Why is ford's GVWR so much higher?

[Tim]

You're still not getting it. Your seat of pants feeling as to which truck towed better has nothing to do with what should be a safe or legal rating for your vehicle. That is nothing but opinion and has no basis in fact. This thread is about safe vehicle tow ratings.



How much the rear swayed or squatted is still not fact pertaining to this discussion. Springs are supposed to deflect with weight applied to them. Shocks are suppose to control sway. Some trucks even have anti-sway bars to further help the cause. These items all factor in to what the factory assigns as a safe weight to carry or tow.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"I do not think it is an irrelavant point unless you choose to treat the ratings as the actual limits, which I do not believe is accurate. "





That's all well and good - UNTIL you find yourself in the situation, as a few here have, where you need to convince the Hiway Patrol, insurance company, or a judge that those clearly posted and advertised specs aren't really "accurate" - and can be ignored with impunity...

 

[Tim]

I've never seen a reported case of someone getting a ticket for exceeding factory vehicle ratings. In Illinois you can only bet ticketed if you're over the weight for which your vehicle is plated. I have a 14,000 lb GVWR trailer that is plated for 8,000 lbs. If I exceed the 8,000 lbs. , I could get a pretty hefty ticket for every pound it is overweight even without hitting the GVWR.



Insurance companies are a different story. It would depend on how the policy is written. I'd imagine that a vehicle overloaded beyond the factory rating wouldn't be convered by any insurance policy.



Hotshotter rigs have long been overweight. I see pickups plated for 20,000 lbs and those 50' long trailers designed to carry three vehicles put even the heaviest duty dually pickup well over its tow rating, in fact, one of those trailers with even a single vehicle on it can often exceed the factory ratings for a truck. They get away with it because their license plates are sufficient for the load.



If I were a highway patrolman I'd be taking these rigs to the weigh station and citing them for unsafe equipment as if they had bald tires or something... but for years, people have got away with exceeding ratings without much hassle.



Any 3/4 ton SRW vehicle you see with a large slide in camper and even a small trailer is likely well over the GVWR for that vehicle. Most people don't even realize that a 3,000 lb camper puts you over the GVWR even before you yourself get into the vehicle.



I wouldn't be worried about the legal reprocussions if I chose to overload a vehicle. I would be worried about the civil conseqences if you get into an accident, though.



The moral of the story is just don't overload your truck. Using a vehicle outside its design limitations is never a good idea in my opinion. That is why I'm buying a 1 ton Diesel truck to pull a trailer that according to factory ratings could likely be pulled by a 3/4 ton gasoline powered pickup with 3. 73 gears.

 

[bodacious]

The f-350 I look at only had tires that were rated for 3300# each. The problem is'nt the total of all four tires but you can only put 6600# on back axal from the ford.

 

[SKargo]

SKargo, 2 sources:



1. Shade Equipment in Winchester VA, authorized upfitter for Dodge, info came from Indianopolis show last month.



2. Owner of my local dealer, verified same.



My understanding is that the chassis cab will be available in different CA [cab to axle lengths] for different service body applications.



L

I deal with Shade equipment through our dealership. I don't think anything is set in stone, but I hope you are right.

 

[Lorenz]

So basicly in two pages of replies we have stories of CHP tickets and cracked frames, and no answers?

 

[RustyJC]

Ford did a major redesign of the Super Duties for 2005. I would have been disappointed in them if they hadn't done a major frame and suspension upgrade that allowed the engineers to increase GVWRs and GCWRs (ref - tow boss package with a maximum trailer tow rating [yeah, I know it's not accurate, but it's an interesting comparison number] of 19,100 lbs). The positive aspect of this is that, just like the horsepower/torque wars, it should force Dodge to do the same thing when the Ram comes up for upgrading/redesign.



Rusty

 

[LFalconer]

Skargo, I agree - just reporting the facts as related to me by knowledgable dodge sources. Dodge would be well advised to get a chassis cab on the market to get some of the commerical business... .



L

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"So basicly in two pages of replies we have stories of CHP tickets and cracked frames, and no answers?"





UMMmmm - "answers" to WHAT?



The only "question" posed in the lead post was:



"Ok, a 3500 SRW Dodge only has a GVRW of 9900 lbs. A ford is now 11400 lbs. What is wrong with this picture?"



And THAT seems to have been pretty well covered so far... :-laf :-laf

 

[KKlingbeil]

So for the uninformed, what is a "chassis cab" ??????

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

It's just a cab on bare framerails - for buyers who intend to add aftermarket flatbeds or utility boxes in commercial use...

 

[Eric_77]

I for one picked the 9900 pound capacity Dodge because it was under the magic 10,000 number that DOT uses to determine whether you have to have log books in a commercial vehicle.



Now the new ford with tow ratings over 19,000 pounds puts them into a situation that truck would require driver to have a Class A license when towing, and keep fuel records as well as the log books required over 10k.

 

[SKargo]

Skargo, I agree - just reporting the facts as related to me by knowledgable dodge sources. Dodge would be well advised to get a chassis cab on the market to get some of the commerical business... .



L

Yes sir, we've been waiting for a true cab and chassis here. Dodge is missing the boat.



We sell mainly trucks, and have a ton of commercial customers who are always asking when we are going to offer "real" trucks.

 

[SKargo]

So for the uninformed, what is a "chassis cab" ??????

A true cab and chassis is more than a truck with the bed pulled off. They typically have straight frame rails that are more beefy in the rear, than the standard pickup with the curved rails. Hope that made sense.

