What does it take to make a truck safe to tow a bigger load.

[DPeltonen]

I was reading the article on Kadell Suggs and his Mega Cab Longbed modification and started wondering. What does it take to modify a truck and have it considered safe. What did Mr. Suggs do to that truck not to raise the ire of Ken Freund (I think Ken is an excellent journalist and put a lot of stock in his experience and recommendations. When he says it is not safe, he says it for a very good reason). Even if you operate that vehicle within the weight parameters of CD as listed prior to the modification, is it really safe? These vehicles are marketed through a Dodge dealer, how does that work with CD? What would your insurance company say if you had an accident in one of these modified trucks?



I am one of the many who took a truck and added the necessary (In my opinion only) equipment to increase the towing capacity. I added the air bags, wheels, tires, exhaust brake and egt/boost gauge. Now I consider the vehicle sufficient to tow up to a combined weight of 23K.



On the surface, this sounds pretty stupid. Alas, it probably is, because it is completely outside the manufacturers specifications and published use. Now just maybe, if I chose to do this all with an engineers stamp and calculations; offered the vehicle as an aftermarket modification; and sold under my own badge. It would be considered suitable/appropriate for a higher GCVW.



If you look at the difference between my 2500 and a 3500 SRW, there is a very limited difference between the two vehicles. Primarily the difference in the number of leafs in the rear springs... and not a whole lot more. Oh I almost forgot, clearance lights on the cab. In comparison, my vehicle has a stabilized rear suspension (I can level it for optimum safety) and I have the added capability of a set of 14 ply tires all the way around (compliments of Rickson). Is my truck safe to tow to a GCVW of 23K like the 3500SRW? What would make it safe to tow up to a 26K weight (like the Chevy).



I am mostly just curious. I know I am over... . it says so on my door jam. Am I unsafe? I guess it depends on your point of view. All the equipment on my truck meets or exceeds that of the 3500. If my company made wheel/tire and suspension changes, and sold the truck with a new 26K weight sticker, would it be safe then?



So, here is the obligatory disclaimer. Before anyone weighs in on many of the folks out there pulling huge loads with no mods (except for perhaps the bombed engines and gauges), I am speaking of well thought enhancements to the vehicle physical towing capability.



What do we kids have to do to make our underrated toys safe to pull loads they are not listed on the stickers to pull? I vote someone markets a kit that comes with all the cool upgrades and finally includes a better sticker for the door that is actually legal. Can this be done?Oo.

 

[AMink]

Good questions. I always wonder how they get away with making limos out of Hummers etc. and what they have to do to keep them safe as far as brakes, suspension, and running gear to handle the extra weight. When they put the extended bed on the Mega, does the weight carrying capacity drop because the bed and the additional frame add weight to the existing capacity?

 

[Bertram65]

The trucks are not under rated, they are rated to tow or haul at capacities that take all safety parameters in account. This is something that cannot be changed or would be very difficult to do to a vehicle once it is built.

Can these trucks tow and haul more than what they are rated for? sure, can they do it within all safety parameters they were designed to comply with? no.

If you need more capacity the only solution that will ensure you are "safe" is a different vehicle with a capacity you will not exceed.

 

[DPeltonen]

The trucks are not under rated, they are rated to tow or haul at capacities that take all safety parameters in account. This is something that cannot be changed or would be very difficult to do to a vehicle once it is built.

Can these trucks tow and haul more than what they are rated for? sure, can they do it within all safety parameters they were designed to comply with? no.

If you need more capacity the only solution that will ensure you are "safe" is a different vehicle with a capacity you will not exceed.

Well said.



I keep wondering how do these aftermarket guys do it with their mods. Are they unsafe because they take the vehicle beyond the original design capabilities? If that is the case, how do they get them licensed and insured?



If you look at our components on a stock truck, you are correct in saying they are not under rated (not all of them). They are in fact right up to the limits of the wheels and tires. And just like everything else, you can only set the limit to the weakest component.



So what happens when you reinforce the weak link? As far as the other components... ... the rear axle is reported to have a 12,500 lb service rating. Our engine is often found pushing vehicle well over 30,000lbs. DC claims our frame is the strongest of all the truck manufacturers. But for the wheels tires and springs, why can't our trucks have that 26,000 combined gross weight that the GMC/Chevy has?



What reason would a manufacturer have for allowing a higher gross weight on a truck if it will interfere with the ability to sell a bigger more expensive vehicle (4500/5500). I would never believe a manufacturer would purposely under rate (by on or two components like wheels and tires) a truck just to be able to sell the next model up... .



All I want to know is, what does it take to make it legal? That of course is assuming it is already safe.

 

[RJOL]

If you look at the difference between my 2500 and a 3500 SRW, there is a very limited difference between the two vehicles. Primarily the difference in the number of leafs in the rear springs... and not a whole lot more.

This is exactly why a lot of us have gone to the 3500 Dually. You have mitigated some of the issues with your 2500 by installing better tires, air bags, etc, and your truck will probably be a safer vehicle for towing the loads you are looking for. Is it legal and are you protected against all claims in the event of an accident??? I don't know... . I'm not a lawyer...

