Why I don't want a 3rd Gen....

[Rman]

An example I like to cite is the distributorless ignition system on many modern gassers vs. "old style" distributors with vacuum/mechanical advance. Can anyone argue that DIS is not better? Similarly, can anyone argue that a jerk pump is less complicated than a common rail pump? I don't think so.



Much like computers, I think electronics sometimes scare people who are only accustomed to seeing purely mechanical systems.

I meant electronics on the 2nd gen vs. the 3rd gen... I've been an electronics tech/software engineer for 10 yrs now and am fully aware of it's capabilities and limitations as well. Mechanical is functional, but it is not always better nor more reliable. Solid state electronics revolutionized industry whether some people are going to exept that fact and press on is another topic.

 

[EBottema]

Another pro to the first/second gen w/12v engine... . If the **** ever hits the fan, and in a case of nuclear fallout when electronics fail to function, this truck will continue to run without a problem... all 24v and 3rd gens will be parked... .

 

[rbattelle]

Erik's posts on this particular thread disgust me and I hope a moderator deletes this entire thread. It can only get uglier from here.

 

[Rman]

most hitches are NOT welded on... they make bolt up hitches for their strength and ease of installation. From what I've read they are more difficult on the hydro frames because of location of the bolts, more of a design flaw not a frame problem. Hydro frames are better and stronger... period.



In fact here we go... your first post said



Its a diesel that sounds like a gas motor... yuk!

Way too many electronics for your own good...

Complication = shorter life span = higher future mateniance costs

Thin sheet metal

Poor gas mileage becuase of all the extra junk on the engine

More trim pieces and little nick nacks to break and wear out, as we all know Dodge stuff isn't too high on the quality scale for their products

Hydroformed frame that can't be welded on (Hmm whats the point of that)



Well quieting down the engine has been a gripe from many a customer... a good idea IMO. I like my 2nd gen sound, but it does get obnoxious at times.



Electronics for your own good? It's actually a relatively simple computer with a relatively small amount of data flow, simple to find the problems compared to the stuff I work on.



Complication? Dude go back to point driven distributor systems then, non steel belted tires, or better yet get your horse buggy out and fire up the ole stallion.



Poor gas mileage? huh? from what i've read the 3rd gens rival the 2nd gens and beat the 12v's... . elaborate on this for me.



Thin sheet metal... come check on the dents on my 2 year old 2nd gen, trust me it doesn't get much thinner.



The other stuff... c'mon man, if you're that nit picky then go buy a toyota or nissan "HD" truck.



I think your post is way out of line and I'm not even a 3rd gen owner. I don't like the new trucks myself, but I will admit they're better then mine is. Improvements are the way things have always been and always will be. They've addressed the big problems, the brake have come A LONG way from 10 years ago, and the steering is better as well.



The whining about electronics thing really kills me, lets all go out and pick up a hand cranked stanley steamer and just live with it then.

 

[lmills]

Well are you sure your getting 25mpg? That sounds a little much. Sounds like something my friend told me in high school about his El Camino, ooohh it had 600 horsepower... . But it all came without proof

I don't doubt the fuel mileage too much any more. Some peoples trucks do really well others do poorly. I personally got a best of 19 mpg with my 3500 dually QC 4x4 this past monday while traveling back from Connecticut. That was running an average of 75 mph with 4. 10 gears. My buddy was driving a 12 valve following me. He averaged 20 mpg with 3. 73's in a 2500 4x4. So to say they don't do as well on fuel is not always right. It is just the same ole story when it comes to MPG stories. Some do good others don't regardless of whether it is a 12 valve, 2nd gen 24 valve or the new 3rd gen.

 

[EBottema]

Erik's posts on this particular thread disgust me and I hope a moderator deletes this entire thread. It can only get uglier from here.

Censorship is wrong first of all. Second, I intended to have a debate but childish people like yourself have ruined it. I'm sorry you cannot maturely make a comment about what I said without being rude or immature. From now on, I hope that everyone can make a worth while comment and keep the flaming to a minimum which is what I intended... .

