Why synthetic oil?

[illflem]

I've never seen as many people swear by syntheic motor oil as on this forum,what gives?My friends that are OTR truckers don't use it, nor do any other truckers that they know,say it's too expensive. My fuel/oil jobber sells very little,says it's not cost effective. I live in a agricultural area that is heavily diesel oriented,I don't know one person, besides here on the TDR, who uses snythetic motor oil. I pay $. 97 per qt for Delo 400 in 55 ga drums,cheapest Amsoil is $5. 65 qt. To break even you would need to go 30k on Amsoil vs. 5k on Delo. Is that what you guys are doing?I have millions of combined miles on Delo with no oil related problems and am not going to change,I just wonder why you all are so sold on snythetics?Solid data would be nice.

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95' 25004X4,AT,Driftwood,Banks,Warn fender flairs and running boards(Play truck)95 3500,5 speed,driftwood,Banks&phscotty,34,000 GCVW apple and tractor hauler(work truck)

 

[Riflesmith]

Speaking for myself, it is not about cost comparisons. My decision to use synthetic oil in my Ram is based on a desire to give a sizable investment the best protection possible. It is also about the convenience of changing filters instead of oil and filters. It is also about superior winter starts. There have been many members that have posted their oil analysis results. If you do a search you will find them.

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99,2500,ISB,QC,6sp,3. 54,4x4, turbo silencer ring removed, Scotty System, B&W Turnover Ball Gooseneck Hitch, Amsoil Bypass Oil Filter System/Amsoil 3000 Oil. ISSPRO Boost and Pyro Guages, Apprentice member of BOMB.

 

[Pete Peterson]

illflem, the big deal with synthetics is inextended oil changes. If you change your oil every 3 to 35 hundred miles then any of the good oils will show the exact wear as the synthetics do after 500 thousand miles. Understand synthetics are good in their correct invironment ie; jet airplanes. That is wear this stuff shines. A gas turbine compressor turns faster than our little turbo could dream of turning. So yes synthetic oil is superior to conventional oil but in our application it really means very little. Regards Pete

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99'3500,quad cab,4X4,a/t
3:54,all the right packages!PROPER VALVEMENT

 

[Sled Puller]

As far as Synthetics go, Amsoil is still the only one that recommends extended drains far beyond what we were raised on.

Yes, you do have to run it 30,000 to pay for itself that way. No problem, as this is MINIMAL mileage for their oils. Tests have proven this over and over again.

If you drive a lot of miles, You must consider the fuel savings that Amsoil gives you over petro oil. You may say that is minimal, but with prices today, it does not take long to pay for the oil!

Also expect a 20 degree drop in oil temp. Less heat = long life.

You can run the others and change them often, as they need it, if you wish.

But I chose to run my Amsoil 35,000 miles or 1 year, enjoy the mileage increase, the temp drop, easy starting when it drops below 40 F, no more dumping 3 gallons of oil once a month,
but most important of all,
When you guys are in for your 400,000 mile overhaul, I'll still be trucking for another 400,000!!!!
Amsoil is not a "magic" or "miracle" oil. It does what it is supposed to quite well. And has since 1972.

If a wanted to run second best, I would have bought a FORD!

Dane,
A "hot" additive package does not make up for poor basestocks.

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1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled
Member of TDR,LIC-ROC,GLTDR,NRA

 

[Dane]

If I may step up to the plate... There seems to be some belief that synthetic base is somehow inherantly better than petro base. This is not true. There are bad synthetics as well as bad petro based oil stocks. A lot of what makes any oil good is the additives package regardless of which base stock it's from. I agree with Pete 100% and would add that another place synthetic shines is in very cold conditions. I use a petro base oil (Lubrication Engineers) that is every bit as good as any synthetic. Roy at Mag Hytec recommends LE for most apps and Amsoil for cold climates. Also - My last truck got Redline. It worked fantastic in the engine, but fell very short in the rear differential. The engine showed zero wear after 165,00 hard miles but the diff started showing significant wear after 95k. So I use what works best for my application without suscribing to any "magic" oil. I do not live in a cold climate and I change it at 5k. As always, jmo...

