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What does it take to make a truck safe to tow a bigger load.

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Taken from the BC regulations:
What is the difference between the licensed weight shown on my Owner's Certificate and the GVWR stamped on the vehicle itself? When a vehicle is licensed, the owner pays a licensing fee based on the weight they plan to carry and tow. This fee helps to offset the costs of maintaining B. C. 's roads and highways. An additional licensing fee can be paid to increase the amount a vehicle is licensed to carry and tow, provided that amount does not exceed the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. These fees are in place to accommodate vehicles with a capacity to carry larger loads.
 
I started this thread with the hope that I would get some insight on a couple of things:



1. What exactly is done to "create" a more capable vehicle when an aftermarket modification is made to the vehicle. i. e. limo stretch or equipment mods that significantly change the vehicle. For all the discussion of what is legal on this site regarding tow weights, no one seems to say much about these vehicles... . when in fact some are significantly changed from stock. I have not read any discussion regarding suspension changes. How safe is it to raise a vehicle over the manufacturers original height. How about all the folks putting on the "leveling" kit. All of these mods are outside the scope of the manufacturers original design. Would that not "void" your insurance if you were in an accident..... don't these mods change the handling characteristics of the vehicle?



2. What is the vehicle "really" built to haul? To say these vehicles are not over built is essentially up for debate. In 2006 the GCVW for a 2500 was 20,000 lbs. The 3500 is 23,000, and that is for both the SRW and DRW. What is the true difference between the vehicles? Overload leafs in the rear springs for the SRW! So what did DC change on the 2007 3500's to raise the GCVW to 24,000? You would be hard pressed to say the increase in HP allowed the increase.



I have researched several state motor vehicle codes regarding weight and towing restrictions. For the most part they are focused on limits regarding roadways and not the vehicles themselves. The occasional tire or axle reference, but not much more. I did run across a prohibition of suspension modifications for Colorado. Sorry guys, by those rules, any lift or leveling kit puts us in violation. I am still looking at Federal statutes regarding vehicle design and operations, but have not run across anything interesting yet. As far as state statutes, what I have seen is a couple of references to manufacturer axle and GCVW. What was stipulated in the regs was, you cannot exceed the tire weight, but can exceed the GCVW if you pay for the privilege. I never did see any specific prohibitions regarding private vehicles and weights. Everything I came across was specific to commercial vehicles. What I suspect is, you can be stopped and cited for anything the officer may find unsafe in his opinion. There are always catch-all regs to allow the odd situation where there is not a specific statute covering the situation. If anybody is interested, you can be satisfied that just about all of us can be cited for any change to our vehicles that is not specifically approved by the manufacturer if it can be proved (in the opinion of the citing official) that it may affect safety or be a violation covered under any state regulation. That would include everything from a brite box install to window tint. If you are involved in an accident, anything that has been done to your truck may be brought into question by your (or the other person's) insurance company.



As far as the point of this thread is concerned, I am satisfied that the debate will continue as long as we have something cool, or fun to do to our trucks. It appears that, depending on the state (or country), the regulations regarding what or how much you can tow legally will vary. As far as the liability is concerned, it again depends on the state and insurance company. My insurance company is aware that I tow a large trailer with a 2500. I specifically told them when I insured the trailer.



After all is said, I am sitting here wondering about 2 ton difference in vehicle weight between my truck and a new 3500. Not to many answers forth coming regarding the facts, although a few folks weighed in on the fact that a 2500 missing a couple of leafs in the rear springs was unsafe and not designed to tow more than the sticker weight on the door jam. Personally I thought the statement "Purchase a vehicle that is engineered to haul the intended load in the first place. Over loaded vehicles are an accident waiting to happen", while well intentioned, did not address reality (within the context of this thread) when it comes to the differences between the 2500 and 3500. My 2500 "is" engineered to haul 24,000 lbs as safely as a 3500 (taking into account the rear springs). The tag on the door says 20,000 lbs, but this does not reflect the true capacity of this vehicle.



We will never have consensus on what is appropriate regarding what we do with our vehicles. Because we are not all clones, we all have different opinions on what we should do, and what is safe. The best thing about TDR is we have the opportunity to solicit the opinions of thousand of folks all over the country about our vehicles and use. I learn something new every time I read a thread, and enjoy every opinion regardless of the fact that it may not be in line with my own. My personal feeling is that, everyone is correct regarding the opinions expressed because they are telling me what they use as their guide. I can disagree, but that does not make me right. I just want to say thanks to everyone that weighed in on this thread. Especially to those that think I am way off base in my opinions. You are the ones that give pause to those of us doing the (crazy?) things we do. I can’t say I have learned as much from those who agree with me.





