Whip antennas or FireStiks

[Archive]

After tearing down several fluorescent lights in parking garages, my twin FireStiks are ruined so I am considering replacing them with the metal whip antennas. Does anyone have any experience with these whip antennas?

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Mark Callahan

1998. 5 3500 4x4 24V 5spd, Geno's Muffler Kit, Chrome exhaust, Western Hauler Headache Rack, Chrome Rocker Panels, A-Pillar Mounted Boost and Oil Temp Gauges, No Turbo Silencer Ring (Yeah Baby!)

 

[Archive]

azcummins,

I am not entirely sure to which "exact" antennas you are referring to here, but I can offer this advice; If the firesticks have a spiraling wire running around a fiberglass rod, then this is the way to go.

The metal whip antennas (if it has a base loading coil) are quite poor in comparison, since the impedance matching coils in the bottom eat up most of your power!
With the fiberglass wire-wrap style, the RF currents are distributed across a fair distance, thereby significantly improving your radiation efficiency.

BTW, have TWO of these antennas in "twin trucker" style is not any better than ONE in my opinion, since there is a fair amount of phasing between them that must take place in order to achieve any gain, and furthermore, that gain will be directional, which for a mobile, you don't really want. Don't let anyone tell you different.

I design radios for a living (RF engineer), and am also a ham, with MANY of my own antennas. I hope I can help you out!

Ram On

Shawn

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'99 2500 ISB QC 4x4 5spd SB, Camper Special, Tow package, Intense Blue, Armourthane color matched box liner. AND I LOVE THIS TRUCK!!!

 

[Archive]

Shawn-
I am talking about the thin metal antennas. Are they still poor if they don't have a loading coil? I've heard about the problem with dual antennas so I sacrificed one of them by cutting the wrapped wire so it wouldn't act as a receiver. Right now the antennas are about 6'' above my cab, but if I opted for a shorter model that might only be 1 or 2 inches above the cab, how much would this hurt the performance of the radio?

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Mark Callahan

1998. 5 3500 4x4 24V 5spd, Geno's Muffler Kit, Chrome exhaust, Western Hauler Headache Rack, Chrome Rocker Panels, A-Pillar Mounted Boost and Oil Temp Gauges, No Turbo Silencer Ring (Yeah Baby!)

 

[Archive]

I am using a k40 mt yhat ihave modified to mount on ss plate that i mounted on my mirror arm get a 1;1 match sticks above the top of the cab about 3 ft, my wife has a wilson magnet mount on top of her dodge van, 1:1 match only trouble is low bridges or overheads. just my . 02 pennies wotth
don
99qc 4x4 loaded but not bombed (yet)

 

[Archive]

azcummins, why not use a mount that sticks out of the gap between fender and hood? Several vendors have the brackets, some in stainless.
I have a ham VHF antenna mounted that way.
It's a half-wave Larsen, and works fine. But maybe you have already drilled the roof.
KD7GZQ

 

[Archive]

adiabatic, I was told by my friendly cb dlr that no bracket is made that will fit in the gap between the fender and hood on the Dodges. Is he jerking my chain? I had one on my '94 Chevy that worked like a charm. It had a twist and turn stud so I just took the antenna off when the truck was garaged. Got any names for the fender/hood bracket? Thx, Larv

 

[Archive]

Mark, the Firesticks come in 3,4,and 5 foot lenths, you didn't say which length you had or where they were mounted. Going to a metal stye antenna will help only in that you will just break the lights and not damage the antenna. Co- phasing two antennas together is really only good for big rigs that can space the antennas 7 to 9 feet apart. They don't talk any better than one antenna they just allow you to talk around your trailer if you are driving a big rig and are pulling a box. A good quality magnet, and it's very important to stress quality, like a K-40 or better yet buy the best 11 meter antenna available a Wilson 1000 magnet. The stinger or whip on this antenna is 62 inches long so it will stick up a little, and being coil tuned with no shunt or resistor can handle power with no problems, plus the coil being just above the surface of the roof will give you the greatest distance, and distance counts. Mount it in the center of the roof for the best performance, You can use a through the glass style but I swear before god almighty that I can holler farther than they can talk. Hope this helps, Regards Pete

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99'3500,quad cab,4X4,a/t
3:54,all the right packages!