 

[Rman]

Another pro to the first/second gen w/12v engine... . If the **** ever hits the fan, and in a case of nuclear fallout when electronics fail to function, this truck will continue to run without a problem... all 24v and 3rd gens will be parked... .

How the hell does fallout make electronics not work? If you mean the EMP after detonation, if you really think having a truck that's going to work after you just witnessed a nuclear explosion then you might want to seek medical help.



Better yet, spend the 100 grand or so and harden your truck to withstand an EMP. Money worth investing the way you paint the picture.

 

[EBottema]

most hitches are NOT welded on... they make bolt up hitches for their strength and ease of installation. From what I've read they are more difficult on the hydro frames because of location of the bolts, more of a design flaw not a frame problem. Hydro frames are better and stronger... period.



In fact here we go... your first post said



Its a diesel that sounds like a gas motor... yuk!

Way too many electronics for your own good...

Complication = shorter life span = higher future mateniance costs

Thin sheet metal

Poor gas mileage becuase of all the extra junk on the engine

More trim pieces and little nick nacks to break and wear out, as we all know Dodge stuff isn't too high on the quality scale for their products

Hydroformed frame that can't be welded on (Hmm whats the point of that)



Well quieting down the engine has been a gripe from many a customer... a good idea IMO. I like my 2nd gen sound, but it does get obnoxious at times.



Electronics for your own good? It's actually a relatively simple computer with a relatively small amount of data flow, simple to find the problems compared to the stuff I work on.



Complication? Dude go back to point driven distributor systems then, non steel belted tires, or better yet get your horse buggy out and fire up the ole stallion.



Poor gas mileage? huh? from what i've read the 3rd gens rival the 2nd gens and beat the 12v's... . elaborate on this for me.



Thin sheet metal... come check on the dents on my 2 year old 2nd gen, trust me it doesn't get much thinner.



The other stuff... c'mon man, if you're that nit picky then go buy a toyota or nissan "HD" truck.



I think your post is way out of line and I'm not even a 3rd gen owner. I don't like the new trucks myself, but I will admit they're better then mine is. Improvements are the way things have always been and always will be. They've addressed the big problems, the brake have come A LONG way from 10 years ago, and the steering is better as well.



The whining about electronics thing really kills me, lets all go out and pick up a hand cranked stanley steamer and just live with it then.

Some hitches are weld on and some are bolt on. How are hydroform frames better, in the future, they cannot be repaired... . If you don't enjoy the real diesel sound, then maybe you should have gotten a gasser. With this new 600 engine, there is much more information stored on the computer. More complication makes the truck more difficult to work on, I'd like to see some rats get into the engine compartment. Fixing all this would be fun. :-laf What kind of comment is go back to your horse and buggy? I was talking about going back to the second gen trucks... Please read my post next time. Read the mileage thread on the new 600 engines and get back to me. Sheet metal is thinner on the 2rd gen, slightly but still thinner... And why would I want a nissan or a toyota, making comments like makes you sound like your just talking to talk.



The only improvement made on the new truck was the quad cab for families and the plush interior..... Everything else is for debate... Some small improvements like bed strength and such... .

 

[Rman]

well this has gotten as fun as the political forum.

 

[JHardwick]

First, don't you think many of our trucks get hitches installed on them? Many peopld like welding them on, correct? I guess I could say people that make uneducated replies like this look like idiots?

I think you should get your facts straight. Where are you getting the information that these frames can't or shouldn't be welded on?



Cite me specifics and I'll believe you, otherwise you are the uneducated one. I've read just the opposite.

 

[todt061458]

EBOTTEMA your quest for a debate about 2nd gen vs 3rd gen is a noble but wasted effort it seems as if this turned into a contest about defending a choice rather than the debate you intended. I think this will end up just causing hard feeling between tdr members so I must ask what's the point? If you want to really know about a spacific problem with a 3rd gen ask I am sure someone will tell you what you want to know. I must ask why the personal attack on EBOTTEMA If he offends you just ignore the post that would say more and send the message that no one cares to debate this subject. The personal attack just goes to show how thin skined some people are and mabe they are not that happy with their purchase? Please remember 1. we are both DODGE owners and we all own a cummins not a light duty V8 diesel (ford ,chevy) 2. If your choice of a 3rd gen truck was a good choice debate the man don't bash the man. my choice is a 2nd gen a good choice for me but not for all good luck with with your 3rd gen fuel systems and I hope the 2007 and 2010 epa changes don't ruin a good engine thanks for letting spout off. I will know return to the 2nd Gen forums where I belong!