I think I should change my handle to longwinded……
 
Great Thread! I just Wanted to throw this out there. My 94 3500, says in the owners manual, that my GCVWR is "14000 pounds with 3. 55 rear axle, and 18000 punds with a 4. 10 rear axle. " The only reason, In my Mind, that two identical trucks, side by side, with the only difference being the Gear set in the rear axle Could have a 2 ton difference in tow capacty is for Warranty purposes. I firmly believe that my Auto trans is worked much harder by my 3. 55 gears, than it would be with 4:10's. So is Dodge shorting my GCVWR by 2 tons, to help my transmission live through the warranty period? Seems like it. If towing over GCVWR is Illegal, am I forever condemmed to tow 4K punds less than those with 4. 10 gears, because I chose axle ratios that suit me? Better yet, If My owners manual says 18K pounds is OK with 4. 10 gears, Can I swap out gears, & have the 18K GCVWR?



I Believe there is much more to this story than Safety. fact is, none of us know How Chrysler sets these numbers . I bet it would suprise all of us if we knew the truth of the matter. P.
 
I would think the difference between the GCVWR and the gear ratio has to do with the amount of weight the truck can pull effectively up and down a hill/mountain. The truck is the same, but the 4. 10 gearing allows the engine to be capable of pulling a heavier load. The 3. 55 gearing with the heavier load would bog down the motor and trans which would shorten the life span of that part.
 
Good summary DPeltonen, with one exception:

My 2500 "is" engineered to haul 24,000 lbs as safely as a 3500 (taking into account the rear springs). The tag on the door says 20,000 lbs, but this does not reflect the true capacity of this vehicle.

I think you are projection your personal feelings/hopes into this statement, because you dont have any facts to back that up. A person would have to do a part number by part number comparison of each vehicle to come up with a valid conclusion of wether your 2500 is "engineered" to tow as much as a 3500. For all legal intents and purposes, that tag on the door is all you can go by. There is a reason they dont sell the 2500 with the added capacity of a 3500, and given the low cost of a set of overloads, its gotta be something more than that.
 
Good summary DPeltonen, with one exception:



I think you are projection your personal feelings/hopes into this statement, because you dont have any facts to back that up. A person would have to do a part number by part number comparison of each vehicle to come up with a valid conclusion of wether your 2500 is "engineered" to tow as much as a 3500. For all legal intents and purposes, that tag on the door is all you can go by. There is a reason they dont sell the 2500 with the added capacity of a 3500, and given the low cost of a set of overloads, its gotta be something more than that.



On the surface it would seem so. In fact it is.



My statement regarding the engineering of these two trucks is based on a line item comparison. The time I spent going through the parts list comparing the 3500 SRW with the 2500 showed identical parts for both vehicles with the exception of badging and springs. I will admit that this perusal of the parts list was for the 06 and not the 07, so it would be more accurate to say 23,000 vice 24,000 due to the fact I am making an assumption regarding the 07. As far as facts go, just because I don't present them, doesn't mean I didn't have/verify them. I didn't present any facts (other than my statements) because this is not a paper submitted to an organized body. Aside from the looking and investigation that I have done, it really is all about personal opinion in the end... . as it will always be unless you are the engineer that published the specs.



The money I spent on the air bags was significantly less than the $1000 difference between the 2500 and 3500 SRW. Also I like the ride of the 2500 better than the 3500 too. The remaining money I saved on the difference went to adding personalized accessories not offered by DC. I'm still looking for the rhinestone trim rings for the mirrors though. :-laf
 
Comparing 2500 to 3500

DPeltonen:



I appreciate the question and research on this topic. I was wondering whether you might have called DC. Do they have an official response on the difference between the 2500 and 3500 other than what the tag says?



It seems a common theme that the only difference is the rear springs.



They both have the same 11. 5inch rear axle. I was looking at the bodybuilder site and found it interesting that the base weight of the rear axle is 2973lb. and the GAWR is 6010lb. Assuming the base weight is the weight of the truck on the rear axle, and then add the payload rating of 1600, it still has 1400lb. before GAWR. What else should be included that would reach the GAWR?



Comparing 2500/3500

GVRW - 9000/10,100

Pay - 1600/2690

Base Frontaxle - 4431/4435

Base Rearaxle - 2973/2976

GAWR Front - 4750/4750

GAWR Rear - 6010/6200

Weight -7404/7411

GCWR - 20000/21000

Trailer - 12450/13450



As you can see above, the only real difference is the 1,000lb. payload and thus GCWR and GVWR. Everything else is within a few lbs (except the 190lb. GAWR Rear). I would have expected the GAWR rear to be a lot higher between the 2500/3500 due to payload being much higher on the 3500.
 
Payload appears to be the ruff difference between the GVWR and Weight. The 2500 Rear GAWR of 6010 will never be reached as there is only 1600 payload available. Why do they even sell 2500's, or better yet, why would anyone purchase a 2500. At least in the 2nd gens they offered a camper package with the heavier springs. SNOKING
 
As you can see above, the only real difference is the 1,000lb. payload and thus GCWR and GVWR. Everything else is within a few lbs (except the 190lb. GAWR Rear). I would have expected the GAWR rear to be a lot higher between the 2500/3500 due to payload being much higher on the 3500.



