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Why synthetic oil?
- Thread starter illflem
- Start Date
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Briar-- That would'nt be Dons' "94" with the 265k yer talkin about? If it is, it has well over 300k on it now and still running strong!! I've got almost 100k on mine without an oil change, running 3000 series 5-30 & dual bypass system -- getting 22 mpg -- i'm happy with it. 
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CUMMINS POWERED FAST FORD
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CUMMINS POWERED FAST FORD
dresserled,
Your post was fine. That is why I would like to hear Amsoil's response to it, not my own.
I also have NEVER had a problem with petroleum oils. I wanted to run the the best oil possible in my Cummins. I am.
You people who run petro oils are not wrong, but most insist that we who run synthetics are wrong! Several have said that an engine is the wrong application! BS!
Don't think for a minute that any engine company would tell you how to double your life. Their business would drop in half.
Uh, and doesn't Cummins say themselves these engines are designed for overhaul between 300,000 and 400,000 miles?
If you would like, send me a blank video tape, and I will copy a Mack teardown for you. 600,000 on the engine, 400,000 without an oil change.
Once again, I did not think you posted any fiction.
And , this was the reason I decided to quit posting on this. People have made up their minds and will not open them.
There is always a "disaster story" about synthetics that are total bunk.
Now with all the oil companys makeing "cheap synthetics" there will be more myths and problems. And the diehards can say, see I told you!
Like I said, do a search, anyone serious about facts, e-mail me.
Gene
Your post was fine. That is why I would like to hear Amsoil's response to it, not my own.
I also have NEVER had a problem with petroleum oils. I wanted to run the the best oil possible in my Cummins. I am.
You people who run petro oils are not wrong, but most insist that we who run synthetics are wrong! Several have said that an engine is the wrong application! BS!
Don't think for a minute that any engine company would tell you how to double your life. Their business would drop in half.
Uh, and doesn't Cummins say themselves these engines are designed for overhaul between 300,000 and 400,000 miles?
If you would like, send me a blank video tape, and I will copy a Mack teardown for you. 600,000 on the engine, 400,000 without an oil change.
Once again, I did not think you posted any fiction.
And , this was the reason I decided to quit posting on this. People have made up their minds and will not open them.
There is always a "disaster story" about synthetics that are total bunk.
Now with all the oil companys makeing "cheap synthetics" there will be more myths and problems. And the diehards can say, see I told you!
Like I said, do a search, anyone serious about facts, e-mail me.
Gene
Interesting point - my neighbor, an OTR trucker, looked at me like I was crazy when I told him I wanted a diesel pickup. I still don't really know why he felt that way, but I ignored his advice, bought the Cummins, and have been very
#adever since.
Yes, solid data would be nice. The only problem is, both sides of this debate seem to have "solid data" that backs their point of view. Both sides also have stories that back their point of view. So we won't get there that way, because neither side believes the other side's data or stories.
I've made a choice that fits my lifestyle, my driving style, my budget, addresses my concerns, and gives me a little more peace of mind. Those with data, keep it coming, I'm reading both sides with great interest.
But come on folks, this one isn't worth getting mad over. I also don't care if you wash your truck more often, or less often than me. Depending on where you live, the extra washing might make your paint last longer by getting the acid off, or, it might shorten the life because you're just rubbing a little paint off each time you wash. If we get too bored with the oil discussion, we can fight about that!
#adHC:
Right on! With both of your comments...
You could start this thread over again, tomorrow, (or just review the hundreds of entries in he archives) and rehash the same stuff. It's kinda like riding a ferris wheel at the county fair: The discussion has its highs and lows, but you never actually get anywhere.
My own (non-scientific) approach is that using a well-tested, high quality oil, like Shell Rotella 15W-40, in combination with regular, conscientious, routine maintenance of the truck's other components, will result in (with some luck) the truck arriving (fairly intact) at the point where Cummins feels the engine will probably need to be overhauled -- 300,000 miles.
If I make it to 300,000 miles with this truck, I'll probably be ready to trade it, with a big-assed grin on my face.
For me, even if synthetics would guarantee 600,000 miles to rebuild, I know I'm never going to keep the truck that long.
I put somewhere in the neighborhood of 25,000 miles per year on my truck, about twice the national average. At that rate, I'd have to keep my truck for 12 years, just to reach my 300,000 mile goal. Those folks running synthetics (and shooting for higher mileage to rebuild goals) have got to wonder what the rest of their trucks' mechanical components are going to be doing, say, at 420,000 miles (or, whatever).
I think the 300,000 mile goal is realistic and achieveable running petroleum-based lubricants. Beyond that point, I'll be in a new ride.
------------------
97 2500 4x4, club cab, auto, 3. 54 limited slip, JRE 4" exhaust, Dr. Performance Fuel system (370 HP), "Twister Turbo," Geno's guages -- Boost, EGT, transmission & Rear -- MAG Hytec covers, SunCoast Converter/Transgo shift kit, Brite Box, tons o'chrome under hood, Prime Loc, EZ Drain, Seat covers, wood dash, Rancho Suspension, Warn M12000 Winch on Warn Brush Guard, Warn driving and fog lights, Hella twin back up lights, 285/75/R16 B. F. G. ATs on Mickey Thompson "Classic" rims; Linex bed liner, BD exhaust brake, Optima, "Red-top" batteries. Northwest Custom mudflaps, front/rear, and stainless rocker panels.
