What do I do after biodiesel gelling?

[Sri Ram]

Temps in the upper 20s/low 30s this morning…about 90% soy biodiesel in tank. I knew it would be a crap shoot. Truck chugged to work barely making 25mph. I assume fuel filter clogged with gelled fuel. Temps should be in the 40s this afternoon. Question: am I going to have to change the filter, or will the gelled fuel 'soften' in the warmer temps and unclog itself? TIA

 

[cj hall]

gelled fuel

Hello

Yes you need to replace the filter to stop that from doing it again try some gasoline not more than 15% of whats in the tank 30 gallons of fuel 4. 5 gallons of gas. also there are products that will work in biodiesel but only up to b20.

WAS TOLD BUY A CUMMINS REP THAT ITS OK UP TO 30%

had to put some in my 04 yesterday my temps this am was 13 degs no problem I am running blend fuel at 100 % fuel temp was 19 degs,only put in one gallon that took care of it but I have a heated fass fuel system.

good luck



cj hall

 

[JGK]

DO NOT PUT GASOLINE IN YOUR DIESEL. You're asking for a screwed up engine. Yeah, it might run, but you'll be putting, like, a 100K miles of wear on your cylinder walls in a few miles.



If you must dilute your biodiesel mix to reduce the cloud point (or gell point), use, of course petrol-diesel. But kerosene will work quite well - it is basically diesel without the lubricating qualities (your bio-D makes up for that), or you can also use Jet A.



You shouldn't have to replace your filter if your fuel warms enough or you thin it with the above mentioned fuels.



My B80 mix has been good to 29* using 20% summer diesel. It will get better when I start mixing in winter diesel. This morning it was about 19* and I'd cut my mix in the tank with petrol-diesel last night to an estimated 30% mix with no problems today. My test jar of B80 next to the truck was thick like chocolate milk and creamy when I went to work at 6:15 am. But it is completely liquid again since the temps got to about 45* this afternoon.



Get some jars, put measured amounts/ratios of biod-D/petrol-D in them and set them out in the cold (or freezer) to see what they do. Use a thermometer (little battery operated ones can be had from the hardware store for cheap, and they're pretty accurate) and take notes. Then try adding a little kerosene to each to see where what ratio stays liquid with no floaties at the temps you're seeing at night. You'll find a mix you can live with fairly easily.



In Olympia, you should still be able to run about a 50% mix most of the time during the winter. Just plan to add some petrol-D if the temps are anticipated to drop overnight.



Homebrewer's have to be a little bit of a kitchen chemist/experimenter to make this stuff work in the cold seasons.



-Jay

 

[cj hall]

I call BULL

hello jgk

lets do some math



100,000 miles of wear in a few miles ok

I have been running rug in my truck for 12,000 miles so your telling me the wear on the engine is like running it for what????? a few is like 3 right so 12,000 divied by 3 is 4,000 then times buy 100,000 right thats 400,000,000 miles of wear right ?????

but I have the oil report that shows no wear out of normal they must be wrong , I think not.



if you have a problem with putting gas in your diesel then you need to say so but dont start blowing smoke about how bad it is talk to any trucker over the age of 60 and ask them what they did when it got really cold to keep the engine from gelling up. YOU MIGHT JUST LEARN SOMETHING NEW.



if jet A is ok what about jet B ???



oh buy the way you should love the ulsd it's great if you run a diesel shop

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

Just cut it with some winter blended fuel and you'll be just fine, as long as the Bio is not gelled when the Diesel fuel is added. When Diesel gells it can leave paraffin in the filter, plugging it permanantly... but Bio crystals that plug the filter will simply dissolve away once it warms up, without harming the filter.

BTW, gasoline lowers the cloud point of Diesel fuel, but I've never tested it with Bio, so I can't say it would help, but Diesel fuel and Kerosene definitely lower the cloud point and gel point of Bio, so I recommend sticking with that.



Joe

 

[JGK]

CJ,



I knew I'd catch heat from you for my statements. Yes, the comments about gas in your diesel were based on opinions, but opinions derived from what I've read by people far more qualified than I am about diesel engines and just a scoche of common sense. And my comment about wear was an exaggeration to make a point. But I'll stand by my point, that due to wear issues I'd no more put gas in my diesel then I'd put it in my motor oil under the theory that it would lubricate better when cold because it will thin it a little.



One reference you might read is at dodgeram.org. About a third of the way down the page are a few paragraphs under the heading "Some Questions answered by Josh Berman of Cummins", where gasoline is not recommended in any "models". Jet-B is also not recommended higher up in the page. Presumably due to lack of lubricating properties or additives not compatible with diesel engines. That's an assumption on my part since no reason is given. And no, I haven't read the entire page, but I'll download it and read it as time allows.



In any case, certainly if you choose to use gasoline as an additive in your fuel, do so. I'll choose not to.



-Jay

 

[Sri Ram]

Well, you never know what's going to stir things up around here!



Driving home yesterday evening, truck ran fine, temps in the mid-40s. Letting her sit today as it's in the 30s again. Supposed to be in the 50s tomorrow, so I'll give it another go. As far as changing the filter goes, I'm inclined to agree with Joe, that the cloding or gelling that was plugging the filter will dissolve once temps are favorable again. This cold weather caught me by surprise. I can usually run 100% through Nov here. I guess I'll be thinning it earlier than usual this year. Thanks for the replies.