 

[DPelletier]

EBOTTEMA your quest for a debate about 2nd gen vs 3rd gen is a noble but wasted effort it seems as if this turned into a contest about defending a choice rather than the debate you intended. I think this will end up just causing hard feeling between tdr members so I must ask what's the point? If you want to really know about a spacific problem with a 3rd gen ask I am sure someone will tell you what you want to know. I must ask why the personal attack on EBOTTEMA If he offends you just ignore the post that would say more and send the message that no one cares to debate this subject. The personal attack just goes to show how thin skined some people are and mabe they are not that happy with their purchase? Please remember 1. we are both DODGE owners and we all own a cummins not a light duty V8 diesel (ford ,chevy) 2. If your choice of a 3rd gen truck was a good choice debate the man don't bash the man. my choice is a 2nd gen a good choice for me but not for all good luck with with your 3rd gen fuel systems and I hope the 2007 and 2010 epa changes don't ruin a good engine thanks for letting spout off. I will know return to the 2nd Gen forums where I belong!

If Erik truly wanted to debate the pro's and con's of the 3rd gen trucks, he ought to have worded his post differently and avoided the little :-laf at the end. I'm sure if he had the chance he might think of a less antagonistic first post. BUT he didn't ask for a debate discussing the pro's and con's, he said (for all intents) 3rd gens suck and here's why. A little naive not to expect this result IMO.

Anyway, like I said in my first reply, the whole 2nd vs. 3rd gen "discussion" has been done at length several times. If you truly want to rehash it all, its all there for the searching.



Oh, and FWIW I've had both and I'm not going back. Doesn't mean I think the 2nd gen trucks are no good either, but after weighing the pros AND the cons, I'm happy with my decision.



Dave

 

[pwerwagn]

Friendly debating:

3rd gen cons (my opinion)

I too was under the impression that 3rd gen frames cant be welded on.

I was also under the impression that the 600's dont get good mileage. There are 5 cummins in my family(4 2nd gens and a 3rd), and none do as good as my 12V. Again, just my impression/observations.

Personally, I dont like the looks of the 3rd gen, including the dash.

I dont feel that the new quad cab is still anything more than the old. A little bigger, but still a joke.

I disagree with dodge changing from Dana, but AAM makes good stuff too.

I like the diesel sound.

Somebody mentioned "i can get 450hp with 2 boxes". So you can add 125hp for like 800$? I can add ~160hp to my 12V for like 250$. granted, you are still higher in power, but you can get pretty close to 450hp in a 12V for $800. I also havent heard of a single turbo 24V hit 800hp on #2 only. A 12V has.

I believe back in the day (possibly the 47rh days?) you could get a jacobs exhaust brake on a auto. not anymore. I know my grandpa has one on his 96 that the factory put on and still warrantied the trans.



3rd gen pros: (my opinion)

better gas engine (hemi vs. 5. 9 mag)

slightly better auto (I wouldnt have an auto anyways)

A little more room than my quad cab

3500 single wheel

ability to turn power down (but that applies to 2nd gen 24v'ers also)

you cant argue with 600ft/lbs, stock.

the back doors open independently



my opinions.

 

[gsbrockman]

Poor gas mileage becuase of all the extra junk on the engine



Give me a 2nd gen anyday over that.....



Erik :-laf

Anyway, my CTD runs on diesel... never witnessed a CTD run long enough on 87 or 92 octane to check fuel economy. :-laf

I've owned a 2nd Gen 12V, a 2nd Gen 24V, and now a 3rd Gen... . they keep getting better & better !

Given your post count and membership term, I'd say you have a little too much free time on your hands. Use spell checker and support your posts next time in a better, more well constructed manner. (ie extra junk)

Post something educational & constructive next time and stop wasting bandwidth. Geeeesh... ...

