WVO - be careful (thread w/ engine damage inside)

[HoleshotHolset]

This obviously doesn't happen to everyone that tries to run straight WVO - but the pictures are very telling of what could happen nonetheless. I'm not saying this will happen to every diesel that runs WVO, but if you run like this you're more prone to potential damage than converting WVO into biodiesel through transesterification.



This thread from the TDIClub says it all...

WVO no more-My Tragic Greaser Story - TDIClub Forums



There are a lot of variables that could have led to this gent's engine failing - keep all of them in mind if you're looking into running WVO.



Biodiesel / WVO is still very much in its infancy - so these types of growing pains are expected. I'm glad to see so many people experimenting and having a lot of success with renewable fuels that don't support our OPEC friends(?).



Beers,



Matt

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

AN absolutely GREAT thread and pointer, Matt - should be required reading for all would be "Garage/backyard" fuel refiners!



It was fears of scenarios like that, plus full recognition of my own lack of abilities as a "scientific genius" that prevented my own efforts to beat the Arabs and major domestic oil companies at their own game - it's a grand ambition, but be prepared to sacrifice your own engine on the altar of individual exploration into fuel refining if you choose to go that route!



As the guy said, "If you propose to "save" fuel costs by making your own, be prepared to eventually pay it all back in repairs/replacements at some premature early point in the life of your engine" - or words to that effect...



I refuse to abuse my engine with my own clumsy efforts of fuel refining, regardless of my dislike for current fuel costs...

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

I've used both Home Brewed Biodiesel and SVO pretty extensively. I ran Biodiesel for 300,000 miles without any major problems other than some cold weather gelling(which is easily cured by blending diesel fuel with it). However, when I messed with SVO the learning curve was much steeper and much more costly. I eventually abandoned it. I know there are plenty of people out there that are messing around with some pretty good success, but I'll never fool around with it again.

Joe

 

[JFaughn]

The biggest problem is if its not bio-diesel [ transesterification processed / remove tryglicerides ] its not diesel fuel .
I know there are believers out there , but no science , chemists look at the chemical make up , then do not even bother to do studies , look for a a study , a study is not some number of people doing something , its called imperical evidence , math / logic .
Nobody can get WVO/SVO to get certified as fuel .

 

[Forrest Nearing]

very interesting... I wouldn't trust fuel that was only filtered down to 10 micron, and I certainly wouldn't attempt WVO on something that new... I think an old Mercedes or a P=pumped Cummins would survive if you had 2 micron filtration and ran for a while on diesel to warm up and then to flush the system before shut down

 

[cj hall]

filtered to what

so forrest



what is pump diesel filtered to ?



look it up it will scare you. :{



cj hall

 

[Forrest Nearing]

so forrest



what is pump diesel filtered to ?



look it up it will scare you. :{



cj hall

agreed, but pump diesel isn't WVO

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

I pulled the head on my '96 about 18 months ago, after running around 200 gallons of filtered WVO through it. I mixed it with diesel and never did more than about 35% concentration so it was nowhere near 100%, but I didn't heat it. However I only ran this in warm to hot weather. P-pumps don't seem to heat up much or heat the fuel appreciably in normal operation like VP and CP3 rigs do.

Anyway everything looked great when I pulled the head at 386,000 miles. No coking at all, no buildup in the piston bowl or crown, no more than the normal small amount of buildup on the valves.

 

[SHobbs]

Did I see it right? The valves with the gunk are the intakes right? If thats true then how did the goo get there, diesels are direct injected with only the air going past the intake valves, the fuel enters through the injector, correct? Or am I way off here? Could it have been imcomplete combustion, like blow by.

 

[The patriot]

I am by no means a bio expert... heck I havent even tried the stuff.

But what I think is, I wonder if water injection would have helped?

 

[cj hall]

Here this is what might have happend.



What ever caused the damage on the first turbo got to the cylinder bore and scored the wall. then the damage was done. then the wvo started to get in to the oil and blowby was started at this time. if oil samples had been taken this would have showed up.



Blow by is the cause of the build up on the valves they are the intake side and the fuel is never close to them,note the other valves are mostly clean,so when the engine was running the wvo was working just fine



If he was running diesel fuel in this engine the same thing would have happened



The fact that the Second Tubro bit the dust after 1000 miles shoud have got the ball rolling on what is the problem with the intake side of the engine.



the oil changes happened at 10,000 miles this might have been some of the problem with the engine also remember the oil sump in this car is less than 6qts 5. 9 cummins have 12 qts. the oil in my truck gets changed every 3000 miles. turbo's are very hard on oil. small engines running high rpms even worse.



Then he thought bigger injectors would be extra HP will this could be the start of the end of the engine more HP = more blowby and so on the chip he put on might be some of the problem to if it raised the fuel pressure on the injectors.



