Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Yep, Another OIL LEAK ?

[CYauch]

Ok, still new to owning a CTD, and learning more and more every day. I own an '01 2WD QC with only 56, 689 miles on it. I get the oil changed thru the dealership (who have been pretty good up until a few weeks ago. ) I noticed that I had oil 'wet' spots on my towing receiver and bottom of rear bumper. I learned along time ago via an S-10 that i owned that I should look at the rear 'pumpkin', and front seal of the differential. On the Dodge, it is ok and there are no wetspots anywhere on it. I looked at rear brakes, then started to look forward of that. transmission is ok, rear of engine was ok too. Oil Pan had to very small wetspots where it goes over the crossmember, but looked more like a 'dry' wetspot, rather than anything more serious. I then looked at the front of the motor and about had a heart attack! (Speaking relative to looking at the bottom front of the motor and pan... . ->) all oil pan bolts on the front had oil drops forming. Behind the crank pully was wet, 3 bolts back on each side of the oil pan, going from front to rear had oil drops. Container that holds 'slobber' tube was about as wet as it could get. Fan, and front face of motor was wet. Took it to dodge, they then informed me about the slobber tube, and the container, then told me that I needed to remind whoever was changing the oil that they have to check that container and empty it. At this time, I promptly informed THEM that they are the only ones who do maintenance on my truck! :-{}



They changed the oil, emptied the container, and told me that my 'leak' has been fixed. I have since cleaned the front of the motor, oil pan, etc. with a pressure washer. This weekend I went to LaPlace, La. and noticed oil residue in the same places, so I washed again before making the trip there and back. Upon return, I noticed that there is once again oil along the seal where the pan meets the block (see pic #8), as well as behind the crank pulley on a piece of metal that seems to bolt to the front of the motor (see pic # 9)



I have tightend the bolts that hold the oil pan to specs (all were a little loose), but I really do no think that the seal is bad. I think that the oil on seal on the front of the pan is coming from above, but have no clue where to look, not that i can really see in there. With less than 57,000 miles on it, I am really suprised to see an oil leak period, but being new to diesels, I had no idea that the CTD even had a 'slobber' tube so i am wondering if I should even be alarmed by this. When I see oil, I panick. Differential fluid, transmission fluid, etc, I can handle with a few pills, but oil... ... ... . well, time to break out the defibulator (sp?). Any ideas and or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. It is going back to them in 2 days to diagnose the problem, and to also drain a little oil from the pan seeing that they have the oil level about 3/4 above the safe mark. I am wondering if I should take it to another dealership, but since I live in rural Mississippi, I really dont have a choice. I do hope that it is fixed prior to the bog in May... . only live an hour and a half away. Thanks.



The link to view the pics that I took is



http://myweb.cableone.net/cyauch/pics.htm

 

[skintback]

dodge just paid of my new oil pan on my 02'. it took me about 5

trips to the sealership before they could find my leak. the pan had about 3/8" crack in it.

 

[skintback]

also check the sealin the middle of power steering pump and the vac. pump.

 

[CYauch]

Thanks. Up until today, I was thinking that it was the oil pan and/or seal. But when I saw the oil drop forming behind the crank pulley, I began to think that maybe it is something else. I mean, I have spots on the fan where oil has been slung, and, excuse me for not being mechanically savy, the big bar that runs from frame rail to frame rail on the forward most part of the frame ( i think that would be called a stabilzer bar?) even has wet spots where it looks like oil has hit, then run down. And I am thinking that it is oil cause I have washed all the previous oil/dirt/grime off, then wiped my finger across the new spots.



But after today, I am now wondering if the leak is further up, and just happens to collect where the pan meets the block, as I found an oil drop forming in pic #9. I ran my finger behind the crank pulley and came up dirty, but dry. I figured that if airflow was blowing the oil from the pan seal up, some would collect on the back of the crank pulley, but I dunno.

 

[CYauch]

posted while I was responding. Ok, will take a look again. Looking from the bottom of the block, straight up the front, the face of the block is dry. With a good light, I did not see any oil spots on either side of the block either, top or bottom.

 

[BigMike]

Any oil leak should be covered by your warranty. Anything with engine oil is part of the powertrain. I had to replace my oil pan at about 60,000 miles. Leaked around the plug. Otherwise, no leaks. Good luck.

 

[Rogue Ram]

Your leak sounds exactly like mine from last week... ..... it may be the seal that was referred to on or around the ps pump. Mine sprayed that crap all over the engine compartment in the same manner you describe.



