2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Winter Chains - Advice Requested

[D. Showan]

Often, the back (unmaintained) mountain roads in PA are a sheet of ice and sometimes quite steep. I almost got stuck today when I went to pull out a Powerstroke and a Nissan. It took two runs to get up the steepest hill. It's no fun trying to back down a sheet of ice. Never again, I'm getting chains ASAP

 

[jandtjil]

I think your choice of tire also effects the chain decision.



I currently have the stock Michelin AS's on, the difference between their traction on dry/wet dirt is huge!!

Chains are my insurance policy when the road condition has changed since when I arrived (prior to a rain/snow storm).

oh yeah Buy extra bungee cords!!!



JJ

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

"Anyone else notice that most of the folks in this thread that support chains live in the south?"



Sure, folks less experienced in snow driving may want an extra edge. Bill, when you drive through Death Valley in July, might you want the extra edge of a 5 gallon water jug in the bed?



I have used chains twice, as I stated above, on my Ram. Both times in remote areas with lots of snow. Sure, you can't go fast with them but you sure as h can't stop fast without them. The rutted trails I frequent when hunting can throw you too. Last time I used chains, I was at about 9000 ft on a power line "road" that had a bad sideslope and unknown % grades up ahead. I really wanted to get back to the valley, but not in one millisecond, if you know what I mean.



With experience, and assuming the other drivers are sensible (yep, in Montana you have probably weeded out all the non-sensible ones already ) you can do almost all your driving without chains. And, Bill, I agree with your implication that experience and care are foremost.



Me, I have two pairs of chains for going places where they might be needed. The second set, for the rear wheels, is still in the bag. I do feel better having them along. But then I'm the kind of guy who likes belt, suspenders, and velcro. I carry cables, straps, series 80 3/8" chain, and 2- 8000 pound come alongs with 31' of cable on them. I figure if I ever need any of that stuff it will be where I can't buy it at any price.

 

[The Grinch]

I recently bought my 2500 4X4... in Florida. I live in WA! I had a friend with a bunch of shop tools in Massachusetts that he wanted moved to his new home in northern CA. I agreed to help him out, and he helped drive across the US (and paid fuel). My truck has 19. 5's on it. I checked with Ricksons, my local Les Schwab tire center (west coast chain) and with Tire Chains.com. My local folks had the lowest price, but I was going to have to ship them. Tire Chains.com offered to "throw in" the adjusters I'd need, and by doing so, beat the local guys.

Fine.

They were shipped where I indicated (MA) and I loaded them in the truck. Ice, snow... didn't matter... through all of the states along I-80 in December, I didn't need them AT ALL! That is, until we got to Donner's pass in CA. Even though I had a 4X4 - because I was hauling a trailer - they insisted I chain up!

The tirechains.com chains were big commercial units... . so big, in fact, that they didn't fit! They had sent the wrong chains! I found a local guy (Truckee, CA) who's business it was to install chains on the big trucks that go over the pass. He cut off a whole bunch of the chain, then asked me for the key. "Key????... . what key? They sent these adjusters for them... . " The guy almost laughed at me!

They had not only sent the wrong SIZE chain, they also sent the wrong TYPE of chain, and failed to send a key element with them! Luckily, this guy had a spare key for these chains, which he gave me after charging me only $20 for the cut/install. I threw him another $5 (all the cash I had left) and we went on our way.

The properly fitted chains performed flawlessly, and there was no damage - whatsoever - resulting from lessened clearance due to the 19. 5s. So for that part of your question, I can answer absolutely, and from direct, recent experience.

Once home, I called tirechains.com to ask for a partial refund, due to the fact that I was out an additional $25, PLUS the hassle, and asked if they wanted their useless adjusters back. They basically told me to screw myself... because it was my fault that I didn't allow enough time to test fit them before needing them! What???:--)



So, my short answers are: IF you buy 19. 5s, chains will work just fine, and cause no damage if properly fitted. IF you have to cross into or out of CA in winter, you'd better be prepared to chain up. IF you decide to buy chains DO NOT buy them from tirechains.com

The Grinch (and still fuming over that!)

 

[tgbol]

Anyone else notice that most of the folks in this thread that support chains live in the south?"



Illflem

I agree that it seems that way. But there are other factors that come into it. CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL They think that chains are the only answer. one stinking snow flake and chain control.



Do you really need chains? To me, that's just the "you don't really need 4WD" discussion repackaged. It's not about what you "need" as much as it is about what you "want".



HC

Your right but because I have the cabin in the mountains and like to use in the winter. I like to go to Baja and camp on the beaches and trek inland. I like to go to desert and camp and hunt. Three of my 4 vehicles are 4x4.