Greg



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Edited out personal insult.



Robin

TDR Admin

10/08/04

 

[lmills]

Somebody mentioned "i can get 450hp with 2 boxes". So you can add 125hp for like 800$? I can add ~160hp to my 12V for like 250$. granted, you are still higher in power, but you can get pretty close to 450hp in a 12V for $800. I also havent heard of a single turbo 24V hit 800hp on #2 only. A 12V has.

Actually the person that mentioned it was me. And no you are wrong. My truck dynoed 236 stock. So I have an increase of almost 235 Hp at the tires"with just two boxes. " Just how many 12 valves are currently making 800 HP on a single charger? I am not denying there aren't plenty of high HP 12 valve trucks out there, but like it or not the truth is the truth. The common rail has hardly been tapped yet and is catching up quickly. Compare apples to apples and you won't find too many 12 valves making close to 500 HP with less than $1,000 invested. Like you said, you might come close, but I doubt it. Maybe with second hand parts.

 

[caleb c.]

I have a first gen that I love. My dad has a 3rd I really like alot too. Every body just wants what they have to be better than the next guy. I havent seen a whole lot of ctd trucks between 1989 to 2004 that I didnt like. They are all good trucks. It would be different to talk smack about a ford or something,but it's kinda stupid to go to a3rd gen forum and say how much you dislike em'. I think they are great trucks. Now,can we all get along?

 

[TCDiesel]

When it"s -25 outside ,I push a button and my 3GEN starts without being plug in,Now after it runs a few minutes I push another button it ramps up to 1200 rpm"s or whatever I set it, When I leave my front door It"s warm up ready to go to work and make me some money. Now the 12v, when the sun goes down it don"t want to start. Don"t even think about letting the 12v run in your garage,Only if you want your House to smell like Diesel fuel. Greater HP more TQ less emissions more room,ease of operation just to mention a few, WHAT"S NOT TO LIKE. Owning a truck is like leaving were you grew up,No matter were you go you still have roots back home. So I see why you like the 12v/ 24v It were you grew up. So give the new generation a chance,You may be surprised.

 

[DPelletier]

OK I give up. Here's my comparison to the ultimate 2nd gen (IMO a 2001. 5 or 2002 HO 6 spd - stock)



3rd gen Pro's

- more power

- better auto transmission

- better brakes

- better steering

- stiffer and stronger frame

- higher GVWR

- better QC and interior

- No VP-44

- less noise



3rd Gen Cons

- 17" tires are harder to find (getting more all the time, though)

- AAM axles (I would have preferred the Dana's)

- HY35's (would rather have the HX-35)





Other points

- I'm not going to debate which body style looks better as its purely subjective

- The sheet metal is just as thin on the 2nd gen as the 3rd

- my '03 gets 2 mpg better on average than my '01. 5 did. Remember this is a 2nd gen vs. 3rd gen comparison not a 12V vs. 600 comparison.

- 24V has lots of electronic components too.

- make up your mind; are you arguing 12V vs. 24V and HPCR or 2nd gen vs. 3rd gen.



Cheers

Dave

 

[Billy Golightly]

EBottema your first post did indeed say you can't weld on a 3rd gen frame, let me quote for clarification.

Hydroformed frame that can't be welded on (Hmm whats the point of that)

For those of you doubting, checkout my gallery. Specificly, Look at these two pictures.



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/displayimage.php?&photoid=15317&width=4



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/displayimage.php?&photoid=15318&width=4



I just went out and took these, because it kind of irritates me when someone says that it can't be done, when I know it can

 

[FDavid]

EBottema ,



You remind me of a little kid. Do you own a 3rd gen truck to know all there faults? Didnt think so. Now lets see I happen to own a 97 and an 03. About the only thing better on the 12 valver is the seats.

Problems with the 03 to date? Hmmm, None Now the 97: Rebuilt p-pump, 2 transmissions ,melted head light switch, horrible brakes, crappy steering and a bunch of other little ***** i don't care to remember.





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Deleted graphic.



Robin

TDR Admin

10/08/04