All in all I dont think the problem was the WVO it just made the problem with the engine come to light a little faster.



This engine was going to blow at some point.



He should have done things a little different but ofcourse hind site is 20/20.



Is WVO in a diesel engine ok ? will it depends is the engine in good shape is the owner ready to invest a lot of time making sure things are ok.



If you dont want to run a different fuel in your diesel thats ok it makes it easy for the ones that will get the oil. I am just going to run what Mr. Diesel ran his on, so does this mean you are burring the different fuel or am I ?



Problems I see are.

NO oil samples taken,to long between oil changes.

on the fuel side this

water in the oil not addressed/filtering not to a five micron or better.



these are only a few things I can think of right off hand.



cj hall

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Looks to me like the accumulated crud on the intake valve/stem was shedding in clumps at various times, and passing thru the cylinders, doing dirty work there, then on out into the exhaust and turbo wheel, where it did more blasting/erosion of the impellers.



As far as I can see, that crud buildup was SPECIFICALLY a WVO based issue, and NOT likely to occur with conventional commercial diesel fuels...

 

[cj hall]

Gary Please

tell us how the intake side of the engine got all gunk on the valve stem this is a TDI style of engine. and if you think the WVO scored the cylinder they why only #4 and not the other ones the intake side of the turbo is shot and this is the second one. the injectors would spray about the same amount of fuel in each hole.



the turbo shelled, scored the cylinder and the rest is history. the veg oil did nothing to cause this problem. I dont think vegoil will take chuncks of the piston off the piston but chuncks of pistons will hurt the turbo right?



take the pictures and show them to any one and ask them what went wrong but dont tell them what fuel it was burning. they will tell you the turbo went south. CCV picked up the Blowby and shoved it thru the intake.

This car was used and I bet you is had a punk kid running it with no air cleaner on it and thats where the damage started, or even worse no air box at all.

Dont blame it on something untill we get the whole story from day one. that will never happen.



cj hall

 

[Rebel Ram]

His problem is obvious. He was running the white letters out instead of in. That has as much to do with his failure as SVO. The only guys saying this is a good WARNING are the ones that have never run oil.

 

[LSchulz]

the turbo shelled, scored the cylinder and the rest is history. the veg oil did nothing to cause this problem. I dont think vegoil ill take chuncks of the piston off the piston but chuncks of pistons will hurt the turbo right?

That was my initial reaction when I first saw someone post this thread on dieselstop. There is no way that burning WVO will cause damage to the compressor wheel on the intake side of the turbo. Running with a bad air filter will. The inlet side of the turbo on my bus is clean as can be, and it's been burning WVO for a few years now.



That said, I'm going to pull the head off the 466 when we get back at the end of the summer because I'm curious to see what it's like in there. It runs great, so we'll see...

 

[cj hall]

LSchulz



please post pictures on this thread, that should clear up this mess.



thanks again



cj hall

 

[SEmerson]

Has anyone looked at coking when useing water/meth. I am hopeing that it will help.

 

[tgordon]

When I first started reading that post the first thing I thought of after he commented how the replacement engine operated compared to the old one was what sort of shape was the old one in when he bought it? I won't even go into the maintenance he did to the engine.



JFaughn, have you ever looked into the process. For somebody like CJ (I will pick on him, easy target) to get a test done he must first get the fuel to the lab, next to impossible to do unless you deliver it by hand. Then the testing is over $3,000. Why would he pay that? And yes I have called and asked about the prices. Besides, SVO I would compare to the biodiesel and I know fuel suppliers who had trouble with the IRS because they consider it veggie oil, not fuel.



Have I ever run WVO, no I am not gutsy enough. I have about 75,000 on commercially available B20 and B100, but now I must another source since we moved.



Troy

 

[DJW]

Regarding Lab. testing of reclaimed waste vegetable oil, just a thought, if one could get an Agricultural College, because vegetable oil is a related farm product, to run tests using currant systems to reclaim oil for vehicle fuel, perhaps it would take the Fear? Danger? or speculation of future engine results out of the, He said, She said, various opinions, etc. at rest. Perhaps set up guide lines for preparation, filtering, testing, and actual programs to avoid problems when used as a fuel. Seems at present many users have a different experience, some good, others not so. Plus all the theories of why engine troubles happened, but nothing concrete so far.

 

[tgordon]

The only way to have gotten anything concrete is to have sample data and/or a teardown before he began using it, hindsight 20/20. I am not familiar enough with turbo failure to say much, but is there a chance he has been shutting down before the turbo has had adequate time to cool and took out the seals?



Is the crankcase on this engine vented into the intake like a gas engine that the blowby would have such an effect on the intake valves?



Juast a couple of thoughts after I thought about it, and I always think better driving a rumbling diesel, 5mph or 75mph doesn't matter.



Troy