[This message has been edited by Sasquatch (edited 10-20-2000). ]
Right on! With both of your comments...
You could start this thread over again, tomorrow, (or just review the hundreds of entries in he archives) and rehash the same stuff. It's kinda like riding a ferris wheel at the county fair: The discussion has its highs and lows, but you never actually get anywhere.
My own (non-scientific) approach is that using a well-tested, high quality oil, like Shell Rotella 15W-40, in combination with regular, conscientious, routine maintenance of the truck's other components, will result in (with some luck) the truck arriving (fairly intact) at the point where Cummins feels the engine will probably need to be overhauled -- 300,000 miles.
If I make it to 300,000 miles with this truck, I'll probably be ready to trade it, with a big-assed grin on my face.
For me, even if synthetics would guarantee 600,000 miles to rebuild, I know I'm never going to keep the truck that long.
I put somewhere in the neighborhood of 25,000 miles per year on my truck, about twice the national average. At that rate, I'd have to keep my truck for 12 years, just to reach my 300,000 mile goal. Those folks running synthetics (and shooting for higher mileage to rebuild goals) have got to wonder what the rest of their trucks' mechanical components are going to be doing, say, at 420,000 miles (or, whatever).
I think the 300,000 mile goal is realistic and achieveable running petroleum-based lubricants. Beyond that point, I'll be in a new ride.
------------------
97 2500 4x4, club cab, auto, 3. 54 limited slip, JRE 4" exhaust, Dr. Performance Fuel system (370 HP), "Twister Turbo," Geno's guages -- Boost, EGT, transmission & Rear -- MAG Hytec covers, SunCoast Converter/Transgo shift kit, Brite Box, tons o'chrome under hood, Prime Loc, EZ Drain, Seat covers, wood dash, Rancho Suspension, Warn M12000 Winch on Warn Brush Guard, Warn driving and fog lights, Hella twin back up lights, 285/75/R16 B. F. G. ATs on Mickey Thompson "Classic" rims; Linex bed liner, BD exhaust brake, Optima, "Red-top" batteries. Northwest Custom mudflaps, front/rear, and stainless rocker panels.
[This message has been edited by Sasquatch (edited 10-20-2000). ]
Amen... brother. .
BTW: The DC Course on the other hand is WELL worth it. . Even if it is a bit pricey. .
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98. 5' 24v 2500 Auto/3. 54 4x4 SB QC. Everything but leather. PIAA 1200's, AMSOIL dual filter relocation system, Smittybuilt Stainless Steel Nerfs, Rhino Liner(Junk), K&N air filter(For Sale)15 year AMSOIL dealer. Time permitting, Soon to include Ultra-lite Pyro,0-50lbs boost, Trans temp in the pillar. Rancho 9000's with in cab adjustment.
I have some questions.
1) How does Amsoil compare with other synthetics in price.
2) In the TDR there are sometimes 3 or more adds for Amsoil and there are phone numbers for different area. Sometimes there are phone numbers for georgia and they are different in different ads. Can someone explain this. I know what this kinda insinuates to me but just thought i would ask. It makes me think it is multi level kinda thing like Amway; Is it? I say that because i heard someone say something in chat like they were inline behind someone?
I have used premium blue and I should be at18,000 miles at my next change and I will probably do one more with reg oil and then after that I might go with Cummins semi synthetic or I might jump to 100% Synthetic because If I know that I could get to 600,000 miles that would be great. I have a 1971 dodge and a 2001 so that would put me right on schedule for a 2031. 20,000 miles ayear times 30 yrs sounds good to me
John
1) How does Amsoil compare with other synthetics in price.
2) In the TDR there are sometimes 3 or more adds for Amsoil and there are phone numbers for different area. Sometimes there are phone numbers for georgia and they are different in different ads. Can someone explain this. I know what this kinda insinuates to me but just thought i would ask. It makes me think it is multi level kinda thing like Amway; Is it? I say that because i heard someone say something in chat like they were inline behind someone?
I have used premium blue and I should be at18,000 miles at my next change and I will probably do one more with reg oil and then after that I might go with Cummins semi synthetic or I might jump to 100% Synthetic because If I know that I could get to 600,000 miles that would be great. I have a 1971 dodge and a 2001 so that would put me right on schedule for a 2031. 20,000 miles ayear times 30 yrs sounds good to me
John
Amsoil Inc. will not respond to a manufacturer's recommendation unless they state warranty coverage is voided by extending drains.
Amsoil Diesel oils do carry the "SJ" rating.
Drag Racer,
Those are the nicest compliments anyone has ever said to me! Thank you. And if you are a Drag Racer, you already know that synthetics give you an edge, don't you?
Isn't it funny how everybody says they don't care about this topic, but they seem to keep reading and posting?