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2001 HO 6 speed Regular Cab SLT 4x4 3. 54 anti spin 2500. Used for the daily grind and sneaking away to some secret Baja beaches toting a cabover

 

[dresslered]

Cummins, San Leandro frowned on the question of extended oil changes. They said that you can pretty much run any "quality" oil that you want in your engine as long as you change it every 6000 miles. An oil change is really not that difficult. I guess I will be rebuilding mine at 400,000.

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David Dressler
2001 Driftwood 3500 Quad Cab 4x4, 155 inch WB, 5. 9L HO Cummins Diesel (ETH), 6-Speed HD Manual (DEE), SLT+, 3. 54 Anti-Spin Axle, Camper Special Group, Trailer Tow Group, Leather, Sliding Rear Window, Jacob's E-Brake, Rhino Liner, VDO Vision (pyro, boost, engine oil temp. ), Weather Guard Diamond Plate Saddle Box, Tork Lift camper tie-downs, Mag-Hytec Differential Cover, AND functional Halo light!
Bigfoot 3000 10. 11 Slide-in Camper.

 

[DieselB59]

I've used only Rotella-T 15-40 Multigrade in my engines and I've never experienced any oil-related wear, and/or failues, and change the oil & filter (fleetguard) at 3000 miles. I have, however, seen hundreds of trucks come into and out of the shop and the ones I have to mop up the oil after are those running on the Amsoil formula with all the remote filters and bypasses and pre-lubers, etc. I have never seen in my life more oil leaks from both new engines and some as old as 250000 miles as I see from the Amsoil soaked ones. Regular petroleum formulas have anti-scuff, anti-acid and anti-soot additives that the synthetics do not. Why? They are not meant for use in Diesels. Big rigs change their oil at 30000 mile intervals for a reason, OIL CAPACITY. When using 40 or more quarts of oil, you tend not to contaminate it as quickly, allowing for the extended drain interval. The Cummins B series in the Dodge pickups have a seriously small oil pan compared to those in bulldozers and farm equipment, so we should not play with extended drain intervals with our small oil pans which are there to clear the ground and the front axle. I personally have rebuilt B series which were run on Amsoil and other synthetic formulas for extended drain intervals which were tested from time to time. The wristpins in these engines have shown a significant amount of wear that are indicative of oil-related engine wear. Overhauls of comparable engines of similar mileage run on petroleum based oils do not show any similar wear on the wristpins. Are synthetic diamonds as good as those mother nature produced over millions of years? Is synthetic oil as good as that which mother nature produced over millions of years? I think not. Do you think an oil company is ready to write a check for somewhere in the 5000-10000 dollar range to replace your engine when it stops running. They'll pay an "expert" to say it was due to something besides their oil. They only want your money.

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520 Rear Wheel H. P. and 800+ ft/lbs Torque = 15. 5 sec @ 97 mph with the rear wheels spinning in 5th gear going through the traps in the quarter mile. No slicks here, pal, no fancy auto transmission, just the truck in full street trim, 7400 lbs. of Auto Wurks Diesel/BD Performance raging, fire-breathing DIESEL POWER

 

[lschultz]

DieselIB59-This sounds like a repeat of what you posted on the other forum(24 valve)Sounds like you have a problem with Amsoil. Just your opinion. Enough said.

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[drag racer]

I second that opinion, illfem... well said. Other than arctic-like cold weather where synthetic oil will flow better at start-up, the only benefit synthetic oil provides is to the oil companies, who roll in the dough through significantly higher profit margins. The more customers that get "hooked" on it, the more they laugh their way to the bank. I have built enough engines in my day to know for myself that regular maintenance, not snake oil, is the key to longevity. The majority of OTR truckers can't be wrong... their living depends on it.

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[dresslered]

And straight from the RamMaster:

Cummins does NOT recommend extending oil change intervals beyond 6 months
or 6000 miles for 12 valve mechanical engines (7500 miles for 24 valve
engines) on B or C series engines, when synthetic oils are used. However,
the electronic, 24 valve ISB engine burns much cleaner than previous
mechanical models and Cummins operation & maintenance manual suggests
15,000 mile oil changes in other applications and Dodge has adapted 7500
mile oil changes in their Dodge Ram. The Dodge application does not use a
lube filter that would support a longer recommended drain interval.