 

[dpetre]

Chains can be the best insurance that you can have if you carry them with you and know how to use them. Many years ago I was hunting in Montana. We had gone from dry roads to snow packed ice covered roads and I was driving a jeep j-10 4 by 4. The road was so slick that I could not make it up to a turn around and so I tried to back down. Well to make a long story short I got some much needed exercise and walked out to get a 6 by 6 chained wrecker my chains where safely stored in my tool box at the farm. Do I carry chains with me today. . You bet. Have I needed them since the 1976 Montana hunting trip the answer is yes. I travel from my house in Salcha Ak to the big city Anchorage which is 460 miles several times each winter. I hunt up North mileage 550 miles plus one way. I go to clear off the snow on my boat in Valdez 340 miles one way. Winter is a way of life where I live and you can not be to safe do not let the guys who do not carry chains with them influence your decision to buy at least a set for the front of your vehicle because they will not be there to pull you out if you get stuck. Make sure that you have some weight in the back of your rig for traction. I recommend 600lbs of sand bags for 2500 and 1000lbs for 3500. Good luck and have a safe winter.

 

[Josparkz]

There was only one time I every really wanted to chain up my Ram. And since it was brand new , I din't have any chains on-board.

Never again. Two pairs (correctly sized) all of the time.

I have had to run chains on the snowy highways on a 2 wheel drive. I t would go around 4x4s. Same thing in mud. Chains are awesome.

Joe Donelly hit the nail on the head about chaining up before you need them. It is trickier to do when you are slid off of the road , and really nasty when you are stuck in the mud. (been there, done that , got the tee-shirt )

Lesson learned , when you go off in the mountains in the winter , chain up first , while you can still move the truck .

Here's a good trick. Keep a couple of pieces of 2x4 or 2x6 about a foot long in your chain box. lay your chains out in front (or back) of the tires. Put your wood crosswise to the chains , underneath them , and in the middle. Drive up on the pieces of wood and put your chains on. Since you are parked on the wood and not on the chains , it makes them a whole bunch easier to install and snug up.



Personally , I prefer the square link chains that are used on graders. They have a good bite and wear evenly.



Chains , never leave home without them

 

[illflem]

I agree whole heartedly that if you're driving on non-maintained roads in the winter you should carry chains. On maintained roads there is little need for them.



My experience in CA when I had to chain up was much like Grinch's. The brand new chains that had been behind my seat for ten years unused wouldn't fit the oversized tires I changed over to five years before. No problem, the army of guys charging to install chains installed rented chains for $30 and a $100 deposit that I got back on the other side of the pass when the chains were returned. They would have even bought my chains that didn't fit from me.

Next time it happened I didn't even bother getting out of the truck, it was well worth $30 to have someone else out in the blizzard dealing with frozen chains and passing trucks throwing slush all over them.

For $30 it's not worth it to me just to bother hauling them around all the time for the one time I might use them.

 

[Shelby Griggs]

I have never had to chain the Ram yet, this is the 3rd winter, however I have a set in the vehicle at all times, just in case. Oregon Law requires this, under certain conditions.



Oregon Chain Requirements



Sometimes I have seen the situation where no amount of traction tires will pass the check point, and either OSP or ODOT is standing there making sure you put the chains on. Nice to not have to backtrack 50 or so miles to buy chains.



One thing many casual trailer pullers (non CDL) don't realize is that drag chains are required on trailers, so be sure to have some chains for your trailer too.



And the best advice I can give is slow down, almost all winter related crashes are caused by excessive speed for the conditions, rather that be 20 MPH or 70 MPH. Must of been about 4 winters ago, I left home for California for a job and between Bend and Klamth Falls, must have passed 10 cars in the ditch + 2 wrecks, packed snow and then the sun came out. Got a bit of melt on top, it was a skating rink. 20 MPH was too fast in that situation.



Shelby

 

[Doubleclutch]

Well, guys... in defense of the Calif. Highway Patrol and their "chains required" policy. Most drivers in CA can't drive in the RAIN much less snow! Watch the news during the first storm of the season. This wasn't meant as a slam on our members, just an observation... first hand. Lots of good info here since I'm also concerned about the chain issues.

Greg

 

[lmills]

I have to agree. With a state as large as CA and they probably need regulations to keep some of the people off the road. Some people just have no place on the road when there is snow on it.



I agree that I would buy a set as insurance. I wouldn't buy cables. I had a friend that worked at a local ski resort that tried them on his 1/2 ton truck. He is a very experienced person with chains and snow. He lived in North Dakota most of his life. Within a matter of a week or two they fell apart.



Another thing to consider is your tire size. The chains will fit different tire sizing to a certain extent. If you go from stock to an over size tire, they might not fit any more. That's a problem I had with my first set.

 

[VicR]

chains and 4x4?