And I plan on keeping this truck for a long time. It took them 30 years to build something I wanted, and they have already screwed it up! I have to keep it!
------------------
1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled
Member of TDR,LIC-ROC,GLTDR,NRA
[This message has been edited by MGM (edited 10-20-2000). ]
Amsoil Diesel oils do carry the "SJ" rating.
Drag Racer,
Those are the nicest compliments anyone has ever said to me! Thank you. And if you are a Drag Racer, you already know that synthetics give you an edge, don't you?
Isn't it funny how everybody says they don't care about this topic, but they seem to keep reading and posting?
And I plan on keeping this truck for a long time. It took them 30 years to build something I wanted, and they have already screwed it up! I have to keep it!
------------------
1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled
Member of TDR,LIC-ROC,GLTDR,NRA
[This message has been edited by MGM (edited 10-20-2000). ]
Sasquatch,
You beat me too it! I was just going to ask, What if I only want my truck for about 5-7 years? I do a average of 25k miles a year, so I really dont plan on owning a truck for past say 150k miles no more than 200k thats for sure. For me I like to have vehicles that are really no more than 10 years old. So Now what is said above, would you use synthetics? I am all for synthetics in the differentials and transmission, but not sure for the oil.
Sky
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2001 QuadCab,SWB,Auto, 4X4,4" Flowmaster Exhaust, Bosch 275 Injectors... ... ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
4-Sale 1994 4X4 cummins, Two tone blue and silver,Auto, all stock 105k very well looked after
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You beat me too it! I was just going to ask, What if I only want my truck for about 5-7 years? I do a average of 25k miles a year, so I really dont plan on owning a truck for past say 150k miles no more than 200k thats for sure. For me I like to have vehicles that are really no more than 10 years old. So Now what is said above, would you use synthetics? I am all for synthetics in the differentials and transmission, but not sure for the oil.
Sky
------------------
2001 QuadCab,SWB,Auto, 4X4,4" Flowmaster Exhaust, Bosch 275 Injectors... ... ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
4-Sale 1994 4X4 cummins, Two tone blue and silver,Auto, all stock 105k very well looked after
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DieselB59 said:
"Regular petroleum formulas have anti-scuff, anti-acid and anti-soot additives that the synthetics do not. "
Does DieselB59 have any evidence of this? My Amsoil 15W-40 container says otherwise. It also says that it has the proper API ratings for a diesel. Are you saying that Amsoil is emulating the vice president? There are federal and state laws to prevent companies from making false claims of their products. There are also laws against libel and slander. There are no laws against being uninformed.
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'95 2500 SLT ClubCab, automatic, 3. 54 LSD
"Regular petroleum formulas have anti-scuff, anti-acid and anti-soot additives that the synthetics do not. "
Does DieselB59 have any evidence of this? My Amsoil 15W-40 container says otherwise. It also says that it has the proper API ratings for a diesel. Are you saying that Amsoil is emulating the vice president? There are federal and state laws to prevent companies from making false claims of their products. There are also laws against libel and slander. There are no laws against being uninformed.
------------------
'95 2500 SLT ClubCab, automatic, 3. 54 LSD
John
TDR MEMBER
Right on Tim! I meant to comment on that in my previous post. You are correct... Amsoil does contain ALL of the elements you mentioned... in spades!
... and then there is the topic of turbocharger protection that synthetics are vastly superior at.
... and lastly, when I sell one of my vehicles not only does the first person who looks at it, buy it, I always get VERY close to my asking price! Why? General condition of the vehicle, maintenance records and receipts illustrating the extraordinary care I give and the quality of products I use. I sold my last 4x4 for EXACTLY what I was asking (market price)... to the first person who looked at it. He stated he had never seen better care given to a vehicle. So, to me little things like using a quality synthetic is money in the bank!
[This message has been edited by John (edited 10-20-2000). ]
... and then there is the topic of turbocharger protection that synthetics are vastly superior at.
... and lastly, when I sell one of my vehicles not only does the first person who looks at it, buy it, I always get VERY close to my asking price! Why? General condition of the vehicle, maintenance records and receipts illustrating the extraordinary care I give and the quality of products I use. I sold my last 4x4 for EXACTLY what I was asking (market price)... to the first person who looked at it. He stated he had never seen better care given to a vehicle. So, to me little things like using a quality synthetic is money in the bank!
[This message has been edited by John (edited 10-20-2000). ]
MGM,
You said that a petrolium oil would only get you to 400,000 miles and Amsoil would get you to 800,000 miles. LE is a petrolium oil are you saying that LE can only get you to 400,000 miles??? I'm talking about the LE #8800 15w-40 that has been proven for years in diesel engines to extend engine life at least double, that is the approved API viscosity for the engines, and that has the APPROVAL of API to display the API doughnut on the bottles and drums. Amsoil does not have the API approval and cannot display the API doughnut because they are NOT APPROVED BY THE API and if the dealers knew that you were putting an oil in your engine that was not API approved then you could void your warranty. Why is it that you say things like "Amsoil Diesel oils do carry the "SJ" rating. " when in fact you know that Amsoil does not have the SJ rating on the HDD and Marine oil that is the most talked about oil on the sight. In fact the HDD and Marine oils series 2000 or 3000 do not have ANY API approvals and Amsoil just prints it as if it did, but then cannot put the API doughnut on the bottles. Lets look at API's web sight and see what oils Amsoil has API approvals on. http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li. cgi?n=Amsoil
Nope I sure did not see the oils that are marketed by the Amsoil guys on this API APPROVAL sight.
