Who is incorrect..The Ford dealer or me? (sorry long)

[jgillott]

I need some help to clarify an issue in my mind. I need to know if I am loosing what little mental capacity that I have, or is this Ford dealer flat out lying to my boss. I don't intend this to be a Ford bashing session, so please don't turn this into one. I am having trouble specifically with a certain dealers story to my boss.



A week or so ago, my boss asked me what I thought about a Ford F-250 6. 0 L PSD 4x4 that he had looked at over the weekend. The truck is a "never titled" 2003 with approximately 1000 miles on the clock. It was being listed at ~$29,000. Immediately I was a little concerned that a never titled truck would be listed so low, and why would a somewhat popular vehicle be left over for 6 or more months. I went on to explain to him that some of the early 6. 0L PSD's had some major issues that resulted in buy backs or non delivery of some of these trucks. I was concerned that this truck could possibly fit into that category. I remember reading extensively about the issues over at thedieselstop.com when my FD was looking into a new squad truck. We ended up not buying a 6. 0L because of the rumors we had been hearing.



To add to my confusion, a friend of mine from the FD (who actually was the one who finally convinced us to stay away from the 6. 0L) had a catastrophic failure with his F-350. If I recall, he had a #6 injector stick open and lead to a complete failure of the engine. I believe that he ended up settling for cash and is now currently driving a Silverado HD.



Now the dealer that my friend bought his F-350 from is one of the dealers that my boss has visited in his vehicle search. He must have been there yesterday and told the salesman and the manager the information that I had given them. Both of them apparently went on and on with stories of how they "hadn't heard of a single issue with the 6. 0L". And to top it off, they walked him over to the service manager who gave the same line to my boss. The final kicker to me is that they told him that "I was just trying to scare him into buying a Cummins Dodge" and that "they have heard this story from other Dodge owners before and its just to make them feel better about their inferior Dodges". They went on to tell him the famous "Ford owns Cummins... . and the 6. 0 L is such a better engine that they go out and get it for their trucks". I would really like to go back down there with him and bring the paperwork with me from my friend's buy back through their dealer. I wonder how they would explain that?



Now I'm here looking like a complete fool in my boss's eyes. I'm not trying to save face, but I would like to clarify the issue in my own mind. I have read many posts over at thedieselstop.com dealing with the 6. 0. Did I totally misunderstand the information? Were there really no issues with the PSD in 2003? Should I go back to my boss and tell him I was totally wrong and go ahead with the 2003? I really hate to see him get stuck, but the credibility of my argument keeps decreasing with every story the dealer gives him.



Thanks for letting me vent



Justin

 

[Casey Ray]

Give your boss the Ford website to check out or print out some of the threads regarding the 6. 0, also if you can get a copy of the buy back, let him have copies of that as well. Go to the Cummins web site (Ford owns Cummins myth - Busted) print out this page, it'll prove salesmen were lying to him. Basically give your boss enough info, he can then make up his mind. If he goes with the 2003 and it is a lemon, well you tried, but I believe once he sees all of the above he can make an informed decision and buy elsewhere. I wouldn't buy from someone if I found out they were lying to me from the get go.



Good luck, sometimes passing on a too good to be true deal is the right thing to do.



Casey

 

[Gonzo 1066]

Kind of depends on how much you like your boss. If he is set on the 6. 0 just let him buy it and you can give us reports on how it does. I would assume the actual percentage of 6. 0s that have had engine failures is quite low. I know for a fact there has been many issues with the early release engines that heve been addressed.

 

[jgillott]

There lies the problem. I do really like this guy. I've only worked for him about a year now, but he has been absolutely great to work for. I think that he came to me for advice really because he just wasn't too familiar with diesels in general. I can't make up his mind for him, but I certainly wanted to tell him the truth, even if it wasn't what he wanted to hear.



Thanks for your thoughts so far.....

 

[truckstom]

I had a member of this board call me today, he's got a fleet of Fords at work. He was on his way to the dealership (ford) for the 3rd time with a 6. 0 diesel. None had over 10,000 miles, all were 03's... stumbling, gooey oily mess in the radiator, and so on, the same "rumors" that the guys at the diesel stop are swearing by. One of them wouldn't even get to 60 mph, with his foot planted firmly on the floor.

Hoof Hearted has a great suggestion.

 

[Big_Daddy_T]

My impression of the 6. 0 launch was that over 50% wound up with at least a reflash(runability problems in other words). I counted 60 members on thedieselstop with a replacement or buyback. Several more refused delivery. If it has 1000 on it. That means a lot of people test drove it and didnt like it. Otherwise it was sold and the guy had it for a week and returned it before a title was ready. Dealers dont title it that day. Sometimes it takes weeks. Also 29000 is probably less money than ford paid to build the truck. Something is rotten in denmark. Plus the dealer is a BIG FAT LIAR. They need to get that pos off the lot and will say anything it takes to make the sale. They probably get a bonus if they find a sucker. I hope your boss doesnt fit the bill.



Tell him to buy this truck and convert it to a Fummins. Would be cool and 29000 is a good deal for a Ford blank. You get a good truck with good running gear minus a powerplant. Hell tell em to pull the engine and sell it to someone else and youll give him 25k for the pickup.