 

[tgordon]

I wouldn't have a problem with the gas in diesel to cut it. Did it on a JD 4850, the only tractor we would have gel on us on the farm, about 5% gas or less. (the tractor has a 100gal. tank making it easy to just add a couple gallons at every fill) It now has over 10,000 hours and has never been overhauled. I wounder how strong a mix your "sources" saw run through their engins?

 

[SHobbs]

I have had B100 in the tank with no additive down to 17* with zero problems. Truck was plugged in both nights it got that low. May have been a crazy idea but I started the truck and used the engine and the fuel return line to move some warm fuel back to the tank and stir things up. Not really sure how much fuel was returned or how warm it was but it may have saved me from some potential gelling who knows.



I was told today by the owner of the place where I get my bio that a new anti-gel is on the way. He told me this stuff was tested with B100, 2 micron filter, temperature was 4 below and the pressure was 16 psi. He said the B100 never gelled and continued to flow under the above conditons. Have to wait and see if this is true or not.

 

[Sri Ram]

Temps are back in the 50s today, heavy rain(!). Changed the filter (with petro. ) and all is well.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

I think putting gasoline in your diesel does most of its harm to the pump vs. the engine internals. I only add gas with WVO, never to diesel. The most I've put in is 2 gallons and watched my pyrometer. No noticeable change.



Livin_ez of NW Bombers accidentally put enough gas in to make it 50% and drove 150 miles like that. Did that on his '97 and it still had the original pump (and untouched engine) when he sold it at 602,000.



I had about 15% WVO in my '96 when we had an all-time record low for October in Kennewick (14F, old record was 17). Truck ran fine in the AM without plugging in. Glad to hear it's supposed to be back to around 70 on Monday



Vaughn

 

[Mr. C]

I was told today by the owner of the place where I get my bio that a new anti-gel is on the way. He told me this stuff was tested with B100, 2 micron filter, temperature was 4 below and the pressure was 16 psi. He said the B100 never gelled and continued to flow under the above conditons. Have to wait and see if this is true or not.

Any information on this "new" product would be appreciated, if you could find out what it is and who makes it that would be cool. Still searching for the Holy Grail for anti-gel for B-100.

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

For a couple of years I was pretty heavily involved in looking for a Biodiesel Anti-Gel additive. I can tell you that regular diesel fuel additive doesn't work at all (Well, maybe a couple of degrees), unless there is some diesel fuel already blended into the Bio. The bulk of the current Biodiesel anti-gel research has been looking at some of the additives used in the food industry to change the cloud points of triglycerides and methyl esters. There hasn't been a ton of success, as you know. I stopped looking for a better anti-gel for a couple of reasons:

Diesel fuel and kerosene work excellently

... are both readily available,

... are relatively inexpenseive,

... can be blended in any amount,

and work perfectly in a diesel engine.

Their effect on cloud/gel point is reliable and predictable.



Just look what we do with our coolant systems. We want to lower the freeze point of the water, so we blend in anti-freeze... but it still has to be used in 50% concentrations to be most effective. Preventing water, and Biodiesel from forming crystals is a chemically simple operation. It just takes more than a few drops, ounces, or even gallons to prevent crystal formation at lower temps. With the help of a fuel heater, I've run B100 to temps into the 20's, B50 into the teens and single digits, and B20 well below zero (my record was -38F... and I was really praying for no problems). I've been stranded plenty of times for pushing the limits, and each time I rescued myself with a 5 gallon can of Kerosene, a fresh fuel filter filled with ATF and a propane torch(to heat the fuel filter).

When outside temps drop, heat and Diesel fuel are your best friends if you're running Bio. I ran homebrew Bio for 6 years and 300,000 miles. I know that doesn't make me an expert, but getting stranded gives you some fast on what works, and what doesn't.



Do I want there to be a Biodiesel Anti-gel? You bet!, but I'm not going to hold my breath when there is an excellent alternative already.



... my 2 cents.



Joe

 

[Mr. C]

I use kerosene also but I always keep an eye peeled for a better alternative.

 

[bighornram]

Where do you guys get the kerosene? It is all red dyed here. (illegal for road use).

 

[Mr. C]

Ask for clear K-1, it's used in a lot ventless space heaters. I get it at a fuel supply house, the guys that deliver home heating oil and fuel to gas stations and farms. You may or may not get charged road tax, here you do.

 

[bighornram]

You may or may not get charged road tax, here you do.

I don't mind paying the road tax. All that I can find here is red dyed K1.

 

[robertyoke]

Where do you guys get the kerosene? It is all red dyed here. (illegal for road use).

IF that is all you can find use it, pay the tax and save your receipts. IF you get caught then show the compliance officer that you did pay the tax.

-robert

 

[SHobbs]

Any information on this "new" product would be appreciated, if you could find out what it is and who makes it that would be cool. Still searching for the Holy Grail for anti-gel for B-100.

I'll make a call and see if I can get a name, Bobby the owner of the pumps said it's coming out of Oklahoma.

 

[edward.tabor]

What is a good Biodiesel to Winterized Diesel # 2 ratio to prevent jelling in temps as low as 5 degrees F. That is about the coldest it gets in these parts. During the warm months I use B100 but have in the past used B 20 in the winter, but would like to use a higher concentration of bio if I can.



Ed