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[Ron Bissett]

Went out to start truck dead , checked both batteries and was at zero volts , Put them on chargers ,and they seem to be charging up now . They were so low did not have a place to start checking , checked the one forty fuse OK and if the batteries come up and have a charge strongenough to turn the motor over and see if it will statr then I ll check the charging system . Did not see any left on light or switch ,Just run down batteries . They are old and it could be they gave up . Will start the checking and post what I find . Any suggestions ? Other than new batteries until I find out what wrong. Ron Bissett in Metro Louisville KY

 

[Ron Bissett]

Originally posted by Ron Bissett

Went out to start truck dead , checked both batteries and was at zero volts , Put them on chargers ,and they seem to be charging up now . They were so low did not have a place to start checking , checked the one forty fuse OK and if the batteries come up and have a charge strongenough to turn the motor over and see if it will statr then I ll check the charging system . Did not see any left on light or switch ,Just run down batteries . They are old and it could be they gave up . Will start the checking and post what I find . Any suggestions ? Other than new batteries until I find out what wrong. Ron Bissett in Metro Louisville KY

Just tried to charge the battries but they will not charge up so I will get a new pair . I did not know that the stores on line do not post battries (secret) I guess ,will go shopping for best deal ,I know most are made by the same factory and diffrent case put on them so I will keep a look out for a bargin. Ron Bissett in metro Louisville KY

 

[rrausch]

I got Optima Red Tops at Costco.

 

[John - K5AWO]

your batteries sulfated and discharged internally. The fate of every lead acid battery made..... only time until it happens.

 

[Ron Bissett]

Originally posted by John - K5AWO

your batteries sulfated and discharged internally. The fate of every lead acid battery made..... only time until it happens.

John you are correct I popped the top just to look and the plates are covered 90% with white looking crud must be the sulfide you stated above . Thanks for your information . Ron Bissett in Metro Louisville KY

 

[rweis]

There are some battery chargers that advertise they DEsulfate batteries. Anyone had any luck with these?, and how often did you do that?, 1 / yr, 2 / yr, ???



Bob Weis

 

[GerryDrake]

I have a solargizer on my trailer batteries, but suspect the only way I will know whether it works is when at 10 years I haven't had to replace my batteries... . ???



Also, if you have Costco's in your area, their Kirkland brand battery is pretty inexpensive, but a few years ago when I did the leg work, they were rated equal to the top of the line DieHard from Sears... . as I recall, they were a little under $50 while the DieHard Gold was $80. .

 

[John - K5AWO]

Now THAT is good info. Always a believer in keeping the cash in MY pocket.



The sulphate action comes from being over-charged over extended times. Automotive regulators are set for ~14. 4 volts at cool temperatures so that a high current can be pushed into the battery to replace the starting current used.



At operating temperatures, most of them will reduce the charging voltage to ~13. 6 volts. At the temps experienced under the closed hoods, the battery still goes through the gassing phase.



I am not a chemist but I have read this does something that pulls sulphites out of the grid structures and deposits it on the surfaces of the grids not unlike boiling water leaves solids in the bottom of the pan. This eventually crosses over the plates and hence the discharge current begins.



Any chemists out there that will correct this explanation, or just tell us what is really happening?

 

[rkressg]

John - K5AWO

I am not a chemist but I have read this does something that pulls sulphites out of the grid structures and deposits it on the surfaces of the grids not unlike boiling water leaves solids in the bottom of the pan. This eventually crosses over the plates and hence the discharge current begins.

I think this will answer the question..... :{



How a battery works, long...