If you compare equal vehicles, the real difference is 3,000 lbs. Of the three configurations listed, you chose the 48RE with a 3. 73. The G56/3. 73 has a 1 ton increase over that combo. My truck has the G56/3. 73. As far as expecting a significant increase in the rear GAWR, can't happen unless you change the tires. At 3195 per, 6200 lbs is only 190 lbs below the limit. At the max you could only get 6390. Since this is the "exact" axle the DRW uses (save the shaft ends) we are still well below any kind of limit axle capability. Even with my Ricksons I can only get 9K..... 350 lbs less than the DRW rating.



After checking more of your numbers, I gave up. Here are the real numbers for models DH7P42/D18P42(SRW):



GVRW - 9000/9900

Pay - 1840/2640

Base Frontaxle - 4435/4457

Base Rearaxle - 2728/2798

GAWR Front - 5200/5200

GAWR Rear - 6010/6200

Weight - 7162/7255

GCWR - 20000/23000

Trailer - 12700/15600





As far as asking DC why? I don't think I would waste the time. You think they would admit to charging $1000 for $20 of extra steel in the rear springs? Just like at DMV, you pay for a higher weight rating with DC too.
 
"There is more involved than adding air bags, extra leafs, bigger tires, etc. . that affect load capacity.



What, for instance ... beyond the sticker on the door? (Let's see, same frame, same engine, same clutch, same axles, same transmission, same driveline, same everything else) Seems to me like the guy did everything the manufacturer would do and then some. (air bags are more expensive and more capable than a couple of springleaves)



I believe the door sticker has a lot to do with CYA by D/C. Put a low rating on the vehicle and then if anything breaks, they absolve themselves by saying you modified their vehicle and it was used outside it's designed parameters. Pretty good out, if you ask me. It'd take a real good lawyer and lots of $$$ to beat them if they went to court on it.



Do you think even D/C thinks you're only gonna load 800 lbs or so in their 3/4 ton truck? Thats all it would take on mine after the added weight of the better tires, wheels, jake and 5th wheel to be at the door sticker rating. Gee. That means I could pull, maxxed out, a 5th wheel trailer weighing 5,335 lbs if it had only a 15% hitch weight. That's probably be overstressing that mighty Cummins alright. The rest of the truck too.



Maybe it's my farmer mentality, but I'm pretty sure my truck'll handle a lot more than that --- and do it safely. Seems like my state (Nevada) thinks so too. They just licensed it for 12,000 GVW -- cost $106. 00 to make everybody as safe as if they were in their momma's arms.



It's like a lot of other regulations that are $$$ driven. When 53' trailers first came out, in Idaho it all of a sudden required an overlength permit to pull them over certain routes. Give the state their $$ and all of a sudden it went from being unsafe to safe for the same tractor to pull the same trailer over the same roads that it was previously (30 seconds or so) unsafe for them to drive on. Amazing, ain't it? And it's still that way 20 years later! How much extra cash do you figure they generated from that?



This debate will go on forever. How high is up anyway?
 
If you compare equal vehicles, the real difference is 3,000 lbs. Of the three configurations listed, you chose the 48RE with a 3. 73. The G56/3. 73 has a 1 ton increase over that combo. My truck has the G56/3. 73. As far as expecting a significant increase in the rear GAWR, can't happen unless you change the tires. At 3195 per, 6200 lbs is only 190 lbs below the limit. At the max you could only get 6390. Since this is the "exact" axle the DRW uses (save the shaft ends) we are still well below any kind of limit axle capability. Even with my Ricksons I can only get 9K..... 350 lbs less than the DRW rating.



After checking more of your numbers, I gave up. Here are the real numbers for models DH7P42/D18P42(SRW):



GVRW - 9000/9900

Pay - 1840/2640

Base Frontaxle - 4435/4457

Base Rearaxle - 2728/2798

GAWR Front - 5200/5200

GAWR Rear - 6010/6200

Weight - 7162/7255

GCWR - 20000/23000

Trailer - 12700/15600





As far as asking DC why? I don't think I would waste the time. You think they would admit to charging $1000 for $20 of extra steel in the rear springs? Just like at DMV, you pay for a higher weight rating with DC too.





The numbers I posted are for a 2007. 5 with the 6. 7L and 68RFE auto and 3. 73gear ratio (SRW for the 3500). Are we comparing the same truck configuration? They were right from the dodge.com/bodybuilder site.
 