 

[joemyers]

Could it have somethig to do with the Hyroformed frames on the newer Dodges.

 

[Tim]

I for one picked the 9900 pound capacity Dodge because it was under the magic 10,000 number that DOT uses to determine whether you have to have log books in a commercial vehicle.



Now the new ford with tow ratings over 19,000 pounds puts them into a situation that truck would require driver to have a Class A license when towing, and keep fuel records as well as the log books required over 10k.

That's not true. You do not need a commercial driver's license in this country to drive your personal vehicle. Motorhomes are a prime example. Even bus conversions that are not for hire do not require a special driver's license, there are exceptions for that.



License plates are often what make the difference. A truck or trailer plated for 8,000 lbs or less in Illinois requires no inspection and my license is good for 16,000 lbs single vehicle GVWR. Step up to 10k plates and inspection is necessary--but still no CDL.

 

[Grizzly]

This thread has been beaten to death and gone in circles. The bottom line is, what's YOUR preference. Do you want a truck that you know will work for you and has the best engine in the world or do you want a truck with inflated fuzzy numbers. Grizzly

 

[WOT]

Ford heavied up the frame this year on the S/D, Dodge will do same in 06. Note the 4x2 option for XBC box off application, mid year running change to correct the LWB quad cab box off frame cracking issues. Dodge is releasing a true Chassis Cab in 06 with a new frame.

Where did you hear about '06 numbers changing and the Chassis Cab?

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

... . to correct the LWB quad cab box off frame cracking issues. Dodge is releasing a true Chassis Cab in 06 with a new frame…. just reporting the facts as related to me by knowledgable dodge sources.

LFalconer has yet to provide one "factual" cracked frame. So perhaps it is more rumor than issue? Maybe he could talk to his knowledgeable dodge sources and document cracked frames. Then we would move beyond rumor mongering, tsk, tsk . Thus, far the only cracked frame provided in the last thread about this subject was from an earlier Gen CTD that I found on another thread.



As I pointed out in the last thread, C&S models for earlier CTD gens also had different frames and axle arrangements. If you are planning on putting an aftermarket body on, by all means go for the Cab&Chassis now that they are becoming available - as someone else is fond of saying "horses for courses".

 

[LFalconer]

Old Trail Dog,



I don't rumor monger - got it? I am an ex engineer approaching 50 - my integrity is a high value to me, I am reporting the facts as I found them to the benefit of this forum, no more, no less.



To the point of the frame cracking "issues" As I stated before;



1. Shade Equipment, [authorized upfitter for Dge] indicated in a conversation that Dodge would not authorized service body installation due to some frame cracks in Quad LWB trucks, with normal pickup boxes NOT INSTALLED.



Furthermore, this gentleman was at the show in Indy in March, where he met with D/C, and was told of the chassis/cab release in 06, and a mid year running change on 05 DRW 4x2 trucks for bed off applications.



2. There is an order option for Box Off XBC on 4x2 DRW, reported by Tomeygun a week or so ago.



3. My local Dodge dealer service writer and manager validated my questions on the frame cracking problem, and while they had not seen any personally - they had been notified. I asked them if there were any issues with normal pickup box use, they indicated no.



4. I also understand from this forum there is a dealer kit to provide attachment mounting brackets for existing frames, however - I can not validate this personally.



These are the facts as I have found them out.



However, I made the decision to [after having the vibe issue not resolved on my 04] to sell the truck back to the dealer, rather than take the 05. [Even though I like the Cummins better than any other diesel ] Here is why:



From an engineering view: 3 GEn dodge compared to 05 Ford Super Duty



1. The frame on the Dge is of thinner steel than the front radius arms on a Ford Super Duty. Also, look at the Ford frame, one piece end to end, the Dodge is slip welded in the middle with a 3-4 " overlap. The Ford frame is about twice the thickness, plus there are points in the frame where there is a doubler added.



2. Examine the leaf spring mounts as well, the amount of steel is less in the Dodge.



3. Consider the effect in the next 3-7 years of corrosion on the interior of the frame, where rust will occur in the bottom section, where dirt,dust and salt gather. Without consistent flushing of the frame, and treatment with marine fogging oil, there will be rust. This frame gets it's strength from the oblong shape, not the thickness of steel as a C Channel. Like an aluminum can - consider you can stand on an aluminum can if there are no dimples in it. Put a small dimple in the can, try standing on it. My view is that when rust starts corroding the bottom of these frames, folks running heavy loads may start experiencing frame failures.



So, net-net for me - I didn't want an 05 Dodge - the frame is a weak point - I feel there may be a time in the future [3-7] years where this frame issue may become prevalent, especially in the Midwest and Northeast - such that these trucks will be a little value, other than salvage for the driveline.



I voted to move away from the Dodge for this reason and others. I tow heavy with a gooseneck, go off road at times, and plan to have a diesel truck for 15 + years, expecting to turn it into a farm truck and run the wheels off of it.



I examined the frame on the 1st and 2nd Gen of Dodge as well [I owned 2nd Gen trucks] These where built to last, similar to the Ford construction, classic C channel, with doublers where needed.



Dodge used to build a great frame, but the accountants are driving the engineering team to far to cost cutting. I know how this works, being in product development for 25+ years. Clearly the German management set goals that they believed to be right, and would not listen to the engineers concerns. Having worked for a German company in the past, I could see how this would work.



So, I voted with my feet and bought an 05 Ford.



Still looking for a good 1st or 2nd gen 12v 5speed for farm use though... .



Luke



Luke