At the very least. He could test drive several of them to get an impression of the lemon, ehhem, I mean truck. Many of the 6. 0ers said it would run fine after a reflash for a couple hundred miles then it was back to its old tricks. Dead pedal, romping, stalling, rough idle, 5 seconds to get it up to 20mph, surging and all the other fun little quirks. This of course assumes it RUNS.



My dodge dealer also lies. I guess its par for the course. Salesman and weathermen right. Would you believe I was the first one who had a lift pump go out that they could remember. I didnt believe it either.



One of my dads friends works for chevy. He told my dad their was a 40ft trailer behind the dealer with heads in it for the dmax. Dont know what he would gain from lying. So I guess you get it all the way around. Doesnt matter who you give your money to. They all lie.

 

[Big_Daddy_T]

I was told by a mechanic friend that his company on the north slope bought 3. All three were down before 500 miles. Some of the big companies had to cancel their orders. He claimed several other companies faired the same. All needed major repairs before 1000 miles. He has been a diesel mechanic for over 20 years and said he had never seen anything the like. This was the 03s. The 04s are light years better but still quirky. The 04s will fall within their 5% acceptable failure rate so Ford will never fix em up proper. They have had it so good for so long they figure they can do whatever they want and the customer will be back.



I have seen an exodus on the dieselstop of PSDers buying cummins. Like rats on a sinking ship. Then again there are people on their third and still having problems and you know they are gonna get a fourth. The definition of crazy is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result every time. I bought a dodge for two reasons. My last brand new ford went through to many seals and ford discontinued their inline 6. It was an easy choice from there. Im not a big fan of dodge but both my trucks have been good to decent.

 

[bighammer]

I'd just tell the boss man he's an idiot for believing a man who sells cars over a faithful, hardworking employee. The salesman is just doing his job

 

[DPelletier]

My Ford salesman was man enough to admit the problems of the early release 6. 0 PSD's. He also claimed that Ford has addressed most of those problems and I believe him that most of the issues have been bandaged up. I also told him that although I value his service, I won't be buying a Ford with a 6. 0 PSD. Told him to call me when they finally go common rail and ditch the HEUI injectors.

Ultimately your Boss will have to make up his own mind, but even the Ford guys like the Cummins better (according to the poll on the Dieselstop). They belittle the rest of our trucks, but for the most part know better than to question the Cummins. Anyone who believes that the PSD is a better engine than a Cummins is "less than enlightened" to say the least!



Dave

 

[stevenknapp]

My ford dealer/salesperson did the same as Dave's.



Yup, the early trucks were bad. They had many buybacks. Many loyal unhappy customers. The '04s are fixed he said, and the customers are happy.



There are more changes between '03 and '04 than a simple reflash.

 

[boonsur]

The Fords have been a crap-shoot (enough research on the Ford pages should make that clear), but you shouldn't need to argue that. There are still a lot of reasons why the Cummins is a better/more reliable engine. If it's purpose is to make money, then an inline-6 is the way to go (MUCH beefier components, ease of service, longevity, etc. ). To save potential egg on your face, I'd avoid recommending Dodge's auto transmissions though (IMHO, of course).



Hopefully logic will win over.

 

[2broke2smoke]

here ya go jgillott

link didn't work sorry



goto 2nd page of headlines on the main tdr page



you'll find the article from the detroit free press regarding the problems ford had with the 6. 0





it infuriates me when salesmen lie ... especially when they imply that i am incorrect

 

[fkovalski]

Here's the link that 2B2S is refering: Detroit Free Press

 

[lgibson]

Run the vin through carfax and see if anything comes up.

 

[SEmerson]

I find it best to let freinds buy the other trucks. If thay buy a cummins and have any problems thay just throw it back at you. Then you have to deal with helping them out. But if thay buy brand f or c and have problem thay won't even want to tell you. Plus thay will be easieer to out pull and out run keeping you king of the hill. And if thay tell you of a problem just smile and enjoy the story.

 

[GFrance]

Why are some brand loyal when they have had nothing but bad luck & keep buying the same brand.

It's like someone that just got out of an abuseive relationship & jumps right back into another. Some people are just gluttins for punishment.

You could print this thread out & give it to your boss.

 

[jgillott]

Ok everyone..... here is the update from work today.



I talked to Tom at lunch and he is leaning away from the 2003 Ford in question. I think that he realizes that there could be a little dark history on that unit, and would rather not spend that kind of money if there is any question. He has decided that he would rather "look around" a little more and see exactly what he wants. Now he hasn't necessarily ruled out a new Ford completely, but I believe that he is planning to at least take a test drive in a diesel from Dodge and Chevrolet.



My concern has never been that he necessarily buys a Cummins. I just didn't want a dealer to talk him into something that may not be a wise decision, especially since he asked for my opinion. Like you all said, I can only offer the information to him..... I can't make up his mind for him.



Thanks again everyone



Justin



P. S. I will be showing him this thread.

 

[ToolManTimTaylor]

Originally posted by jgillott

They went on to tell him the famous "Ford owns Cummins... . and the 6. 0 L is such a better engine that they go out and get it for their trucks".

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[jgillott]

Thanks TMTT... . I sent him that link this morning.



Tom is literally around 6'4" and probably around 275#. I think that he is going to be doing a little :-{} with the salesman that fed him that line of BS. There should be a little :{ :{ :{ at that dealer when he is through.

 

[stevenknapp]

I think it's sane to suggest that he look closely at any used low mile '03. That, IMHO just seems like too likley a buyback or lemon.



Wish him the best.