 

[BillGotthelf]

You really need to read the fine print in your insurance contract. Most insurance companies can and will refuse a clain if "the vehicle is operating outside of the manufacturers specifications". If the truck has a GCVW of 19000 lbs and you have a wreck and weigh 22000 look out. Also some states have DOT rules that deal with this also. In Florida if you are operating outside the manufacturers specifications and there is an accident resulting in a fatality you could be held criminally liable as well as civilly even if the accident was not your fault.

 

[J&LRam]

GCWR/GVWR tags on our truck are not anything legal but are a recommenadtion BUT Dodge can use them to deny warranty if your truck has a problem . We have uprate state set GVWR tags that are available for our trucks. For example in my state we can uprate our 2500 GVWR to a 15000 max as my truck has. Also insurance companies insure our trucks based on legal GVWR numbers and it sure isn't the truck manufactors GVWR. GCWR is a performance number and is nothing legal. Check you state for uprate tags/stickers/registration/titles or what ever your state uses for the legal GVWR numbers.

JIM

 

[jelag]

I own several 3500 dually that work for a living... . we've used fords and dodges for the past 20 years... .

We currently tow trailers that weigh up to 22K lbs..... our only change has been to move to hyd disc brakes on all the trailers over 15K lbs... . we use brake smart controllers... we still don't feel like we have enough brakes for the load...

We have no problems with HP and hills and with the exhaust brakes we don't have a problem going down hills... and we see 150K miles on brake jobs...

But stopping that load..... in traffic when some fool pulls in front of you is the issue that bothers me... . I'm moving all my stuff into the 5500 series when they are available... for the additional stopping power of the larger chassis truck.....

 

[WVanHemert]

GCWR/GVWR tags on our truck are not anything legal but are a recommenadtion

Jim, That may be the case where you live but in Alberta, Canada, and I am sure a lot of other places, those tags are the law, you cannot raise the weight ratings above the tags, period.

By the way I worked for several years at the government transportation office and had lots of time to discuss this issue with the transport safety officers.

 

[BillGotthelf]

J&L Ram maybe in the state where you live this may be true but I bet you will have all sorts of legal trouble if you are involved in an accident with a fatality and you are operating outside the specifications set forth by the manufacturer. There is case law in every state. Every major police department has traffic homicide investigators. Ask them. Get a copy of your auto insurance policy-a full policy and read the exclusions area. It is standard verbage they all use "operating outside the parameters set up by the manufacturer". Overloaded is the biggest exclusion. If an aftermarket company says you can increase your gvw or gcvw by adding their product or by having them change the truck then they assume the liability for difference. There is case law for that too.

 

[J&LRam]

argue all you want but check your state set " legal " GVWR. Its very easy to drop by the tag office and see what your state uses. I'm telling you what my state uses. Others are simular.

My insurance company insures my trucks legal GVWR and it sure isn't just the manufactors numbers. What if's and should be's don't cut it when it comes to legals. Check with your own state for what is legal. I have and its been that way for more than the 40 years I 've used these trucks making a living and just towing a RV.

As far as Canada goes their are lots of Canadians on RV.net that will disagree with your interpetation on what is the legal GVWR for their trucks.

Longhaulers/hotshoters run in Canada and USA hauling/towing over the truck manufactors GVWR and are legal. How do they do it ?? Why not check with your tag/registration office for the real legals.

JIM

 

[BDeMartile]

argue all you want but check your state set " legal " GVWR. Its very easy to drop by the tag office and see what your state uses. I'm telling you what my state uses. Others are simular.

My insurance company insures my trucks legal GVWR and it sure isn't just the manufactors numbers. What if's and should be's don't cut it when it comes to legals. Check with your own state for what is legal. I have and its been that way for more than the 40 years I 've used these trucks making a living and just towing a RV.

As far as Canada goes their are lots of Canadians on RV.net that will disagree with your interpetation on what is the legal GVWR for their trucks.

Longhaulers/hotshoters run in Canada and USA hauling/towing over the truck manufactors GVWR and are legal. How do they do it ?? Why not check with your tag/registration office for the real legals.

JIM

So Jim,

Do I hear you correctly that I could have my non-commercial truck rated higher at the dmv and then go to my insurance company to insure it at that weight. Or is this only for commercial haulers. Any one in California know how tis works in our befuddled state?

Thanks Brian

 

[J&LRam]

thats correct. Most states are simular. I haven't a clue on what CA uses for commercial GVWR or non commercial GVWR on our trucks. I refuel at three different truck stops and talk with folks that run non commercial and/or DOT numbers that have uprate GVWR numbers from different states for their 2500/3500/4500 trucks. Some use stickers/some have tags/some have registration as my state. Here its a simple stop at the local tag office. Check with the state your truck is registered in for uprate GVWR for your truck.