Let's look and see if LE has any oils that are API APPROVED on the same API web sight.
http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li. cgi?n=Lubrication+Engineers
Sure do, just like most other companies LE has API approved engine oils for all the different viscosities, including the LE #8800 15w-40 that I have recommended on this sight. I have also shown that in the Falex wear test that LE oil has slightly less wear than the Amsoil product and that the LE oil has 36% more oxidation resistance than the Amsoil product (LE 15w-40 to Amsoil 15w-40). MGM, you cannot say, petro oils are inferior to Amsoil, because it has been proven otherwise. You cannot say that the API has given Amsoil the Approval to use the CH-4 doughnut, and you should not imply that Amsoil had the Approval from API. These sales tactics are misleading to the readers.
Yes I know my statements are going to make you mad and that you will come back with some kind of off-the-wall statement about the validity of the Falex test, but I have already proven how much better the Falex test is than the 4-ball test that you use. There is no statement that you or Amsoil can come up with that will approve you to say that you are APPROVED by the API for CH-4.
You have to remember that there are guys on this sight that are knowedgable in their own field, whatever that might be. And that with the use of the internet one can find other info like the API sight. If I were to make statements about which computer chip was better than another and gave reasons, I would not be right because I don't have the knoledge about chips. But you can believe that someone else on this sight will clear things up if that is his field of business. If Amsoil is truly your field of business, then you should post the entire truth or someone will correct you.
Sincerely, Kevin
You said that a petrolium oil would only get you to 400,000 miles and Amsoil would get you to 800,000 miles. LE is a petrolium oil are you saying that LE can only get you to 400,000 miles??? I'm talking about the LE #8800 15w-40 that has been proven for years in diesel engines to extend engine life at least double, that is the approved API viscosity for the engines, and that has the APPROVAL of API to display the API doughnut on the bottles and drums. Amsoil does not have the API approval and cannot display the API doughnut because they are NOT APPROVED BY THE API and if the dealers knew that you were putting an oil in your engine that was not API approved then you could void your warranty. Why is it that you say things like "Amsoil Diesel oils do carry the "SJ" rating. " when in fact you know that Amsoil does not have the SJ rating on the HDD and Marine oil that is the most talked about oil on the sight. In fact the HDD and Marine oils series 2000 or 3000 do not have ANY API approvals and Amsoil just prints it as if it did, but then cannot put the API doughnut on the bottles. Lets look at API's web sight and see what oils Amsoil has API approvals on. http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li. cgi?n=Amsoil
Nope I sure did not see the oils that are marketed by the Amsoil guys on this API APPROVAL sight.
Let's look and see if LE has any oils that are API APPROVED on the same API web sight.
http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li. cgi?n=Lubrication+Engineers
Sure do, just like most other companies LE has API approved engine oils for all the different viscosities, including the LE #8800 15w-40 that I have recommended on this sight. I have also shown that in the Falex wear test that LE oil has slightly less wear than the Amsoil product and that the LE oil has 36% more oxidation resistance than the Amsoil product (LE 15w-40 to Amsoil 15w-40). MGM, you cannot say, petro oils are inferior to Amsoil, because it has been proven otherwise. You cannot say that the API has given Amsoil the Approval to use the CH-4 doughnut, and you should not imply that Amsoil had the Approval from API. These sales tactics are misleading to the readers.
Yes I know my statements are going to make you mad and that you will come back with some kind of off-the-wall statement about the validity of the Falex test, but I have already proven how much better the Falex test is than the 4-ball test that you use. There is no statement that you or Amsoil can come up with that will approve you to say that you are APPROVED by the API for CH-4.
You have to remember that there are guys on this sight that are knowedgable in their own field, whatever that might be. And that with the use of the internet one can find other info like the API sight. If I were to make statements about which computer chip was better than another and gave reasons, I would not be right because I don't have the knoledge about chips. But you can believe that someone else on this sight will clear things up if that is his field of business. If Amsoil is truly your field of business, then you should post the entire truth or someone will correct you.
Sincerely, Kevin
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I personally like Dellalo's Extra Virgin Olive Oil, but will settle for Wesson Oil if I have too. 
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#ad#ad#ad#adDiesel Doug,it's no joke. I bought a new Massey-Fergison tractor,they are now made in Italy. It had a warning sticker under the hood that read,"Use only virgin vegetable oil according to your owners manual"I called the dealer about it he said that brake fuild is illegal in Europe now,virgin olive oil goes in the master cylinder!
Here is the Amsoil diesel oil page. Check out the API certifications: http://www.amsoil.com/products/ame.html
Amsoils say the HD Diesel and Marine oil meets API Service CG-4, CF-2, CF, SJ, SH.