Cummins neither approves nor disapproves of products made by other
companies, therefore does not make recommendations on any particular brand
names of oils or oil additives. Cummins does not specify or require
customers to use any certain brand of oil or other engine maintenance
products. Users should consult the appropriate Cummins Operation and
Maintenance manual for specific engine models, for maintenance
recommendations from Cummins. Cummins oil recommendations are as follows:

Cummins Engineers developed their own oil in the late 80's, which was named
Premium Blue. They also developed Premium Blue 2000, which is a
semi-synthetic (50%) oil. Valvoline now markets these oils. These oils
enable heavy-duty fleet operators to run with an extended oil drain
interval, however the Cummins B5. 9 change interval has not been extended,
due to different duty cycles. Also, Mopar oils available from your Dodge
dealer are also acceptable.

Cummins and Valvoline have been working together in the oil business for
many years and also developed a partnership in several racing activities as
well. For more information about Valvoline, they can be reached at their
website, "http://www.valvoline.com/", or by calling them at 1-800-354-9061.

Cummins recommends the use of high quality engine oils meeting Cummins
Engineering Standard (CES) 20071, 20076 or API CH-4 specification, like
Valvoline Premium Blue and Premium Blue 2000. API CG-4 or CF-4 oils are
also allowed at reduced oil drain intervals. In addition to the above
requirements, Cummins B and C series engines require lubricants meeting
category SG, SH or SJ for superior protection of the sliding followers.

For regions where oils meeting the above specifications are not readily
available, select a lubricant that meets CES 20075 for use in Cummins B and
C series engines. Choosing the proper lubricant for your application will
maximize your drain interval and extend the life of your engine. Consult
your Operations and Maintenance manual for drain interval guidelines
appropriate for your specific application and oil selection.

B and C series Cummins engines, with sliding cam tappets, require a dual
rated oil that includes SG (good) or SH (better) or SJ (best, to-date).
This is described in Cummins Service Bulletin 3810340-02 (Oils for Cummins
engines) dated May 1996, and in the B5. 9 Operation and Maintenance (O&M)
Manual, bulletin No. 3810205-12 (1/96).

Travis McMillan at Valvoline Technical Support (1-800-TEAM-VAL) confirmed
that the part-synthetic Premium Blue 2000 oil is a dual-rated oil that does
meet the "SJ" requirement for lubrication of the sliding tappets, and
therefore is suitable for use in Cummins midrange (B and C Series) engines,
including the Dodge application. Travis says he believes the most recent
Premium Blue 2000 packaging now reflects the "SJ" rating (as of October
1999). Cummins would recommend running the engine for 2 or 3 oil changes on
Premium Blue before changing to the Premium Blue 2000 (about 50%
synthetic).

Synthetic oils are recommended by Cummins at low ambient (arctic)
temperatures (-10 degF or lower), however, they can be used at other
ambient temperatures, providing the recommended oil change intervals are
not exceeded. If full synthetic oils are to be used, Cummins recommends
that the engine use mineral base oils for the first two oil change
intervals, then switch to the synthetic base oil.

For ambient temperature ranges, Cummins recommends:
15W40 oil for operation in temperatures: (+12 deg F and upward)
10W30 oil for operation in temperatures between -13 deg F and +68 deg F,
but not above
+68 deg. F
Synthetic CE/SG 5W30 oil for severe (Arctic) conditions (below -10 deg F)

Fleetguard is a subsidiary of Cummins and their LF3349 standard filter and
the premium LF3552 (microglass) filters will do an excellent job of
filtering, as well as the Mopar filters.

ISB 24 valve Chrysler Improved Oil Filter Available 27 MAY 99
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The purpose of this Thursday Toss is to inform the field of an improved oil
filter canister that has been introduced for use on all Dodge ISB powered
pickups.

Fleetguard LF3885 has been introduced and will replace the Fleetguard
LF3349 oil filter immediately on all model Dodge pickups equipped with the
ISB engine. This filter features improved construction to better withstand
the higher oil pressures seen on the ISB engine.

LF3349 can be used on all non-ISB powered Dodges until the stock is
depleted at which time the LF3885 will be used across the board on any
Dodge application.

Hope this helps. Thank you for choosing Cummins power and please let us
know if you need assistance in locating the nearest Cummins distributor or
dealer. Also let us know if you have other questions and if away from your
computer, feel free to call us toll-free at 1-800-DIESELS (343-7357).

Regards,
---
RamMaster
Cummins, Inc
Customer Assistance Center
E-mail: rammaster@cummins.com

 

[Sled Puller]

Gosh, the anti-synthetic crowd has showed up in force on this one!