Lead Storage Battery

In this battery, lead serves as the anode, and lead coated with lead dioxide serves as the cathode. Both electrodes dip onto an electrolyte solution of sulfuric acid. The reactions are as follows:



Anode reaction: Pb + HSO4- ---> PbSO4 + H+ + 2e-

Cathode reaction: PbO2 + HSO4- + 3H+ + 2e- ---> PbSO4 + 2H20

-----------------

Cell Reaction: Pb(s) + PbO2(s) + 2H+(aq) + 2HSO4-(aq) ---> 2PbSO4(s) + 2H2O(l)



A typical auto lead storage battery has six cells connected in series. Each cell has multiple electrodes in the form of grids and produces approximately 2v, giving the total charge of ~= 12. 0v. In this reaction, the sulfuric acid is consumed as the battery discharges, producing lead sulfate, hydrogen, and 2 electrons, thus lowering the density of the electrolyte solution from the initial value of about 1. 28 g/cm^3 to some lower value, dependant upon the resultant charge. A fully discharged battery will have an electrolyte solution density around 1. 00 g/cm^3, which is the density of H2O(l)



This is how the condition of a battery can be measured. The floating green ball has a respective density slightly less to that of a fully charged battery. When the charge cells in the battery drops, the density of the aqueous solution drops. The solution no longer has sufficient density to float the ball, and the ball sinks, giving the appearance of a black image in the inspection hole.



The lead sulfate formed in the cell reaction during discharge adheres (though the process of electrolysis) to the grid surfaces of the electrodes. The battery is recharged by forcing current through the battery in the opposite direction to reverse the cell reaction. In theory, a lead acid battery can be charged an infinite number of times.



But... .

Over time, this process becomes weakened and not an entire reversal of the reaction occurs, thus leaving some lead sulfate on the grid surfaces. This process can be calculated by finding the equilibrium constant for the reaction. This is referred to as K.



K...

This gets deep. Taking the cell reaction: Pb + PbO2 + 2H+ + 2HSO4- ---> 2PbSO4 + 2H2O... .

K would become.....



[PbSO4]^2 [H2O]^2

K=---------------------------------------

[Pb] [PbO2] [H+]^2 [HSO4-]^2



Substitute the Molarity (I do not have these numbers memorized) and do the simple math. This resultant number will tell you how efficient the reaction will be for a relevant temperature. This process is known as the Haber Process.



The reaction written in the reverse order leads to the equilibrium expression:



[Pb] [PbO2] [H+]^2 [HSO4-]^2

K'=---------------------------------------

[PbSO4]^2 [H2O]^2



We can easily see that K and K' are reciprocals of each other. Therefore:



[Pb] [PbO2] [H+]^2 [HSO4-]^2 1

K'=--------------------------------------- = --

[PbSO4]^2 [H2O]^2 K



At this point, we can use the law of Mass reduction: Oo.



[PbSO4]^2 [H2O]^2

K"=------------------------------------------------ =

[Pb]^(1/2) [PbO2]^(1/2) [H+] [HSO4-]



| [ [PbSO4]^4 [H2O]^2]^4 | ^(1/2)

| --------------------------------- |

| [PbSO4]^2 [H2O]^2 |





Therefore...

= K" = K^(1/2)



=Knew = (Koriginal)^n, where n = #of occurrences of reaction.



This all means that the reaction is never 100% efficient, and the process charging process will eventually reach some stopping point because of lead sulfate build up on the cell grid. No more charging cycles will occur, because the solution will no longer support reverse separation.



The road jarring of the battery during driving can knock the lead sulfate off the grid, where it collects on the bottom of the batter. If enough collects in the bottom of the battery, it will short out the grid surfaces, resulting in a dead cell. Each dead cell reduces the battery capacity by ~= 2v.

As we see, the batteries usefulness can quickly diminish.



In the end, it is usually not the charging/discharging that will kill a lead/acid battery, but jarring the battery on the road which kills.



Also...

Traditional storage require periodic "topping off" of distilled water in the electrolyte solution. This solution is depleted by the electrolysis that accompanies the charging process. This is the:

Anode reaction: Pb + HSO4- ---> PbSO4 + H+ + 2e-

Sulfuric acid dissociating and producing hydrogen ions. Very flammable.

The sealed types of batteries use an electrode made of an alloy of calcium and lead that inhibits the electrolysis of water, Yea Right . Therefore, these types of batteries require no additional water.

These batteries will eventually boil out the electrolyte solution, and require more H2O(l).



The use of non-distilled water will cause chemical side-reactions accelerating the failure of the battery.