JIM

 

[JThiessen]

Just a few thoughts here:

One portion of offering a retail product (be it a vehicle, or a kit to change a vehicles parameters) is that to be recognized by the DOT, a licensed engineer would be needed to validate that product. He/she puts their name on it, and is legally responsible for any failures of that product if it fails when operated within the parameters it is sold/advertised under.



I believe that J&L is correct in that you in fact can get the GVWR revised on a vehicle. But I'm not positive that he has the requirements stated correctly. I THINK that they have some differentiation between vehicles sold like a semi tractor, or HD vehicles like 4500's/5500's, and how they are equipped. I'm not sure that you could drive up with your 2500 and say that you added heavier shocks and be given a revised sticker with no questions asked - that just doesnt make any practical sense, why would they do that?

 

[WVanHemert]

Well Jim I just took your advice and sat down over lunch with a TSO (Traffic Safety Officer) in the province of Alberta, and he brought the Regulations with him, in Alberta there is no "LEGAL" way to increase the manufacturers ratings. Lots of people do it, there is no requirement to stop at the weigh scales for RV's in Alberta however, once you cross the border to BC, different story.

And the TSO officers have the right to stop anybody and weigh them tire by tire if they so want. In fact my uncle was forced last year to shift stuff around in his trailer cause the TSO officer "THOUGHT" his trailer looked poorly balanced, he didn't even weigh it.

The only exclusion to this is what are called hand built or kit built vehicles, and you personally assume the liability to prove that the vehicle is safe if involved in an accident where the police or TSO's feel that your vehicle caused the accident.

 

[Hoefler]

Purchase a vehicle that is engineered to haul the intended load in the first place. Over loaded vehicles are an accident waiting to happen and the Paramedics, Law enforcement personnel, and Firefighters ( like my self ) are left to clean up the mess created by some one who thinks they are better engineers than the people who built these trucks. There is more involved than adding air bags, extra leafs, bigger tires, etc. . that affect load capacity. That is why your after market add ons all say "Do not exceed the manufacturers stated load capacities. "

 

[J&LRam]

I didn't say we change the truck manufactors weight rating. As far as I know it can't be done. I said our state sets what GVWR we haul at. Even Canada has uprate [paper] avaliable according to other folks from Canada that haul contract. Load your truck they way you want but many of us use uprate GVWR endorsments that is legal and many just use the truck manufactors GVWR. My 2500 Dodge/Cummins carries a 15000 GVWR non commercial endorsement. Commercial endorsement is the same weights but cost 35 bucks [go figure]Its your/my choice.

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Hoefler

so the folks out their longhauling/hotshoting with uprate tags are creating havoc and carnage on our roads because they haul/pull over the truck manufactors weight numbers. Get real. We have used uprate tags much longer than the 45+ years I've been driveing these trucks.

'do not exceed the manufactors stated load capacities' is a product warranty disclaimer just like Cummins uses. so we don't 'bomb' our trucks.

Once again, check with your state for uprate endorsements or whatever your state calls it.

JIM

 

[jelag]

I have had 2 of my trucks licensed for commercial use..... in both cases they have had license plates that allow me to tow a trailer that weighs 24K lbs max...



The only time we've had any issues with this... . is during safety inspections... . at the scale house they don't seem to care what the rating is on the truck as long as I've not exceeded the maximum cap. of the tires... they look at how the tires are rated, and come up with a max weight on the front axle and rear axle... . the trailer is different... they look at the decal that gives max weight for the axles..... 24K lbs and won't let us exceed that.....



Lets say that the tires on the truck are rated at 3200 lbs... that means that we've had up to 6000 on the front axle 12000 on the drive axle (dually) and 24 on the trailer..... We've never been this heavy but I can remember several times of crossing the scales at 32 or 33K total weight..... at this weight we had problems going up the hills... . just had to put it in a lower gear and wait for it to crawl up the hill... . never had an overheat problem at 110* outside temp... . and with the exhaust brake never had a problem going down a grade... .



The problem was in heavy traffic and someone pulling in front of us..... but never had a problem from the guys at the scales... . as long as all requirements were met... . (log book, safety inspection, etc)



We've since moved one of these rigs up to a 3 axle truck rated at 56K lbs and to be honest it stops in 1/2 the distance... and climbs hills better and gets 1/2 mpg less..... but costs us at least 30% or more in fees, and license that the 1 ton didn't cost us..... the other truck we've moved to a smaller trailer...



Hope this helps... .

 

[SAndreasen]

my truck is registerd at 30,000 gvw. i am a lot more worried about the bean cans flying around town 90mph with stupid kids that have no clue where the vehicle even is in relation to to traffic killing some one than a guy that pays attention And keeps his equipment in good safe working order honestly a semi hauling 40,000 gvw can be just as deadly as a 2500 hauling forty thousand gvw. if the dip**** behind the wheel isnt looking ahead and watching whats going on around him#@$%!

 

[JThiessen]

I think that in a nut shell one can likely get uprate tags from DOT (who are mostly concerned with tire and axle loading on their precious pavement), but if you are in excess of your manufacture ratings, you place yourself in a position of being liable for damages in case of a law suit.