RR

 

[Chipstien]

Make sure to clean any oil off the radiator and intercooler. It can really cut on efficiency.

 

[CYauch]

Chip, funny you should mention that. I have noticed that my temps are higher than normal, but still at or below 190. Usually, I seem to remember my temps running a little higher than halfway between 140 and 190 unless I am on the interstate making a run. But as of late, the needle is on or just below 190. When I cleaned the engine prior to the run to Lousianna, I did spray the front of the radiator, but didn't even think to give the back side a good cleaning. Thanks.

 

[Willys]

Is the oil coming directly from behind the fan hub on the front of the engine? have you had the dowel pin inside the timing case replace? from one of the pics, it looks as though the case has been replaced (it's unpainted alumium, right? they come from the factory painted black) my dads truck had the same problem and after many times of pressurewashing and inspecting, he discovered after removing the fan hub that the case wasn't just cracked, but broken! the dowel pin in the upper position of the timing case had backed out, truck the gears, and busted the timing case wide open.



I don't know what's wrong with your truck, but from the looks of it, the case HAS been replace, but maybe someone failed to properly install the seals. (the crankshaft seal is a real bear to work with too. if it gets ANY oil on it during install, it wont seal either. hope this helps

 

[CYauch]

Thanks. Got the truck back today. Dropped it off Weds, and they were unable to find exeactly where the leak was cause it was basically 'weeping' oil rather than just plain blowing it out. They dropped some dye in and I made a run in it yesterday. Dropped it off this morning and was called and told that it was the crank (or cam?) seal that was leaking. I say the cam cause that it what I thought I heard the tech say, and my wife thought she heard that too



(uh, while there, we were looking at the new '04 Dually with the updated engine... . something about it has a little more HP and torque that the one that was put out last year, still a 3rd gen. engine. Was this guy giving me the straight info, or BS'ing me? He said that is why they haven't had a diesel on their lot for a month or two, they were waiting to get the trucks with the updated engine. )



Back to the seal, not sure how long it is supposed to take to fix, but was completed late this evening, and it appeared that they guy working on it was doing the work from the top: It wasn't on a lift. Doesn't seem to leak at the moment, but then again, I didn't notice the leak before until after a few days. I am gonna make sure that the bottom is clean then watch over the next week to see if the oil still forms.



As for the unpainted surface, unless someone stole the truck after i bought it, blew the engine and had the repair work done while I was sleeping, I dunno how that could have been replaced with an unpainted one. I bought the trucck 2 years ago and it only had 17,000 on the odometer. I guess that its possible that the person before me could have killed the engine and was replaced, but I dunno. Anyone know how I could check this?

 

[SRadke]

First, they switched to the new 325hp/600lbft torque engine in the middle of 04 so the salesman was right on there.



Now, the leak. The cam does not have a front seal but the crank does. The crank seal would be replaced from above in a few hours by a good tech.



Your leak sounds suspiciously like a KDP but as mentioned above your case appears to have been replaced. This picture clearly shows and unpainted case with what looks like orange silicone sealing it to the block and pan.



-Scott

 

[CYauch]

I see. I see the orange silicon to the right, but that is an orange seal for the oil pan. I take it then that the oil pan seal has been replaced too? And what exactly is a KDP? And one last thing, I am assuming that this KDP thing that has been replaced was done by a dealer, or Cummins Tech. How can I find out when, where, why, etc this work was done? I know that it was sold in Jackson, MS, and ended up in Slidell, LA where I bought it. Where that work was done I have no idea. Thanks.

 

[SRadke]

KDP=Killer Dowel Pin. Read about it here. Despite what this page says it can happen on models as late as 01.



The pan gasket doesn't necessarily need to be replace to do the fix. If you are cautious and clean things up well the case can be put on with silicone and you never have to remove the pan. It is only the front of the pan that attaches to the timing case. I am curious to know if what is in the picture is actually silicone or an orange gasket.



The timing case could have been replaced by a dealer or Cummins Tech. Dealer is most likely if the truck was new enough to have been under warrantee. It is also possible it was replaced by a private party. I have no idea how you would determine what, if any repairs were made. Carfax report maybe? I don't know.



-Scott

 

[B9Mile]

Any Dodge dealer should be able to run your VIN # in their computer and tell you what, if any, warranty work has been done on the truck.



