What's the word on the Quadzilla DL?

[OT-OF-HERE!!]

Anyone running the Quad DL? What's your input and impressions? Anyone stacking it? With what? Results????

 

[Not_Agn]

stacked?

Anyone as of yet stack either downloader with the tst? Considering it myslef, but was wondering about too much timing/etc? Lee.

 

[DLeno]

oh. my. word.

 

[lmills]

I have, saw about 30 hp increase with the bullydog downloader and tst.

 

[Tomeygun]

oh. my. word.

I second that!



The timing would be ohhh, lets say 12*(from tst)and maybe 6* (from DL'er)... thats some crazy timing, of course I have no idea what the DL'er is really doing to timing, just a guess



While we are at it throw a VAC3. 2 on there, the injector might just stay on the whole time!!!



Give me a TST plus light pressure and call it macaroni

(ok,ok, give me twins while your at it)

 

[realsquash]

Ugh. They could make that downloader good for 200hp if they wanted to. It pains me to read threads about "stacking" when it's so stupid in the modern world.



Andy

 

[lmills]

The only guys crying about stacking these boxes are the ones that won't try it. I did, the only problem I had was a fuel delivery issue. As for 200 HP out of a bullydog downloader... ... ... sure, you go ahead and call bullydog and tell them you want their hot program for 200 hp. I'll bet they don't have one and they probably won't either. The only vendor currently offer a wide rage of programs is TST. He has some very wild programs. Trust me, I have stacked quite a few things. You all can refer to it as being stupid, but have you ever seen a 24 valve in previous years break 500 hp without changing injectors?

 

[DLeno]

The only guys crying about stacking these boxes are the ones that won't try it. I did, the only problem I had was a fuel delivery issue. As for 200 HP out of a bullydog downloader... ... ... sure, you go ahead and call bullydog and tell them you want their hot program for 200 hp. I'll bet they don't have one and they probably won't either. The only vendor currently offer a wide rage of programs is TST. He has some very wild programs. Trust me, I have stacked quite a few things. You all can refer to it as being stupid, but have you ever seen a 24 valve in previous years break 500 hp without changing injectors? But don't worry for those that think I am totally stupid and nuts, within a couple months you will be seeing another change to one of the "big name" boxes which will eliminate the need to stack boxes. I will then be running their box and most like theirs alone. Note I said most likely. Their is no guarantee that I will not still stack.

dern right I won't try it. I dont' use my $40,000 truck as a smoke test and yes I do think its stupid to stack two boxes without first trying to understand the effect of each, and the combination of both. No offense to those who do it, and I'll be eagerly watching from the side, but not on my truck. thats like somebody hands you equal molar amounts of a certain acid and a certain base, saying "go ahead, mix them together and drink it -- its just salt and water".





There are some very good stacks (TST and pressure) and some very bad stacks (two boxes that both do timing and add to each other). I sure wouldn't risk putting holes in my pistons without more data and a better understanding of what is really going on. But I guess if you think the measure of succees is more power in the short term, more power to ya.



yup I think Mark should add pressure. that would be totally good. then Edge will catch on and do the same thing, and we'll have a very nice race to watch.



As for the C3. 2 doing 200 HP, I dont' think so. they have the same limitation as the bullydog downloader -- the on-board 90v supply. the serious duration boxes provide their own...

 

[lmills]

yeah, don't you know it. My truck is 15 months old with over 50,000 miles on it. Over 45,000 miles modded. Never been to the shop for anything but an oil leak. If someone doesn't have the coomon sense to know when to let up with two boxes stacked, then they probably won't let up with one either. I have personally witnessed someone blow a headgasket with nothing more than an EZ. I sold the box to him. Also as mentioned before , there are quite a few guys running the duramaxes stacking two timing boxes with excellent results. And, if nobody is willing to try it, how are we actually going to learn???Are we supposed to just sit back and continue to assume what will happen? So far that's all I seem to be hearing from the naysayers. The only way to find out is to try it. Not assume. As for the stacking, no I have never made an attempt to run both the TST and bullydog on the extreme sttings at the same time. That is where most of you are missing the point. You try combinations of the two to find the best setting. Same goes for the pressure boxes. Most of the guys have found to make the most power with the TST you need to drop back slightly on the pressure. You don't go for the highest setting they offer. I made my best run with the TST on 8-8 and the pressure box on the 50 setting. Anything higher and I lost power.