 

[Archive]

Mark, after re-reading your threads I just wanted to add that you really don't want to shorten the lengthof an antenna, if you were just listening fine but you transmit also and changing the antenna length will hurt your radio. If you only want the antenna to stick up above the cab an inch or two you won't talk very far, it would be just as easy to wave at whoever you were talking to.
Your truck and mine are the same in height and I don't hit anything except maybe a branch or two but it goes through the drivethru's just makes a little noise thats all. All store bought antennas are 1/4 wave and need to react off the metal of the vehicle to be effecient, it being the other 1/4 wave, now you have your 1/2 wave and you can talk! #ad
Regards Pete

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99'3500,quad cab,4X4,a/t
3:54,all the right packages!

 

[Archive]

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I would need to know the physical lengths of both types of antennas you are proposing... physical length of the antenna is the primary performance detail one must consider with antennas. The longer the conducting length the better (to a point..... )

Sorry guys, I hope I can clarify some antenna misconceptions:
(sorry it's long)

Remember that when dealing with antennas- they are radio frequency wave radiating devices. All frequencies have a "wavelength" - For citizens band radio, this wavelenth is roughly 11 meters long or roughly 35 feet or so. Now, for practicality purposes, it is not standard to build antennas 1 wavlength (35 feet) long or bigger. The sheer physical size gets to be too much to hold in the air!!

Without getting overly technical , antenna efficiency starts out at next to nothing (basically nothing radiated) for antennas of . 001 wavelengths long (as expected since this would be a very short antenna indeed!!) and increases very rapidly as antenna length is increased TO A POINT at roughly . 25 wavelengths, at which is the point of diminishing returns (efficiency chart flattens out!).

So what does this techno-stuff all mean? It means that as you DECREASE antenna size DOWN in length from the . 25 wavelength magic number, your performance goes down FAST!!! It is an extremely steep curve, believe me!!

NOW... for the CB band, . 25 wavelengths is roughly 2. 76 meters, (whatever that is in feet) long. Sooo. . this would be a REALLY nice length to use... ... . but too big for many folks liking!!
What I am getting at here, is the SHORTER you make it, performance will degrade significantly. If you want to be reaching out as far as you can with every transmission, you are gonna need an antenna about 8 or 9 feet long!!!

SECONDLY... ... there is yet ANOTHER performance robber at work. As we make antennas shorter, their feedpoint impedance drops from the nominal 50 ohms down quite far , around 5 or 6 ohms for short antennas. In order to make your CB radio transmitter happy (since it likes to "see" a 50 ohm load), the antenna is what we called "loaded" - that is, a loading coil placed at the bottom of the antenna most often. This little coil makes your antenna look like a perfect 50 ohms to your radio, but guess where most of your transmitted power goes??? You got it, disipated as nothing but HEAT in the coil - no radiating quality to speak of!!! Only 10% of it will actually make it to the "whip" part for actual radiating!!!!!

The next little bit regards what we call "ground losses". A vertical antenna , in order to radiate efficiently, needs a ground "plane" area 360 degrees around the base of the antenna. Deviating from this golden rule will yet further reduce radiation efficiency!

I know, I know, you are all thinking, what is the point of all this, right???

This is the point- if you simply want the BEST mobile antenna system you can have, a full size quarter wave (long) vertical antenna mounted smack dab in the middle of a big flat metal are will give the best results- period. There are NO loading coils in this system, it is close to 50 ohms, and all is well... ...

Soooooo... the bottom line is, when you are looking at antenna systems, the longer the better. Mounted such that it has a 360 degree area of metal around it is better.
The more you deviate from this, the worse it will perform! And the degredation is pretty huge!!