I read some very good fiction a few posts above. Does anyone want me to shoot holes all through it, or should I just let it go?



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1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled
Member of TDR,LIC-ROC,GLTDR,NRA

 

[illflem]

MGM,go for it,thats what this forum's all about,no hearsay allowed though!

 

[yogibear]

Shoot, I'm expecting bulls eyes MGM.
Larry

 

[Briar Hopper]

The manufacturer's recommendations have long been a fuel source for the public's skepticism towards synthetics. In this tort-happy day and age(tort means lawsuit, for you illiterates), when nobody reads their owners manual anymore, and has no idea how an internal combustion engine works, the vehicle manufacturers prefer to err on the side of caution.
Extended oil change intervals with synthetics are possible for 2 reasons: One, the superior quality of the oil filters made by Amsoil, as well as the choice of ADDED filtration with a dual bypass setup. Two, the synthetic base stock is not subject to thermal breakdown, as is petroleum base stock. The breakdown is the main reason for frequent changes.
I have a friend who is an Amsoil dealer. With the dual bypass filter, he put over 265,000 miles on his 12 valve Cummins without changing the oil !Just the filters, along with a regular oil analysis. He traded it in for a new dually when he saw mine and got jealous. #ad
The inside of the valve covers were still clean enough to eat out of, and so was the top of the head... no leaks anywhere.
You're welcome to your skepticism, but it is a shame to fail to be open-minded enough to provide your Cummins engine with the very best that money can buy. JMO, but it's backed by many years of experience... DieselB59, those B series engines you claim to have rebuilt, did it ever occur to you that maybe those engines had the Amsoil added to them late in life, when they were already showing significant wear? Or do you want to make the slightly less believable claim that you personally knew each and every one of those engines and the habits of each person that owned them? Amsoil isn't miracle oil. It won't undo the damage caused by previous neglect. I helped my uncle rebuild the engine in his Mack truck. He's used Amsoil from the start. At over 200,000 miles, we could see no signs of wear on the bearings and other surfaces. We only rebuilt it because a valve dropped, and ate up the camshaft.
Your turn, MGM, have at it !

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2001 Cummins Dodge Ram 3500 Sport(black) 4x4 QC 5 spd. , has a bad habit of outrunning Ford Mustangs and PowerChokes while towing a 97 Skeeter ss140 17' bass boat. (water's the only place left I won't get a speeding ticket) NRA Life Member since 1989. More family values, less government and taxes.

[This message has been edited by Briar Hopper (edited 10-18-2000). ]

 

[Deezal Man]

I love this Topic... It's only a step behind religion and politics. .

Having been around AMSOIL since 1976, I'd like to think that I've accumulated a decent amount of experience in the conversion from Petroleum to Synthetics. I hate to mention the brand name. . but I also know this world has its share of poor quality products. In that I agree with Dane, not all synthetics are better, but almost always cost more.
I also don't know if AMSOIL is the best... But its the best I've used thus far.

As you would suspect... I've also heard the Petro vs. Synthetics question more times than I can remember... and let's not forget the $. 89 cents vs. $5. 99 topic!!

Well folks... After a few hundred discussions on the same topic... I've learned to not care or involve myself! Since I'm not paying for your vehicles nor what you put into them (fuel, oil) I really don't care what you use. .
If it makes you feel better to pay $. 89 cents for a quart of oil and crawl under truck every 3,000 miles... . Great!!

You are either open minded to learn about the charactoristics and performance of different lubrication medias... Or your not. And notice I didn't mention petro vs. synthetic.

All I know is that AMSOIL has saved me a few thousand dollars over the years in fuel and oil changes. . I can't imagine using. . what I used to use. But hey... that's me.

Never had leaks, or engine problems. Just compliments from the mechanic who adjusted the valves.

FWIW: My Die hard Rotella brother-in law reluctantly switched his 97' 12 valve to AMSOIL... Probably to prove his point of it being a waste of money. .
Unfortunate for him. . He picked up a mile and a half in fuel economy while doing so.
So we'll see what decides after 10K miles. .