I've never had any experience with a 4x4 so I'm a little out of my depth here, but I had heard that it was crucial to make sure that all 4 wheels on a 4x4 were spinning at the same speed - that's why you have to buy 4 new tires at once for one.



If thats true, how can you only chain up the front wheels of a 4x4? I would think that would cause a lot of tension on the driveline?



I guess if there was enough snow the tires would spin a little to compensate, but what about a situation where the California Highway Patrol forces you to chain up and its either wet pavement or slush? Or even a good hard pack snow? Would there be enough slippage to take the stress off of the drive line?



-Vic

 

[HC]

Originally posted by illflem

I agree whole heartedly that if you're driving on non-maintained roads in the winter you should carry chains. On maintained roads there is little need for them.

So up North, they actually MAINTAIN the roads in winter?



That's an interesting concept...



Illflem, you may have identified the reason behind the Southern "pro chain" trend. I've heard more than one transplanted Yankee marvel at the lack of meaningful maintenance following winter storms down here. Economically, it doesn't make sense for our highway departments to buy any specialized gear for the limited use, and it hardly makes sense to run the local highway department budget into the ground clearing roads that will melt off in a few days anyway. Major arteries get some sand on the bridges and some "road grader" snow plowing; secondary roads get nada. Those of us who don't want to put our lives on hold for 3 to 7 days sometimes have to deal with this.



One of the least experienced "snow and ice" drivers I ever met was from up North; they had never dealt with an unmaintained road after a storm.



Hey dpetre, you sound like another "chain fan", so just how far South is Salcha, AK?

 

[BigMike]

In most places, a 4x4 meets the "chains required" requirement. I bought chains to pull myself out of the mud if I'm off road hunting or something.

 

[QRTRHRS]

Originally posted by Dkevdog

For you guys running chains on the DRW's- do you chain only inside, only outside, or did you get the chains that go over both wheels??



Kev

I have the regular dually chains that go over both wheels. I lay them out on the ground over my plastic blocks with slots for the chain, then back the wheels over the blocks. Takes me five minutes a wheel once I have done it a few times each year.



I had to chain up the motorhome to get up my driveway the day after xmas. That one was a bugger with the wheels set in deep and little clearance.



As far as using them on the truck, I have them to get home if need be. If it's that bad, I won't leave home unless it's an absolute emergency. Cheap insurance I say.

 

[Shelby Griggs]

Re: chains and 4x4?

Originally posted by Vic R

I've never had any experience with a 4x4 so I'm a little out of my depth here, but I had heard that it was crucial to make sure that all 4 wheels on a 4x4 were spinning at the same speed - that's why you have to buy 4 new tires at once for one.



If thats true, how can you only chain up the front wheels of a 4x4? I would think that would cause a lot of tension on the driveline?



I guess if there was enough snow the tires would spin a little to compensate, but what about a situation where the California Highway Patrol forces you to chain up and its either wet pavement or slush? Or even a good hard pack snow? Would there be enough slippage to take the stress off of the drive line?



-Vic

If you only have the chains on for CHP's sake, then I would have them on the rear and be in two wheel drive, that won't cause any hardship on the 4X4 system because it isn't in the power mode. I have chained all 4 before, but that was for off highway use, on the highway I would chain only the rear if it is being required, otherwise I would be in 4 wheel drive without chains.



Shelby

 

[dpetre]

HC

I am 34 miles South of Fairbanks. What is a maintained road? Many in Alaska are only open in the summer. Where I live it may be several hours before a plow comes threw. Last night 6 inches snow I was out this morning at 7 and main highway looked like a goat path. Hell we got the best weather in the world. November 7. 9 earth quake, the river flooded up to my front yard, last week the river tried to flowed again, today 27 degrees, and tomorrow -43. You never know what is going to happen when you live in snow country. I used to think Montana, North Dakota, and Minnesota where cold until I moved here. Snow capital North America... My pick Valdez AK average snow fall 323 inches... most I have seem 670 inches, Cold..... Can say... . Worst with out wind. . Fairbanks -70... Cold and wind... . Delta Junction. . the wind is always blowing there. But no matter where you live winter and fall weather can kill you if you get caught in it. Make sure that you carry safety gear in your vehicle. The life you save may be your own or someone you care for. If the weather gets bad and you do not have to be out in it stay home. Any way that is my . 02 on this subject.

 

[The Grinch]

Shelby Griggs mentioned the drag chains on a trailer... my recent enlightenment allows a bit of clarification on this topic: If a trailer has brakes - it must be chained up to pass a CHP chain enforcement point. If it does NOT have brakes, the tow vehicle - 4X4 or not - must wear chains. Another point made by a different poster - that there are SO many Californians who cannot drive in any form of inclement weather that the CHP must require steps to help other drivers stay out of harms way. It's sad that they must resort to this, because even if you know how to handle the bad conditions, it doesn't mean that 60% to 80% of the rest of the drivers on the road do!