So when buying your antennas, ask the salesman how long the antenna is in terms of wavelength, and if it's in the order of . 09 wavelengths, you can expect what you get - terrible performance!
It's unfortunately just the laws of phyics at work here, and there are NO shortcuts to them, or magic tricks - no matter what any mfg may advertise! So don't believe everything you read about CB antenna advertising!!

Ok, I'm gonna shut up now before I have a convoy of Rammers kicking this geek rammer outa here #ad
I'd be happy to answer any questions privately too.
at lightfol@cadvision.com.

Oh yeah, and if you get a ham license, you will NEVER go back to CB ... ... . !!!

Shawn
VE6PV



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'99 2500 ISB QC 4x4 5spd SB, Camper Special, Tow package, Intense Blue, Armourthane color matched box liner. AND I LOVE THIS TRUCK!!!

 

[Archive]

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I would need to know the physical lengths of both types of antennas you are proposing... physical length of the antenna is the primary performance detail one must consider with antennas. The longer the conducting length the better (to a point..... )

Sorry guys, I hope I can clarify some antenna misconceptions:
(sorry it's long)

Remember that when dealing with antennas- they are radio frequency wave radiating devices. All frequencies have a "wavelength" - For citizens band radio, this wavelenth is roughly 11 meters long or roughly 35 feet or so. Now, for practicality purposes, it is not standard to build antennas 1 wavlength (35 feet) long or bigger. The sheer physical size gets to be too much to hold in the air!!

Without getting overly technical , antenna efficiency starts out at next to nothing (basically nothing radiated) for antennas of . 001 wavelengths long (as expected since this would be a very short antenna indeed!!) and increases very rapidly as antenna length is increased TO A POINT at roughly . 25 wavelengths, at which is the point of diminishing returns (efficiency chart flattens out!).

So what does this techno-stuff all mean? It means that as you DECREASE antenna size DOWN in length from the . 25 wavelength magic number, your performance goes down FAST!!! It is an extremely steep curve, believe me!!

NOW... for the CB band, . 25 wavelengths is roughly 2. 76 meters, (whatever that is in feet) long. Sooo. . this would be a REALLY nice length to use... ... . but too big for many folks liking!!
What I am getting at here, is the SHORTER you make it, performance will degrade significantly. If you want to be reaching out as far as you can with every transmission, you are gonna need an antenna about 8 or 9 feet long!!!

SECONDLY... ... there is yet ANOTHER performance robber at work. As we make antennas shorter, their feedpoint impedance drops from the nominal 50 ohms down quite far , around 5 or 6 ohms for short antennas. In order to make your CB radio transmitter happy (since it likes to "see" a 50 ohm load), the antenna is what we called "loaded" - that is, a loading coil placed at the bottom of the antenna most often. This little coil makes your antenna look like a perfect 50 ohms to your radio, but guess where most of your transmitted power goes??? You got it, disipated as nothing but HEAT in the coil - no radiating quality to speak of!!! Only 10% of it will actually make it to the "whip" part for actual radiating!!!!!

The next little bit regards what we call "ground losses". A vertical antenna , in order to radiate efficiently, needs a ground "plane" area 360 degrees around the base of the antenna. Deviating from this golden rule will yet further reduce radiation efficiency!

I know, I know, you are all thinking, what is the point of all this, right???

This is the point- if you simply want the BEST mobile antenna system you can have, a full size quarter wave (long) vertical antenna mounted smack dab in the middle of a big flat metal are will give the best results- period. There are NO loading coils in this system, it is close to 50 ohms, and all is well... ...

Soooooo... the bottom line is, when you are looking at antenna systems, the longer the better. Mounted such that it has a 360 degree area of metal around it is better.
The more you deviate from this, the worse it will perform! And the degredation is pretty huge!!

So when buying your antennas, ask the salesman how long the antenna is in terms of wavelength, and if it's in the order of . 09 wavelengths, you can expect what you get - terrible performance!
It's unfortunately just the laws of phyics at work here, and there are NO shortcuts to them, or magic tricks - no matter what any mfg may advertise! So don't believe everything you read about CB antenna advertising!!