 

[realsquash]

The only guys crying about stacking these boxes are the ones that won't try it. I did, the only problem I had was a fuel delivery issue. As for 200 HP out of a bullydog downloader... ... ... sure, you go ahead and call bullydog and tell them you want their hot program for 200 hp. I'll bet they don't have one and they probably won't either. The only vendor currently offer a wide rage of programs is TST. He has some very wild programs. Trust me, I have stacked quite a few things. You all can refer to it as being stupid, but have you ever seen a 24 valve in previous years break 500 hp without changing injectors?

My point is that it shouldn't be nessesary to stack boxes when it can be done with ECM programming alone.



Andy

 

[Jeff_K]

... As for the C3. 2 doing 200 HP, I dont' think so. they have the same limitation as the bullydog downloader -- the on-board 90v supply. the serious duration boxes provide their own...

It CAN'T be done with ECM programming alone.

 

[lmills]

My point is that it shouldn't be nessesary to stack boxes when it can be done with ECM programming alone.



Andy

I know exactly what you mean. I feel the same way. The problem is you won't find too many vendors willing to offer a hotter program. TST is the only one currently willing to work with you.

 

[DLeno]

I'm certainly all for learning, but personally I wouldnt even hook up two timing boxes without understanding them a bit first. they weren't designed with each other in mind and they each had power as a design goal. My approach would be to hook up a scope and see what if anything can be learned. all I'm saying is do a theoretical reality check before you do the smoke test. The former is less expensive if you fail. I would guess that Mark advanced timing as much as he felt he should, in which case at the very least you are violating Mark's own limits by stacking. but who knows, maybe the reason he can't do more than x degrees in timing is due to the physical interface, and maybe advancing timing beyond what the downloader has been programmed for wont' blow anything up. I just won't go into such an experiment blind. As I say, it depends on your definition of success and how you will know if you have acheived it.

 

[DLeno]

It CAN'T be done with ECM programming alone.

I'll repeat here for emphasis: the ECM programming, such as delivered by the bullydog downloader, or even in the case of digital duration as in the VA C3. 2, is LIMITED. you can dial up all the duration you want, but that doesn't mean the on-board hardware is able to acheive it.



Thats like reading commanded rail pressure off of the CAN bus and then claiming that you have acheived x PSI rail pressure.



clue: the presence of an injector harness (TST and Edge) shows that the box is not limited by the on board 90v supply (thats what supplies the energy to hold the injector open).



Jeff is right: it CAN NOT all be done with ECM programming alone, nor can it all be done VA (C3. 2) style.

 

[realsquash]

I'll repeat here for emphasis: the ECM programming, such as delivered by the bullydog downloader, or even in the case of digital duration as in the VA C3. 2, is LIMITED. you can dial up all the duration you want, but that doesn't mean the on-board hardware is able to acheive it.



Thats like reading commanded rail pressure off of the CAN bus and then claiming that you have acheived x PSI rail pressure.



clue: the presence of an injector harness (TST and Edge) shows that the box is not limited by the on board 90v supply (thats what supplies the energy to hold the injector open).



Jeff is right: it CAN NOT all be done with ECM programming alone, nor can it all be done VA (C3. 2) style.

So how much current can the ECM provide to the injectors? Is that the issue? Just pointing out that the TST has an injector harness doesn't mean anything.



So why can't it be done eith ECM programming alone? I still haven't heard a reason.



Andy

 

[Yo Hoot]

clue: the presence of an injector harness (TST and Edge) shows that the box is not limited by the on board 90v supply (thats what supplies the energy to hold the injector open).



Jeff is right: it CAN NOT all be done with ECM programming alone, nor can it all be done VA (C3. 2) style.

DOesn't really take much to hold the injector open. The solenoids only do a pressure bypass, the fuel rail pressure is what lifts the pintle.



I think the 90v is more for the multiple events (pre, main and post)

 

[Gypsyman]

Lloyd



We've spoken before via e-mail but refresh my memory. Was your 510 run TST and pressure alone or was the DL also used?



Richard

 

[DLeno]

Well what follows is my opinion based on my interpretations of what I have been exposed to.



Energy is the issue, not current, and this energy is supplied by an on-board cap. the size of the cap and the number of times it is incrementally charged in between injector events is what determines the energy available to hold open the injector. the injector is held open by the 90v side, not by the ECM which supplies a 12v signal. All the ECM does is send a 12v firing signal to the 90v side, but it is the 90v side that actually holds the injector open. The actual circuitry is a bit more complex and quite clever, but thats the gist of it.



saying that any arbitrary duration is possible if it can be commanded digitally is like saying any arbitrary rail pressure is possible if it can be digitally commanded. Yet we know the ECM doesn't (itself) raise rail pressure. it only gives rail pressure commands to something else that performs the work. actual rail pressure is limited by the CP3 and the set point of the pressure relief valve. By the same token, injector duration is limited by the energy available to hold it open.



changing stock duration in the digital domain, either by ECM code (downloader) or by asserting digital commands on the bus (VA) is limited by the energy in the on board cap and the ability of the stock system to charge it. changing duration in the analog domain by directly controlling the 90v signal frees the box from the limitations of the on board supply, and allows the box to extend duration beyond what can be acheived by digital efforts. The presence of the high voltage injector harness is evidence that whatever drives the wires in that harness is capable of asserting 90v. The way I see it, the fact that the TST and Edge boxes have injector harnesses means a lot. it means they are taking over direct control of the analog 90v signal that actually opens the injector, not just changing or modifying the digital commands or 12v signals that assert (but may not acheive) duration at the ECM level.