My recent experience in CA has also shown me that the CHP can't trust folks to drive sensibly... once they re-opened the pass (it was closed for nearly 3 hours due to a couple of semi jack-knifes), even though they had a chain-up check point, they put a CHP "Pace car" in front, that led all vehicles down the pass at NOT MORE THAN 25 MPH!

Even with common sense among some drivers, the un-controlled element of the "driving public" should be reason enough to carry chains, and be willing to chain-up if needed.

I was born and raised in Massachusetts, took (and passed) my driver's test on a Friday the 13th with 8' snow banks on both sides of the roads. I grew up driving in the stuff, and NEVER used chains until I moved to WA, where it was required to go over the passes.

Now... regarding the rather snide comment made about Seattle area drivers... because of our close proximity to the mountains and the MANY ski resorts, a lot of folks do carry chains and probably use them when they don't need to. Realize too, that a huge percentage of the population of Western Washington is relocated Californians!

'nuff said!

The Grinch

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

There are some very good points above. They brought to mind some safety and convenience points that I have in the back of my mind most of the time, but may be worth adding/summarizing in this thread:

1. Some of the most dangerous conditions occur after partial thawing, especially if the road is clear. You tend to go to the normal speed and you are in trouble if you hit an icy patch in the shade or on a bridge (no insulation from dirt underneath to keep the road surface temperature up).

2. Try to think ahead and put on chains when they make sense (i. e. deep snow but packed from other vehicles, loose snow or badly side-sloped mountain trail up ahead where sliding off=death). It takes only 5-10 minutes to put them on and attach the rubber tensioners. I lay one out in front of the front wheel, drive halfway across the chain, and pull it up the tire front and back. Then I do the other. If you are stuck already, you have a task of (comparatively) epic proportions ahead of you.

3. Making time is completely out of the picture. Staying alive and eventually getting there are the issues. Coming out of Colorado, we were on dirt "roads," sideslopes into a "ditch" 10 feet down, etc. We put chains only on the front of the Ram, none on the trailer. My hunting partner and I fully agreed that low range first gear (3. 5 mph on the gps) was plenty fast enough for the 8 miles or so before the road became "maintained. "

4. Chains are like insurance, and the cheapest is not what you want. When needed, either has to be the best value.

5. Your vehicle sliding off the road, or unable to progress, is only one concern. The 99 bozos out there are a big concern, and avoiding them can be the biggest problem. You may be going up the mountain just fine, and then a half dozen of them are all over the place blocking you. At that point, expeditious stopping and vigilance are the ways to save yourself and your Ram. Usually you can stop OK uphill [although you don't want to slide back down ]. I'm actually more cautious and tend to go slower downhill because it can be harder to come to a stop in the direction I want.

6. Experience is critical. You gain experience by cautious driving and tending toward "excessive" safety precautions [if indeed that is possible since you can't push the reset button and restart the game if you die]. Soon enough you will learn the limits of your setup without exceeding them so much that you can't recover. If you can't think through your next steps to a successful retrieval from danger or being "stuck", get help instead of taking the big chance that you will make the situation worse with risky moves.

7. There are times when it is better, and almost as fast, to wait until environmental conditions improve, instead of "challenging the storm. "

 

[Shelby Griggs]

Good points Joe. I will second the coming down being the most dangerous. Going up, if you spin out, you are usually just at the end of the forward momentum. Going downhill, if you loose it, it is tough to recover. Just a couple of weeks ago, I came back to Bend from Portland, and was in 4 wheel drive in the snow pack, rolling about 45 MPH or so. Broke out of the forest and pretty much just had wet pavement and even dry in spots. Then while descending the grade into Warm Springs (for those that know the area), I hit some ice. It was night, and hard to tell what was ice and what was wet pavement, little to no snow around. I am about 1/2 way through a left hand turn when bam, I am no longer in control. Not a whole lot you can do when going downhill, off the throttle and in a turn when you break loose. Small steering inputs, and I mean small is about all ya can do. Fortunately after a few tense seconds, things straighted out.



One thing bad about the winter fronts, is that you don't get a very accurate picture of the OAT, so the readings can be misleading, although I find mine to be pretty good above 50 MPH after a couple of miles. I would like to invest in a road temperature gauge.



The other thing I just HATE, is the application of liquid road de-icer. Besides being somewhat corrosive and making a mess of your vehicle, they make the pavement look black and wet all of the time. It is very hard to distinguish between water, ice or de-icer. When it gets to 32° F, I WANT the road to be frozen and to be able to drive accordingly. In the NW at least, the DOT's apply this junk liberally every time they THINK it may snow. YUK!



Shelby