. Cruise EGT were always ~1000*.

-Finally, I went to BD twins. They definitely smoked less, always "on boost", and ran cruise EGT always ~600*. As a result, mileage went noticeably up.



When I went to the Flux 2 from the 3-Flows, the cruise EGT became ~50 degrees cooler (BD twins before and after) and they were a lot less smokier. The Flux 2's also eliminated any "timing rattle" I had when running a Smarty, for example. The mileage with Flux 2 on average also noticeably increased.



As far as power goes... with the 3-Flows I have hit 596 HP one time, but haven't been able to repeat it with either the 3-Flows or Flux 2 so as far as I am concerned that dyno was a fluke. Otherwise, 3-Flows and Flux 2 have dynoed consistently ~580 rwHP and have basically been limited by these small BD twins. That problem will be resolved shortly! :-laf



These are my "real world" results. All mileage figures are hand-calculated.

 

[icman95]

Might want to check Dynomite Diesel Performance's website. Theh sell and build honed injectors and believe that these are better than EDM'd. I know the common thoughts on this matter say that EDM are better, but if you read their stuff, you can at least get a second viewpoint. I put a set of theirs in my truck and am happy with them. The one thing I've heard that can happen with honed vs EDM is that they are more likely to leak or drip into the cylinder thus using more fuel and raising smoke or EGT's. I haven't had this happen yet and am very happy with the way they pull my camper. Mileage is up slightly, too.