Ok, I'm gonna shut up now before I have a convoy of Rammers kicking this geek rammer outa here #ad
I'd be happy to answer any questions privately too.
at lightfol@cadvision.com.

Oh yeah, and if you get a ham license, you will NEVER go back to CB ... ... . !!!

Shawn
VE6PV



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'99 2500 ISB QC 4x4 5spd SB, Camper Special, Tow package, Intense Blue, Armourthane color matched box liner. AND I LOVE THIS TRUCK!!!

 

[Archive]

Yo, Shawn. L. Turbo

Whats the best range you've gotten on your AM without the use of linears? Mobile to Mobile of course.


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98. 5 SLT 4x4 5 spd Quad-cab w/ Mopar running boards with side steps and Grant XL mounted in the ex-cubby holder.

 

[Archive]

Azcummins: I Agree with Shawn 100% The ideal mobile anntena for the money is a fire-stick or Ham-Stick, preferbly half-wave or 5/8 wave and used with a MFJ mobile mag mount with the fold over feature. I use this system on my truck with a 6" mag-mount and once folded over the unit extends above the cab 6 0r 7". Have a Ham help tune your antenna with an SWR analyzer for excellant cummunications.
Good Luck and take a close look at the benefits of "Ham Radio" while on the road!!
ShortPeterBuilt, N6AER, Amatuer Extra Class

1999 2500QC TSB AT, 3. 54 White/Driftwood w/most factory options. 10,000miles (truck is 3 months old - God, Country and my Dodge Diesel !!!!

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[Archive]

Aloha,
I am a ham operator Running HF Mobile (2 through 80 meters)and have ran 11mtr mobile for a long time in the past. Everything Shawn said was a great overview of the theory. Many of us have run mobile for a long time, and have tried to squeeze every watt we can playing with antennas without running a kilowatt amp. Just a few tips I can give you from my experience.

Don't believe the antenna manifactures glowing reports. They are designed to sell antennas.

Mount the antenna as high as possible in the center of the biggest mass of metal possible.

Don't use a 102" whip on your bumper 3" away from the tailgate or hood. Your 5 watts will be sucked up in the metal.

A good chasis ground is esential for the braided shield of the coaxial cable. All body parts (hood, bed, fenders) should have grounding straps to the frame. This will increase the metal mass of the groung plane and keep those items from becomming sources of re-radiated noise and static pops.

If you choose a loaded type antenna, be it a bottom, center, top, or helical wound antenna, the loading coil should be above the top of the largest mass of metal.

Example: If you are mirror mounting the antenna, A center loaded antenna with the coil above the roof line is the best choice. If you have a camper, all bets are off. Mount it higher on the camper.

If you are running a roof mount/magnet mount antenna, the best choice is a base loaded antenna.

From my experience, Helical wound antennas are a waste of money. These are the firestick, shakespere top loaded 4' fiberglass, and Francis Amazer type. The Best bang for the buck is the Wilson 1000 base loaded with or without mag mount on the roof or their Trucker series if you have the 3/8 24 therad mirror mount. They use silver plated coils in their antennas. (a complete different subject)

I used to do a lot of traveling with a President Lincoln 10 meter ham rig and a Wilson 1000 mag mount antenna stuffed in a suitcase. I would slap it on the top of my rental car and work local and DX with no problem.

Hope that helps you make it easier to select a setup that will give you the best bang for your bux... Any questions feel free to email me.