NOTE. .

Most of this information is coming from my memory of chemistry, so I do believe it to be correct. It has been al long time, so there might be a mistake with the chemical reaction of the anode and cathode.



Just my $0. 02

-Rich

 

[Ron Bissett]

Originally posted by rkressg

I think this will answer the question..... :{



How a battery works, long...

Lead Storage Battery

In this battery, lead serves as the anode, and lead coated with lead dioxide serves as the cathode. Both electrodes dip onto an electrolyte solution of sulfuric acid. The reactions are as follows:



Anode reaction: Pb + HSO4- ---> PbSO4 + H+ + 2e-

Cathode reaction: PbO2 + HSO4- + 3H+ + 2e- ---> PbSO4 + 2H20

-----------------

Cell Reaction: Pb(s) + PbO2(s) + 2H+(aq) + 2HSO4-(aq) ---> 2PbSO4(s) + 2H2O(l)



A typical auto lead storage battery has six cells connected in series. Each cell has multiple electrodes in the form of grids and produces approximately 2v, giving the total charge of ~= 12. 0v. In this reaction, the sulfuric acid is consumed as the battery discharges, producing lead sulfate, hydrogen, and 2 electrons, thus lowering the density of the electrolyte solution from the initial value of about 1. 28 g/cm^3 to some lower value, dependant upon the resultant charge. A fully discharged battery will have an electrolyte solution density around 1. 00 g/cm^3, which is the density of H2O(l)



This is how the condition of a battery can be measured. The floating green ball has a respective density slightly less to that of a fully charged battery. When the charge cells in the battery drops, the density of the aqueous solution drops. The solution no longer has sufficient density to float the ball, and the ball sinks, giving the appearance of a black image in the inspection hole.



The lead sulfate formed in the cell reaction during discharge adheres (though the process of electrolysis) to the grid surfaces of the electrodes. The battery is recharged by forcing current through the battery in the opposite direction to reverse the cell reaction. In theory, a lead acid battery can be charged an infinite number of times.



But... .

Over time, this process becomes weakened and not an entire reversal of the reaction occurs, thus leaving some lead sulfate on the grid surfaces. This process can be calculated by finding the equilibrium constant for the reaction. This is referred to as K.



K...

This gets deep. Taking the cell reaction: Pb + PbO2 + 2H+ + 2HSO4- ---> 2PbSO4 + 2H2O... .

K would become.....



[PbSO4]^2 [H2O]^2

K=---------------------------------------

[Pb] [PbO2] [H+]^2 [HSO4-]^2



Substitute the Molarity (I do not have these numbers memorized) and do the simple math. This resultant number will tell you how efficient the reaction will be for a relevant temperature. This process is known as the Haber Process.



The reaction written in the reverse order leads to the equilibrium expression:



[Pb] [PbO2] [H+]^2 [HSO4-]^2

K'=---------------------------------------

[PbSO4]^2 [H2O]^2



We can easily see that K and K' are reciprocals of each other. Therefore:



[Pb] [PbO2] [H+]^2 [HSO4-]^2 1

K'=--------------------------------------- = --

[PbSO4]^2 [H2O]^2 K



At this point, we can use the law of Mass reduction: Oo.



[PbSO4]^2 [H2O]^2

K"=------------------------------------------------ =

[Pb]^(1/2) [PbO2]^(1/2) [H+] [HSO4-]



| [ [PbSO4]^4 [H2O]^2]^4 | ^(1/2)

| --------------------------------- |

| [PbSO4]^2 [H2O]^2 |





Therefore...

= K" = K^(1/2)



=Knew = (Koriginal)^n, where n = #of occurrences of reaction.



This all means that the reaction is never 100% efficient, and the process charging process will eventually reach some stopping point because of lead sulfate build up on the cell grid. No more charging cycles will occur, because the solution will no longer support reverse separation.



The road jarring of the battery during driving can knock the lead sulfate off the grid, where it collects on the bottom of the batter. If enough collects in the bottom of the battery, it will short out the grid surfaces, resulting in a dead cell. Each dead cell reduces the battery capacity by ~= 2v.