What, for instance ... beyond the sticker on the door? (Let's see, same frame, same engine, same clutch, same axles, same transmission, same driveline, same everything else) Seems to me like the guy did everything the manufacturer would do and then some. (air bags are more expensive and more capable than a couple of springleaves)





I agree with TAbbott, the only differences between a 2500 and a 3500 are the stickers on the door and different leaf springs.
 
I agree with TAbbott, the only differences between a 2500 and a 3500 are the stickers on the door and different leaf springs.



A guy checked his Ford by part number a few years ago when Ford was increasing GVWs and found NO changes in the truck except the sticker too!

As for as upgrading trucks to "stop a trailer" you are really asking for trouble. I pulled a tri-axle gooseneck for years at a GCW of up to 32500# with D150 to D350 trucks and never counted on any of them to help stop the trailer. If the trailer didn't help stop the truck, I worked on the trailer brakes!
 
I agree, tgrfan2. My D350 is rated to haul/ stop 10100lbs. ANYTHING beyond that should be taken up by the trailer brakes (even 1 horse in a 2 horse trailer), though there have been a few times on back roads (2 lane w/o the stripe) the truck had to stop 20K of hay and trailer from about 40mph.



I also think GCVWs and the rest of the lettered ratings have to take into account the driving styles of today's average modern driver- one pedal or the other to the floor. My g/f's brother was commenting on how his Honda SUV got about the same MPGs as my dually. If I drove my dually the way he drives his SUV, I'd get in the low teens on a good week. And so, that style spills over into towing/ hauling. The truck has to be able to stop 11K (or whatever its GVW is) in the same space that SUV can stop, or close to it. Nevermind "commons sense" that says you need more space to stop a heavier load (exception being semis, but we arent talking about them), and "sane" people would allow more space, and watch the sides for that idiot to pull out in front of you to test your brakes for you.



Good thread, lots of good info.



Daniel
 
Ok, good thread here, just read all of it and I am in the same boat as the starter of this thread.



I have a 01 2nd gen 2500. some of you know mw and my rig and my RV. . I have a 36' 5th toyhauler that has a 12' garage. I put a sand rail in there and total it weighs 15k on 3 axles... . I also have a 14' utility trailer which is 2 axle, one of them has a brake. A yamaha Rhino goes on that. the length of the 2 trailers is legal for Utah, the 2nd trailer will get brakeing signal from a second controller under the rear of the 5th to have a mild signal for the utility... .



Now, all this weighs about 17K full loaded. and I will be just under 26 k total (havent weighed it yet... estimated). . the truck has Edge EZ, hybrid 35/40 turbo, Jacobs E-brake, 2nd stage injectors, Blue chip fueling box (wire tap), FASS fuel pump, Horton fan clutch, Brake guard Air/hydraulic boost canisters, EGR rear disk conversion, slotted front rotor with carbon kevlar pads, mag hytec diff cover F & R, fast coolers on 5600, Roadmaster springs from Mr. bobs, Ricksons forged aluminum 19. 5 rims and Michelin XDE MS 245/ 70 R 19. 5" ... F rated 12 ply tires. Rated at 4080# per tire at 95 psi. I am now looking to get 4:10 gears as it is hard to get rolling in 1st gear. after I get rolling, it does well.



I had the E tires with this trailer and it felt "squishy" on the truck tires when aired up. . the 12 ply tires makes the ride very well. the truck sits level when loaded and I get 9 to 10 mpg towing.



I would like to get the new 4500 or 5500 trucks but have a lot vested in this. I feel that when I get the new low gears, I will have a better capable rig.



When our 2nd gen trucks came out, the only difference in the 2500 and 3500 was 2 extra tires and bigger wheel cylinders for the drum brakes. . Total gross combined weight was very close due to the extra tires and Long bed. My SRW truck with the commercial tires is very strong and stable even in a crosswind or mountain road curves. . I need to add an aftermarket shock kit for the 5th as it sways a bit in the wind but other than that, my truck acts like a 4500 when loaded. . I can pull this weight up a 6% grade at 55 mph and going down, just gear down 1 gear and use the jake and no problem... . did have to do a hard stop one time and was able to do pretty good... . wasn't pushed too bad...



So any truck can be beefed up, and if your state or locality is able to register higher, then go for it. when I get rich, Ill buy a C & C when I tow more. . but until that day, Ill keep my 01 beast.
 
Here if a trailer is over 2500# empty wgt it is supposed to have brakes. Of course loading the trailer correctly and keeping the brakes working is seldom a high priority!
My wife is a good driver although she can't stand for another truck to pass her. When she asked about learning to pull a trailer I said no way. I just tell her she watches too much NASCAR to pull loads.
 
What a topic! I'm planning to buy and tow a gooseneck but with 3. 54s and the door sticker, should a switch to 4. 10s be made to improve drivetrain life only and limit myself to the rating on the door sticker? Would California license my truck to match the GVW of a 4. 10 equipped 2500 4x4?
 
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