Good luck. Jim WH6FG/Mobile



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Y2K, 2500, QC, 4X4, Medium Bronze, Milemarker Hydraulic winch w/Warn Transformer mount & brush guard, Highway Products 5th wheel toolbox, Con Truck rack, Genuine Steel tube steps,
Spray-in bed liner, 2mtr ham rig (HF & Screwdriver antenna soon), Ham Radio Call WH6FG

 

[Archive]

JeRon B:,

For your basic line-of-sight path of cummincations on 27MHz, don't expect any better than about 7 or 8 miles for most conditions.
Remember too that the 27MHz frequency band is subject to ionoshperic refraction (skip as you may know it), which mean that it is possible to hear stations from a very great distance. You have no doubt been in situations where you can't hear your buddy across town, yet you can hear someone load and clear from clear across the continent! This is the ionosphere of the earth at work... ... which means that your real range COULD be across the world... ... only problem is, you can't rely on the ever changing ionosphere, and has much to do with solar activity etc etc. . won't go into that here L)

I SHOULD have mentioned in my earlier post that you CAN have GAIN with a vertical antenna, as you approace 1/2 and (better) 5/8 wave long, and even longer, except for 27MHz, this is HUGE for mobile applications.

And remember to look into those HAM radio examinations!!!!
heheh #ad


Shawn

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'99 2500 ISB QC 4x4 5spd SB, Camper Special, Tow package, Intense Blue, Armourthane color matched box liner. AND I LOVE THIS TRUCK!!!

 

[Archive]

This is a great topic. I need some opinions on what you all think is the best mag mount ant available? I've got a Radio Shack now, mounted in the middle of my roof and it is lousy. Any recomendations would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Terry

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Terry Tucker, Terre Haute, Indiana, 99 QC,LB,4X4,5SP,3. 54 LSD,4w ANTILOCK BRAKES, SCOTTY CONE SHAPED K&N, TED JANNETTY 4 IN EXHAUST, PYRO AND BOOST GUAGES, RV INJECTORS, TST PowerMax, Prime-Loc fuel filter system, Rancho 9000 5-way adjustable shocks, BriteBox, PIAA Platinum Bulbs, PIAA Driving and Fog lites, Geno's Cup Smoothie.

 

[Archive]

My truck, QUADZILLA, is equipped for full HF, UHF and VHF operation. I run an Alinco DX70 HF transceiver at 100 watts, into a DIAWA four position coax switch, leading to four Ham stick vertical antennas. By selecting one of the four positions, I normally have 10, 17, 20 and 40 meters on hand. The Alinco also has separate connection for 6M. I carry Hamstick antennas for ALL amateur radio (HAM) bands in the pickup bed. My UHF-VHF transceiver is a Yaesu FT8000R dual bander, 2M and 440mhz, running 50 watts into a Hustler colinear vertical antenna. I really enjoy being able to communicate with other HAM'S throughout the United States and the entire world! I am also involved with emergency communications for the Salvation Army and am a member of S. A. T. E. R. N. ; the Salvation Army Team Emergency Radio Network. We members assist the SA in their disaster assistance endeavors, during public emergencies, such as the Oklahoma City bombing, The last big OK city tornado, Hurricane Mitch that wreaked havoc in Honduras, belize, Guatemala etc. We are all volunteers and there are approx 1500 of us across the United states and the world. Contact me at designs@ivic.net if you want details.

At my home, I run an ICOM 756 HF transceiver into an Ameritron 600 watt amplifier, thru a Sony wattmeter, into a GAP Titan Vertical and a G5RV dipole antenna system. I also enjoy 220mhz that links up all over California.

My Wife Mary-KF6SMA and Son Aaron-KF6YPQ also enjoy HAM radio and my Son Aaron is very active on the local repeater. My best friend, ShortPeterBilt, who got me started in Amateur radio, is also very involved wtih me and my families radio hobby.

PS---Just remember to unscrew your antennas before you pull into the garage!