I checked the API's site as well. Amsoil IS mentioned, but only the PCO. Another invalid blanket statement. http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li. cgi?g=15W%2D40
Look under license No. 0995.
If there is a reason to believe that these certifications are false, then we need to hear it. There are legal avenues for dealing with these kinds of problems. Otherwise, unfounded accusations are improper as well and have no place on this site.
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'95 2500 SLT ClubCab, automatic, 3. 54 LSD
Amsoils say the HD Diesel and Marine oil meets API Service CG-4, CF-2, CF, SJ, SH.
I checked the API's site as well. Amsoil IS mentioned, but only the PCO. Another invalid blanket statement. http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li. cgi?g=15W%2D40
Look under license No. 0995.
If there is a reason to believe that these certifications are false, then we need to hear it. There are legal avenues for dealing with these kinds of problems. Otherwise, unfounded accusations are improper as well and have no place on this site.
------------------
'95 2500 SLT ClubCab, automatic, 3. 54 LSD
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Quote
"Amsoil Diesel Oils do carry the "SJ" rating"
This statement is wrong, thanks to Kevin for pointing it out. My mistake. Not a sales tactic, A mistake.
It should read,
"Amsoil 15w-40 12TBN Heavy Duty Diesel & Marine oil meets or exceeds the following specifications: CG-4, CF, CF-2, SJ, SH"
If this oil did not meet these specs, it would be false advertising.
Amsoil does not have the API star on this oil.
Why?
It costs a lot of money, and it locks them into that formulation. They are always improving their products and do not wish to pay for licensing every time a small change is made.
Dealers can NOT void any warrantys because of this.
Kevin, I did not mention LE any where!?
Kevin, I have no sales tactics but the truth. I made a mistake up above. I have corrected it.
The rest of your post has been discredited in the past, do a search, if you wish, I won't go into that again.
And yes Kevin, Any Petroleum oil will Explode when it reaches 400,000 miles. How do you get that? Did you read this whole thread or just a few?
Kevin, you always come out so hostile. Chill out. Go get another Cummins and enjoy life!
------------------
1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled
Member of TDR,LIC-ROC,GLTDR,NRA
"Amsoil Diesel Oils do carry the "SJ" rating"
This statement is wrong, thanks to Kevin for pointing it out. My mistake. Not a sales tactic, A mistake.
It should read,
"Amsoil 15w-40 12TBN Heavy Duty Diesel & Marine oil meets or exceeds the following specifications: CG-4, CF, CF-2, SJ, SH"
If this oil did not meet these specs, it would be false advertising.
Amsoil does not have the API star on this oil.
Why?
It costs a lot of money, and it locks them into that formulation. They are always improving their products and do not wish to pay for licensing every time a small change is made.
Dealers can NOT void any warrantys because of this.
Kevin, I did not mention LE any where!?
Kevin, I have no sales tactics but the truth. I made a mistake up above. I have corrected it.
The rest of your post has been discredited in the past, do a search, if you wish, I won't go into that again.
And yes Kevin, Any Petroleum oil will Explode when it reaches 400,000 miles. How do you get that? Did you read this whole thread or just a few?
Kevin, you always come out so hostile. Chill out. Go get another Cummins and enjoy life!
------------------
1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled
Member of TDR,LIC-ROC,GLTDR,NRA
I asked the API about the lack of a "doughnut" on motor oil. Here's what I found:
"Sir, I am using a motor oil (Amsoil SAE 15W-40 Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel
and Marine Motor Oil) that claims API Service CG-4, CF-2, CF, SJ, SH,
but the certification does not appear on your web site. Why isn't the
certification on your web site?
Tim Barlow
The API representative replied within minutes.
The following is his response.
Currently, AMSOIL has three products licensed to display the API Marks.
AMSOIL PCO 15W-40 SJ/CH-4
AMSOIL XL-7500 5W-30 SJ/CF
AMSOIL XL-7500 10W-30 SJ/CF
They have not submitted an application for the product you asked about to
have it added to their license. That would be a licensing problem.
It is possible that the label is OK depending on exactly what the label
says.
If they display the API Service Symbol (which looks like a donut) with that
group of service categories (CG-4, CF-2, CF, SJ, SH) shown in the top half
of the outer ring, that is a violation of the API trademark as well as
violating the licensing agreement.
If they do not show those in the API Service Symbol but instead put a line
of text on the label that says it meets the requirements of those API
service categories, then it is not a licensing problem because they are
simply telling the consumer that in their opinion the product meets the
standard for that service category. In this situation, API publishes those
standards for the service category but does not monitor their compliance
with the standard.
The only products that we monitor and test are those that are actually
licensed to show the API Certification Mark or the API Service Symbol.
If they do have the API Service Symbol or API Certification Mark on the
container, we are very interested in following up on that potential
trademark and licensing violation. Please let me know if the symbol is
displayed on the label.
Otherwise, I hope this information has been helpful to interpret the
information on the product label.
If I can be of any further assistance, please feel free to contact me.
Danny Collins
American Petroleum Institute
Program Assistant - EOLCS / AMAP
202-682-8310 Voice
202-962-4739 Fax
collinsD@api.org
---------------------------------------------
This guy was great to respond so quickly.