As we see, the batteries usefulness can quickly diminish.



In the end, it is usually not the charging/discharging that will kill a lead/acid battery, but jarring the battery on the road which kills.



Also...

Traditional storage require periodic "topping off" of distilled water in the electrolyte solution. This solution is depleted by the electrolysis that accompanies the charging process. This is the:

Anode reaction: Pb + HSO4- ---> PbSO4 + H+ + 2e-

Sulfuric acid dissociating and producing hydrogen ions. Very flammable.

The sealed types of batteries use an electrode made of an alloy of calcium and lead that inhibits the electrolysis of water, Yea Right . Therefore, these types of batteries require no additional water.

These batteries will eventually boil out the electrolyte solution, and require more H2O(l).



The use of non-distilled water will cause chemical side-reactions accelerating the failure of the battery.



NOTE. .

Most of this information is coming from my memory of chemistry, so I do believe it to be correct. It has been al long time, so there might be a mistake with the chemical reaction of the anode and cathode.



Just my $0. 02

-Rich

Thanks for you insight I could not say that I understand all the chemical math but could see you know how it works and have given me a insight to it ,I feel better knowing I did right getting new battries from Wally world with three year new battry if they should fail. Again thanks and some others that know chemical stuff will no doupt add to our knowlage . Ron Bissett In Metro Louisville ,on the road again.

 

[rkressg]

I am sorry if I go over the deep end sometimes, it is the engineer in me.



All that means is, a battery will usually last between 3-5 years, dependent upon the average outside temperature. The warmer the climate, usually the shorter the life.



But again, that is no guarantee.

-Rich

 

[Bill Lins]

Ok, Rich- another one. How do gel calls (Optimas, etc. ) differ chemically? Do they sulphate like the liquid acid types? Can they "boil out the electrolyte" also?

 

[rkressg]

I hope this helps, but I am not sure...



I will give it a try and explain Dry Cell batteries. I am not as familiar with these types, but here is a quick shot. Again, this is stretching my memory almost 4 years.



The chemistry of a dry cell is a little more complex, but I will try and explain a simple acid version of the typical 1. 5v. (AAA - D cell)battery. Again, in theory, the resultant products of the "sulfating" process adhere to the electrodes, therefore, the batteries can be recharged an indefinite number of times. But again, this is only true on paper. In reality, dry-cell batteries will eventually bow-down to road-abuse and die just like a lead-acid battery, it just might take a little longer. Also, not all dry-cell batteries can be recharged. I do not believe the two listed below can be recharged, but again, I am not sure. I am sure if you forced enough reverse current into the cell, it would take some kind of a charge of course, it might blow up also. Oo.



The number one difference chemically, the dry-cell is "dry" inside. Instead of the anode and cathode being suspended in an aqueous (electrolytic) solution (such as sulfuric acid), they are suspended in some type of moist paste. This allows for the battery to operate in virtually any position, with out worry of spilling any acid.



I am not certain if the Optima Redtop is an acid or an alkaline (probably alkaline because they last longer) battery, so I will give a quick example of both.



Acid...

The battery consists of a simple zinc inner case (the part directly under the wrapper), the anode, and a carbon rod (the center positive post) in contact with a moist paste of manganese dioxide (Mn02) and Ammonium Chloride (NH4Cl) acting as the cathode. Their respective half-reactions are as follows:



Anode: Zn ---> Zn2+ + 2e-

Cathode: 2(NH4+) + 2(Mn02) + 2e- ---> Mn2O3 + 2(NH3) + H2O



In this example, The Ammonium (NH4+) donates the Hydrogen (H+) ion acting as the week acid. This cell should produce about . 75v. at about 75 degrees



Alkaline...

Anode: Zn + 2OH- ---> ZnO + H20 + 2e-

Cathode: 2(MnO2) + H20 + 2e- ---> Mn2O3 + 2(OH-)



In this example, the Ammonium Chloride (NH4Cl) is replaced with either Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) or Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH). It does not matter which one, as long as there is an Hydroxide (OH-) ion in there. This cell should produce about 1. 5v. at about 75 degrees.