A leaky front crank seal isn't anything real serious to worry about. They can be easily replaced without damaging something else on the engine while doing the repair.





Edit:

After giving this a little more thought, I think you just have the misfortune of having a front seal that started leaking. Its rare, but it happens.



We all know that with each successive model year, DC finds new ways to save a buck here and there. The 12 valve timing gear case covers had a fiber sealing gasket. My 98. 5 ISB came with an RTV sealant instead of this gasket.



-- By the way, I used a '98 12-valve cover gasket when I reassembled everything after the tab job. --



When I tabbed my dowel pin, I noticed there was a gasket between the block and the gear case. As others have commented, your timing gear case appears to have an orange RTV type sealant between it and the block. The oil pan also has this sealant.



Here is a TSB which mentions an RTV sealant for the oil pan seal. Does anyone know what color the approved Mopar sealant is? The RTV on my timing gear case cover was gray.





http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2001/09-006-01.htm



"Repeat oil pan gasket leaks can occur on 24 Valve Diesels if the gasket is applied without the use of Mopar Silicon Rubber Adhesive (RTV) Sealant (PN 04883971). "





Maybe DC and Cummins started using the orange RTV as a sealant behind the timing gear case as a cost cutting measure and you were just one of the unlucky ones that has had a front seal fail.

 

[SRadke]

There are a TON of diffrent RTV type sealants out there in various colors. Some don't work well, others work great. I would in no way say that the orange stuff in question won't work, it may be far superior to the DC approved stuff..... but it may be worse. Personally I uses some stuff made by Toyota and it's the best I've found. It happens to be black.



I hope this is as simple as a front crank seal.



-Scott

 

[CYauch]

Just got off the phone with the local dealer, the dealer that I bought the truck from in Slidell, LA, and the original dealer that first sold the vehicle. All told me the following:



" no warranty work was done on that particular engine other than what was entered in the system last week" when I dropped it off to have that seal replaced. I was then told that if warranty work was done, either it was done privately (by the original owner) or was done at an authorized Cummins place of business etc, etc, etc. Now, I explained about the unpainted part as well as the color of the oil pan seal, and the RTV used elsewhere. I was promptly told by my local dealer that as long as the truck is under warranty, they will continue to work and repair any damage covered regardless; the other 2 places would not say this. So, I guess that I will let it go for now, and hope that nothing major happens after the warranty. In addition, the local dealer also stated that according to my VIN #, the TSB regarding the KPD does not apply.



Being rather new to the Dodge/Cummins family, this is the first that I have heard about being able to attach recalls/notices to VIN's and distributing it among the dealerships. Is he feeding me a line of BS? And if not, is there a place where I can enter the VIn myself and see what applies? Thanks.

 

[SRadke]

The VIN will tell them exactly when the vehicle was made. The KDP problem was corrected in the middle of 01 so yours was probably made in the latter half. Sounds like you're in good shape.



-Scott

 

[B9Mile]

This is the only place I know of that has a list as well as a text version of TSB-s and recalls, etc. , available for free viewing.

http://dodgeram.info/tsb/index.html



You can always subscribe to All Data and get their information. I don't know of any place, other than a dealer, where you can run your VIN # to get specific info.



You might try a dealer in another town sometime when you are traveling. As a side note, there have been some members here that have had their engine warranty voided for "tampering" with the fuel system via performance upgrades.



A dealer can enter information about your vehicle into the DC computer system. If they decide you have tampered with your engine control systems, your warranty can be voided, with appropriate info entered into the database. Then any other DC dealer will have access to this info.



Cummins most likely didn't do any warranty work on your engine. If they did, it would take an authorization from a dealer for DC to pay Cummns for the warranty work. That is rare.



I forgot to mention earlier that my timing gear case is unpainted. I haven't seen a case on a Dodge application that has been painted. On industrial applications, this may be a different story.



Its quite a job to remove the oilpan on one of these engines. I doubt if the original owner would fork over the $$ to have that done.



It looks like the RTV sealing the oilpan and the timing gear case are the same color, so I would think these areas are original engine assembly seals.



You can stop in at a Cummins place and see if they list a gasket for the timing gear case/engine block seal. If not, then they assembled your engine with RTV as a sealant.



I think you are OK, and you just had the misfortune to have a crank seal fail.

 

[Timbeaux38]

I just had a fron crank seal replaced on mine- my drain plug is still leaking- is there supposed to be a rubber gromet inside the pan?