This is a LICENSING issue, not a certification issue. Licensing costs $$$.
Maybe someone wants to ask Amsoil why they have not licensed the doughnut for the HD Diesel and Marine Oil.
------------------
'95 2500 SLT ClubCab, automatic, 3. 54 LSD
[This message has been edited by Tim Barlow (edited 10-20-2000). ]
"Sir, I am using a motor oil (Amsoil SAE 15W-40 Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel
and Marine Motor Oil) that claims API Service CG-4, CF-2, CF, SJ, SH,
but the certification does not appear on your web site. Why isn't the
certification on your web site?
Tim Barlow
The API representative replied within minutes.
The following is his response.
Currently, AMSOIL has three products licensed to display the API Marks.
AMSOIL PCO 15W-40 SJ/CH-4
AMSOIL XL-7500 5W-30 SJ/CF
AMSOIL XL-7500 10W-30 SJ/CF
They have not submitted an application for the product you asked about to
have it added to their license. That would be a licensing problem.
It is possible that the label is OK depending on exactly what the label
says.
If they display the API Service Symbol (which looks like a donut) with that
group of service categories (CG-4, CF-2, CF, SJ, SH) shown in the top half
of the outer ring, that is a violation of the API trademark as well as
violating the licensing agreement.
If they do not show those in the API Service Symbol but instead put a line
of text on the label that says it meets the requirements of those API
service categories, then it is not a licensing problem because they are
simply telling the consumer that in their opinion the product meets the
standard for that service category. In this situation, API publishes those
standards for the service category but does not monitor their compliance
with the standard.
The only products that we monitor and test are those that are actually
licensed to show the API Certification Mark or the API Service Symbol.
If they do have the API Service Symbol or API Certification Mark on the
container, we are very interested in following up on that potential
trademark and licensing violation. Please let me know if the symbol is
displayed on the label.
Otherwise, I hope this information has been helpful to interpret the
information on the product label.
If I can be of any further assistance, please feel free to contact me.
Danny Collins
American Petroleum Institute
Program Assistant - EOLCS / AMAP
202-682-8310 Voice
202-962-4739 Fax
collinsD@api.org
---------------------------------------------
This guy was great to respond so quickly.
This is a LICENSING issue, not a certification issue. Licensing costs $$$.
Maybe someone wants to ask Amsoil why they have not licensed the doughnut for the HD Diesel and Marine Oil.
------------------
'95 2500 SLT ClubCab, automatic, 3. 54 LSD
[This message has been edited by Tim Barlow (edited 10-20-2000). ]
amsoilman
Staff Alumni
I would first like to make a statement about the Amsoil 5W-30 Heavy Duty Diesel oil, and then I will site you an SAE Technical Paper entitled "A Synthetic Diesel Engine Oil with Extended Laboratory Test and Field Service Performance" as written on October 16-19, 1995 at a Fuels & Lubricants Meeting & Exposition held in Toronto, Ontario.
First the statement!
Amsoil HDD series 3000 5W-30 engine oil does meet or exceed API CH-4, CG-4 CF-2, CF and SJ. This information is on their Technical Data Sheet dated 1-00, as well as on the oil containers. If someone wanted to challange this, it would have to be proven wrong, and I'm sure Amsoil does not want to lose a 27 year history, by makeing false statements. It is not "Licensed" by the API,but it does not have to be "licensed" as long as it does not have the so called "donut".
And now the SAE Technical Paper.
ABSTRACT
This paper describes the engine test and extended oil drain field performance of new synthetic Diesel engine oil(SYN-DEO)technology developed for use in North American low-emission heavy-duty Diesel engines. The resulting formulation utilizes an advanced additive system specifically tailored for synthetic base stocks which exceeds current industry and engine builder targets in critical performance tests. Use of synthetic base stocks allows the formulation of engine oils with a unique combination of performance characteristics, which include meeting SAE 5W-40 viscosity requirements for cold starting benefits while maintaining low volatility loss at high temperature for oil consumption control. In addition to meeting API CG-4, CF-4, CF-2, CF, SH and EC requirements, this technology has also demonstrated exceptional performance in extended-length Diesel and gasoline engine tests. Furthermore, it has also performed very well in extended service interval field tests.
At drain intervals up to four times those normally recommended, excellent engine wear, deposit protection, and oil consumption control have been consistently demonstrated. Additionally, fuel economy benefits in excess of 4% relative to SAE 15W-40 conventional mineral oils have been documented.
The desire to reduce costs associated with the operation of heavy-duty diesel engines has prompted considerable interest in extending the mileage and/or time between engine and vehicle service intervals. Extended service intervals for engine and other vehicle lubricants offer the potential) for multiple cost benefits. Lower cost for consumable materials (lubricants and filters), reduced labor costs for scheduled
maintenance, less out-of service time for engines and/or vehicles, and lower expenses for disposal of used oil and filters are several potential benefits that could be realized by extending service intervals. As operating costs rise, the incentive for fleet operators to extend engine service intervals increases. It is critical, however, that extension of engine service intervals does not negatively impact engine reliability and durability since increased repair costs and engine down-time would rapidly offset cost benefits gained by extending service intervals.