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98. 5' 24v 2500 Auto/3. 54 4x4 SB QC. Everything but leather. PIAA 1200's, AMSOIL dual filter relocation system, Smittybuilt Stainless Steel Nerfs, Rhino Liner(Junk), K&N air filter(For Sale)15 year AMSOIL dealer. Time permitting, Soon to include Ultra-lite Pyro,0-50lbs boost, Trans temp in the pillar. Rancho 9000's with in cab adjustment.

 

[lschultz]

See what you started dieselB59.

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[Sky]

Both sides do bring up great points though. If only AMSOIL was like $3. 00/quart then there would be no question. At least for me. #ad


Sky

always confused as ever!

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2001 QuadCab,SWB,Auto, 4X4,4" Flowmaster Exhaust, Bosch 275 Injectors... ... ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
4-Sale 1994 4X4 cummins, Two tone blue and silver,Auto, all stock 105k very well looked after
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Sled Puller]

Deezal Man, thanks!

I was getting all geared up to destroy the fiction from above this weekend, but why bother?
Deezal Man said the important stuff. Do a search on this topic here, and the Ford site. It has all been said before.
I think I will send The RamMaster post to Amsoil Tech Services. Then it will be factory direct, with no hearsay.

There is always an idiot in the crowd who thinks Amsoil is stupid and will pay for broken parts that are NOT the oils fault.
But they would NEVER DREAM about calling Mobil, Pennzoil, Texaco, etc. Thats why there is oil samples taken by an INDEPENDENT LAB. Amsoil Inc. does not pay off Labs to tell people their oil is good when it isn't! Come on!
BTW, a trucking company I was talking to(350 trucks), could not afford to switch to Amsoil. Why?

Because their fleet of BRAND NEW CATS, leaked so bad, it would not be in the engine long enough to do any good.
As Diesel continues to rise, I think they will be fixing the leaks and switching!

I'll be back.



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1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled
Member of TDR,LIC-ROC,GLTDR,NRA

 

[drag racer]

MGM, You keep saying you have something meaningful to say, then say it. Show us some more of that sound logic and brutally interesting commentary you've already displayed above.

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[This message has been edited by drag racer (edited 10-19-2000). ]

 

[dresslered]

Dear MGM-

I didn’t mean to start you foaming at the mouth. I have never criticized anyone for using synthetics. I was under the impression that this was a forum in which we all could pool information gathered from various sources—apparently the Cummins credentials aren’t good enough for you. It can then be left to the individual owner to decide what is the best method for maintenance under his or her driving conditions.

I do have an “open mind” as I do run synthetics in my differential. I believe that this is an appropriate application for it. I have nearly stated that I am a believer of frequent engine oil changes using a petroleum based oil and that I did not think that I would have premature failure due to this technique. I am in no danger of ever experiencing oil breakdown! I also don’t mind doing a simple oil change nor do I care to send my oil out to be analyzed, as I have no reason to believe that there is a problem with my engine. I have never done so with any of my cars so why would I want to start with my truck that came with a bulletproof engine in the first place. By all means, if you have a method that works for you, use it! That is why I am sticking to my routine as I have had supurb results. Others have posted what they have experienced with petroleum based products, and yet you still insist that they are wrong—even people that have worked on engines all of their lives. You are focusing on the most trouble-free component of the entire truck.

I think that the entire skepticism towards synthetics comes from people like you that make amazing claims and put down others. You have claimed that all of us petroleum based users will be rebuilding our engines at 400,000-miles. You, just by using a synthetic, will go 800,000-miles. I have news for you. I think that if there was any valid facts to doubling the MTBF by using Amsoil, Mr. Solso (CEO of Cummins Engine Company) himself would hand fill every engine he ever sold. I’m so sorry for authoring more fiction. I’m sure Amsoil is proud to have you as their spokeperson!


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David Dressler
2001 Driftwood 3500 Quad Cab 4x4, 155 inch WB, 5. 9L HO Cummins Diesel (ETH), 6-Speed HD Manual (DEE), SLT+, 3. 54 Anti-Spin Axle, Camper Special Group, Trailer Tow Group, Leather, Sliding Rear Window, Jacob's E-Brake, Rhino Liner, VDO Vision (pyro, boost, engine oil temp. ), Weather Guard Diamond Plate Saddle Box, Tork Lift camper tie-downs, Mag-Hytec Differential Cover, AND functional Halo light!
Bigfoot 3000 10. 11 Slide-in Camper.

[This message has been edited by dresslered (edited 10-20-2000). ]