Sorry for the long post! 73's- Sam Porter
KF6GUW Amateur Extra Class




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1999 Dodge Laramie SLT QC,named "Quadzilla" 24V Cummins turbo diesel ISB, 2WD, auto trans, 3. 55 rear end- LSD, long bed, HD towing and camper pkg,K&N air filter, Boost and Pyro gauge combo, CD player, trip computer,electric seats, bright white paint, chrome diamond plate tool box, resonator removed, 3 1/2 in. x 24 in. Glasspack muffler, 20 in. chrome flared tip, turbo silencer ring removed, all options except leather seats, Full UHF-VHF and HF transceiver equipped (KF6GUW) "I love the smell of diesel in the morning. "
Hemet, California

 

[Archive]

Shawn, good post, with some good information in it. Just a little different perspective on it here. And I can't get technical don't have the education for it.
The average mean length for 11 meter (26. 965 to 27. 405) is 36 feet. The only natural quarter wave antenna made is the steel whip to include the spring which gives you 9 feet or 1/4 wave. The vehicle metal mass makes up the other 1/4 wave which gives you proper propagation for transmitting.
I feel the higher quality coiled antennas will give you far greater transmitting ability than the steel whip due to their ability to force the signal towards the horizon instead of in a compleat vertical circle. Top loading the antenna is only benificial if your mount is below the roof line as to put the load high enough to to tranmit correctly.
With an antenna such as the Wilson to talk 12 to 15 miles mobile to mobile and mobile to base in the 25 to 30 mile range is routine.
Lastly once the antenna length gets below
9 feet then it will have some type of coil in it to give it's electrical length. Electrically a 9 foot steel whip and a cellular type through the glass both are the same length.
Just remember: If you ain't CB'in you ain't Talk'in!! #ad
#ad
#ad
Regards Pete

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99'3500,quad cab,4X4,a/t
3:54,all the right packages!

 

[Archive]

Pete,
Did I understand you correctly, you think the Wilson is one of the best antennas? And, would that be the Wilson 1000? I'm looking for the best mag mount antenna I can find.
Thanks, Terry #ad
#ad
#ad
#ad


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Terry Tucker, Terre Haute, Indiana, 99 QC,LB,4X4,5SP,3. 54 LSD,4w ANTILOCK BRAKES, SCOTTY CONE SHAPED K&N, TED JANNETTY 4 IN EXHAUST, PYRO AND BOOST GUAGES, RV INJECTORS, TST PowerMax, Prime-Loc fuel filter system, Rancho 9000 5-way adjustable shocks, BriteBox, PIAA Platinum Bulbs, PIAA Driving and Fog lites, Geno's Cup Smoothie, Mag-Hytec Diff Cover, BD Exhaust Brake.

 

[Archive]

I would suggest you go for the Wilson 1000 mag mount. I own 3 of them. They work great in CB and the 10 meter ham band.
I would also like to let you know that the FCC has announced that the Amateur radio service will as of 4/16/00, channge the amateur licensing from 6 licenses to 3 and drop the 13 and 20 word per minute code tests. The 3 remaining licenses will be Technician, Written and no code test. General, aditional written test and 5 word per minute code test and Extra, aditionl written test. You can find out more at
http://www.arrl.org

Here is a source for a set of the current written test question pool and a downloadable morse code tutor program.
http://AH0A. ORG/AH0A.html

Check it out. Ham radio is one of the best safety devices you can have in your truck. You can almost always reach someone somewhere. It is only going to get more noisy on citizens band with the upswing in the sunspots cycle that really affect what you can do with 5 watts.

Aloha, Jim

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Y2K, 2500, SLT, QC, 4X4, Medium Bronze, Milemarker Hydraulic winch w/Warn Transformer mount & brush guard, Highway Products 5th wheel toolbox, Con Truck rack, Genuine Steel tube steps,
Spray-in bed liner, 2mtr ham rig (HF & Screwdriver antenna soon), Ham Radio Call WH6FG

 

[Archive]

TerryTT, Pilgram's got it right. The wilson 1000 is about as good as money buys. Wilson has a newer 5000 but I don't see any performance difference with it. I've ran 1000's on my low output vehicles for years and this May went to the 5000 because I had too many customers asking me what the difference between the two was. The magnet is strong (120lbs of vertical pull to remove) so they stay in place pretty good. Regards Pete

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99'3500,quad cab,4X4,a/t
3:54,all the right packages!