At the same time that engine operators are recognizing the benefits for extending service intervals, diesel engine manufacturers are producing updated emission controlled engines with significantly higher specific power output than the older engines they replace. Therefore, operating conditions for engine oils are likely to be more severe due to potentially increased thermal and load stresses. Engine builders and operators also expect improved durability from modern diesel engines, further increasing the performance demands on engine oil technology. Combining a move to extended oil drain intervals with the introduction of engines with higher power densities and longer service lifetimes increases the challenges for developing engine oils capable of providing the level of protection needed to prevent lubricant related engine problems.
The objective of the work described in this paper was to develop a high performance diesel engine oil with the capacity to provide the maximum level of engine protection at extended oil drain intervals.
PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT STRATEGY
The performance benefits of well balanced engine oils formulated with synthetic polyalaolefin (PAO) base stocks have been well documented in the literature (1-4); therefore, this was considered as the preferred approach to develop the best possible premium diesel engine oil. A number of Synthetic diesel engine oil formulations, based on specially developed additive technology, were used as the starting point. The additive components were selected to optimize the heavy-duty diesel engine performance of the final product while maintaining a high level of gasoline engine test performance. For example, the ashless dispersant and metallic detergent systems were carefully balanced to minimize formation of diesel piston deposits. Additionally, the viscosity of the base stock system and concentration of viscosity improver polymer were selected to provide a product meeting SAE 5W-40 viscometrics. This viscosity grade was considered to be optimum for this application since it allows for exceptional low temperature properties while maintaining the high temperature viscosity at a level typical of modern Diesel engine oils. Some of the characteristics of the resulting synthetic heavy-duty diesel engine oil (SYN-DEO) are summarized in the following section.
Many units have operated on SYN-DEO in heavy-duty, long-haul service at extended oil drain intervals, with some units on drain intervals beyond 100,000 miles. Even under these conditions, SYN-DEO has consistently provided measurable benefits in terms of improved engine performance.
Fleet tests with SYN-DEO are being conducted in Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel and Mack engines.
CONCLUSIONS
An SAE 5W-40 synthetic heavy duty diesel engine oil exceeding CG-4, CF-4, CF-2, CF, SH, and EC performance specifications has been developed. Results from this study indicate that formulating an optimized high performance additive system utilizing synthetic base stocks provides a product with a combination of unique physical properties, and laboratory and field engine performance attributes. The high level of performance documented for SYN-DEO in standard and extended-length engine tests was further demonstrated in field testing using greatly extended oil drain intervals. The successful performance of SYN-DEO in severe fleet service confirms the potential for premium synthetic diesel engine oils in extended service applications. Application of this technology offers numerous significant benefits to engine users.
The extraordinary rheological characteristics of SYN-DEO make it well suited for applications where low temperature engine operation or high temperature oil stability are of concern. The outstanding pumping and cranking performance of this product offers excellent low temperature starting performance. At the same time, the synthetic base stocks provide a product with kinematic and high-temperature high-shear viscosities at levels typical of premium SAE 15W-40 mineral oils. Additionally, the high temperature volatility of SYN-DEO is well below that of most multigrade diesel engine oils.
2. When used at standard oil drain intervals, SYN-DEO will provide a substantial performance reserve in the areas of soot dispersancy, viscosity stability, sludge and deposit control, engine wear, and oxidation stability, with reduced Oil consumption and improved fuel economy, all of which should contribute to extended engine life.
I can supply you with the entire Document if needed.
Wayne Owen
amsoilman
[This message has been edited by amsoilman (edited 10-22-2000). ]
First the statement!
Amsoil HDD series 3000 5W-30 engine oil does meet or exceed API CH-4, CG-4 CF-2, CF and SJ. This information is on their Technical Data Sheet dated 1-00, as well as on the oil containers. If someone wanted to challange this, it would have to be proven wrong, and I'm sure Amsoil does not want to lose a 27 year history, by makeing false statements. It is not "Licensed" by the API,but it does not have to be "licensed" as long as it does not have the so called "donut".
And now the SAE Technical Paper.
ABSTRACT
This paper describes the engine test and extended oil drain field performance of new synthetic Diesel engine oil(SYN-DEO)technology developed for use in North American low-emission heavy-duty Diesel engines. The resulting formulation utilizes an advanced additive system specifically tailored for synthetic base stocks which exceeds current industry and engine builder targets in critical performance tests. Use of synthetic base stocks allows the formulation of engine oils with a unique combination of performance characteristics, which include meeting SAE 5W-40 viscosity requirements for cold starting benefits while maintaining low volatility loss at high temperature for oil consumption control. In addition to meeting API CG-4, CF-4, CF-2, CF, SH and EC requirements, this technology has also demonstrated exceptional performance in extended-length Diesel and gasoline engine tests. Furthermore, it has also performed very well in extended service interval field tests.
At drain intervals up to four times those normally recommended, excellent engine wear, deposit protection, and oil consumption control have been consistently demonstrated. Additionally, fuel economy benefits in excess of 4% relative to SAE 15W-40 conventional mineral oils have been documented.