I haven't spoken to any designers. I've just seen the high level circuit diagram (no I don't have it) and applied emperical reasoning. you can say that it doesn't take much to open the injector and that is probably correct, thats relative. the fact is that the injector solenoid has to be fired multiple times by the 12v system when the injector is not being used, in order to build up enough energy reserve in the firing cap to open the injector when it is time to do so. The whole system is rather clever, really, making use of inductive kick to generate 90v out of 12v. Its all very carfully tuned.

 

[realsquash]

DLeno,



Your argument just isn't sound. The VA box doesn't do any magical "digital" things with the computer. It functions as the TST does, but instead of plugging into the injectors individually it does so at the ECM connector.



And the ECM *does* control the fuel pressure with an Edge EZ type box. The EZ doesn't run the pump, the ECM does based on the lies that the EZ tell it.



About the 12 volt/90 volt discussion, I don't know what the ECM puts out to the injectors but either way it doesn't mean the ECM can't lengthen duration as high as the TST goes.



I believe that the 03/04 has 2 injection events and the 04. 5+ adds post-injection for a total of 3.



Andy

 

[DLeno]

The whole thing is best understood with a clear distinction between the 12v "digital" system and the 90v 'analog' system. Basically, what happens is that the ECM asserts 12v duration signals but what actually fires the injector is the energy from a 90v discharge capacitor. There are two such caps, one for each of two "banks" of injectors. While an injector from bank 1 is being fired by cap 1, cap 2 in bank 2 is being charged in preparation to fire the next injector in the order.



once you see that energy stored in the discharge cap represents the physical limit of how long the injector can stay open things become clearer. The ECM, or any box connecting directly to the ECM, can assert an injector open command by asserting the 12v line, but the maximum length of time the injector can actually stay open is determined by the number of joules of energy stored in the (90v) cap.



The 12v duration signal is "digital" in nature because it is pulsed directly by the ECM via some line driver of course. This signal can either be changed by the use of different code (an ECM flash or downloader), or it can be changed by an outboard box such as the VA. This is why I consider the VA box to be "digital duration", as I have described in my fueling box summaries.



The 90v side is analog because it is derived from the 12v digital signal using analog properties such as inductance and capacitance to step up the voltage.



you missed my point about the ECM controlling pressure, and the whole concept of commands versus physical capability. In TDR issue #45 and #47 you will see my fueling box articles which discuss pressure fooling and contain very clear explanations of same.



No one ever said that an EZ box runs the CP3 directly; I have no idea where that came from. My point is that the ECM may command a certain rail pressure but that doesn't mean such pressure will actually be acheived, due to the limitations of the CP3 itself and the set point of the pressure relief valve. This situation is similar (in a way) to the injector duration commands asserted by the ECM or by the VA box. you can program the ECM all you want, or override duration signals with the VA box, but you will still be limited, in actual acheivable duration, by the amount of energy in the discharge cap.



Could you be more more specific when you say that the VA box functions as the TST does? Note that the VA doesn't have its own individually fused injector control wires. Indeed, there is no reason to do so, as the on-board 90v system, on which the VA depends, is already limited. thats part of the original design. the reason TST puts those fuses in there is because an electronic failure inside the box might (otherwise) hold the injector open continuously. That would not be an issue except that TST directly controls the injector because it has its own 90v system. Indeed, it is capable of holding the injector open longer than the stock control system is because it is not subject to the same limitation.

About the 12 volt/90 volt discussion, I don't know what the ECM puts out to the injectors but either way it doesn't mean the ECM can't lengthen duration as high as the TST goes

On the contrary, it is the nature of the ECM signals to the injectors that helps clarify why the ECM cannot lengthen duration as the TST can, for this is the crux of the whole matter. An arbitrarily long duration command from the ECM would consist of a 12v signal. However, what actually fires the injector is the 90v supply under the control of that 12v signal. The limitation of the 90v signal (specifically the amount of energy in the discharge cap) is what downloaders and the VA box are subject to.