The desire to reduce costs associated with the operation of heavy-duty diesel engines has prompted considerable interest in extending the mileage and/or time between engine and vehicle service intervals. Extended service intervals for engine and other vehicle lubricants offer the potential) for multiple cost benefits. Lower cost for consumable materials (lubricants and filters), reduced labor costs for scheduled
maintenance, less out-of service time for engines and/or vehicles, and lower expenses for disposal of used oil and filters are several potential benefits that could be realized by extending service intervals. As operating costs rise, the incentive for fleet operators to extend engine service intervals increases. It is critical, however, that extension of engine service intervals does not negatively impact engine reliability and durability since increased repair costs and engine down-time would rapidly offset cost benefits gained by extending service intervals.
At the same time that engine operators are recognizing the benefits for extending service intervals, diesel engine manufacturers are producing updated emission controlled engines with significantly higher specific power output than the older engines they replace. Therefore, operating conditions for engine oils are likely to be more severe due to potentially increased thermal and load stresses. Engine builders and operators also expect improved durability from modern diesel engines, further increasing the performance demands on engine oil technology. Combining a move to extended oil drain intervals with the introduction of engines with higher power densities and longer service lifetimes increases the challenges for developing engine oils capable of providing the level of protection needed to prevent lubricant related engine problems.
The objective of the work described in this paper was to develop a high performance diesel engine oil with the capacity to provide the maximum level of engine protection at extended oil drain intervals.
PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT STRATEGY
The performance benefits of well balanced engine oils formulated with synthetic polyalaolefin (PAO) base stocks have been well documented in the literature (1-4); therefore, this was considered as the preferred approach to develop the best possible premium diesel engine oil. A number of Synthetic diesel engine oil formulations, based on specially developed additive technology, were used as the starting point. The additive components were selected to optimize the heavy-duty diesel engine performance of the final product while maintaining a high level of gasoline engine test performance. For example, the ashless dispersant and metallic detergent systems were carefully balanced to minimize formation of diesel piston deposits. Additionally, the viscosity of the base stock system and concentration of viscosity improver polymer were selected to provide a product meeting SAE 5W-40 viscometrics. This viscosity grade was considered to be optimum for this application since it allows for exceptional low temperature properties while maintaining the high temperature viscosity at a level typical of modern Diesel engine oils. Some of the characteristics of the resulting synthetic heavy-duty diesel engine oil (SYN-DEO) are summarized in the following section.
Many units have operated on SYN-DEO in heavy-duty, long-haul service at extended oil drain intervals, with some units on drain intervals beyond 100,000 miles. Even under these conditions, SYN-DEO has consistently provided measurable benefits in terms of improved engine performance.
Fleet tests with SYN-DEO are being conducted in Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel and Mack engines.
CONCLUSIONS
An SAE 5W-40 synthetic heavy duty diesel engine oil exceeding CG-4, CF-4, CF-2, CF, SH, and EC performance specifications has been developed. Results from this study indicate that formulating an optimized high performance additive system utilizing synthetic base stocks provides a product with a combination of unique physical properties, and laboratory and field engine performance attributes. The high level of performance documented for SYN-DEO in standard and extended-length engine tests was further demonstrated in field testing using greatly extended oil drain intervals. The successful performance of SYN-DEO in severe fleet service confirms the potential for premium synthetic diesel engine oils in extended service applications. Application of this technology offers numerous significant benefits to engine users.
The extraordinary rheological characteristics of SYN-DEO make it well suited for applications where low temperature engine operation or high temperature oil stability are of concern. The outstanding pumping and cranking performance of this product offers excellent low temperature starting performance. At the same time, the synthetic base stocks provide a product with kinematic and high-temperature high-shear viscosities at levels typical of premium SAE 15W-40 mineral oils. Additionally, the high temperature volatility of SYN-DEO is well below that of most multigrade diesel engine oils.
2. When used at standard oil drain intervals, SYN-DEO will provide a substantial performance reserve in the areas of soot dispersancy, viscosity stability, sludge and deposit control, engine wear, and oxidation stability, with reduced Oil consumption and improved fuel economy, all of which should contribute to extended engine life.
I can supply you with the entire Document if needed.
Wayne Owen
amsoilman
[This message has been edited by amsoilman (edited 10-22-2000). ]
I am interested in going synthetic in my 2001 HO. I have a few questions I need answered. Which ans oil should I use, I visited the Ams-oil web site and was surprised to see so many oils. I currently have 7000 miles, should I change over yet? I used about a half quart in 3500 miles. Which bypass system do I use, I thought the bypass was seperate from the stock filter location, but I saw that there was a full flow/bypass combo, this sounds easy to work with. I'm trying to find a local amsoil dealer to talk with and buy from. How does this sampling thing work, where do I send the sample to? How much does the whole change over cost?
T. J. Brienen
------------------
2001 2500QC High output 6 Speed 4WD 3. 54
T. J. Brienen
------------------
2001 2500QC High output 6 Speed 4WD 3. 54
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