The alkaline dry cell last longer, because the Zinc (Zn) anode corrodes more slowly under basic conditions than under acidic conditions.



Probably the most common dry-cell battery is that of the alkaline based nickel-cadmium battery found in just about every cell phone in the world. You might also see Mercury, Silver, Magnesium, and other metal hydroxide based batteries in use.



Sulfate...

Technically, the example above can not sulfate, because there is no sulfur (sulfuric acid) in the reaction, I guess you could call it "ammoniumate" in the acid example, and "hydroxiate" in the alkaline example. I am not exactly sure what a dry-cell battery's "sulfation" process is, but I am sure it has a similar to that of a lead-acid battery.



Electrolyte...

A dry-cell can not "boil out the electrolyte" but, as mentioned above, the anode and cathode are separated by a moist paste, providing the "salt-bridge". If this paste were to dry out in the above example, the cell would cease to operate.



Salt Bridge???

A salt bridge is defined as an electrolyte that connects the two different compartments (parts) of a galvanic cell (battery), thus allowing an ion flow without mixing the two different solutions.

This provides the back-side connection between the anode and cathode, allowing current to flow through the cell when the circuit is closed.



Just my $0. 02

-Rich

P. S. I am half asleep while writing this, so please excuse any typo's or idiot mistakes

 

[rkressg]

One other thing, I do not think I explained what an aqueous(aq) solution is.



What happens is, the junk in the pipes, dirt, minerals, ect... become dissolved into the water. Water acts as the dissolving medium/solution. Thus, producing an aqueous solution.



An aqueous solution is a fluid that is not pure water. Pure distilled water is considered a liquid. It can be written as H2O(l). Because there are no free ions in pure water, it will not conduct electricity. The water that comes out of the tap in your house [H20(aq)] is an aqueous solution, because it is not pure water. It contains both hetero-genius and homo-genius particles in solution. This means there is other "stuff" in the water. It will conduct electricity.



The conductivity of the aqueous solution depends upon exactly what it is made of. If the solution contains either a strong acid or strong base, the solution will conduct well. If the solution contains a weak acid or weak base, the solution will conduct poorly. If the solution contains a non-electrolyte such as sugar, it will not conduct electricity. The stronger something is, the more the ions dissociate.

 

[Bill Lins]

Thanks!

 

[Mick2500]

Originally posted by Bill Lins

Ok, Rich- another one. How do gel calls (Optimas, etc. ) differ chemically? Do they sulphate like the liquid acid types? Can they "boil out the electrolyte" also?

Bill,

I think you have the Optima confused with flashlight batteries. The Odyssey and Optima batteries are AGM and not really a Dry Cell "Gel" battery. I've switched to AGM batteries in all my motorcycles but stilll on my original 2000 Factory batteries in my truck.

From Optima's site:

An absorbent glass mat, alternating with the layers of lead, holds electrolyte in contact with the OPTIMA'S greater lead surface area. This laminated construction provides far more active surface area in the OPTIMA. It also supports a thicker layer of plate paste, for prolonged service life — typically half again to twice the life of conventional batteries. This technology is called "AGM" for "Absorbed Glass Mat" and it is a major advance in battery design.



HTH,

Mick

 

[rweis]

If the "wet cell" battery WILL be damaged over time due to the road vibrations etc and the deposits in the bottom of the cell, how does that effect the AGM's?



The glass mats theoritically can run in any position.



What is their downfall?



Their $$ is generally 2x or 3x (Sears Gold $80, Kirkland $50, but AGM Optima $160). If their life span is not 2x or 3x then the payback of usefull life does not equal out to cost.



I'm starting to get the idea that the lower end battery might be the better buy of $$ per life span. Might mean more maintenance though, ie a convenience factor.



Just courious.



Bob Weis

 

[Loren]

Now I remember why I didn't like chemistry in school.



A few posts ago Bob Weis asked about the chargers or battery conditioners that claim to de-sulfate batteries. I have a couple of them and most of what I can say about them is guesswork.



Without running a scientific test with a control group (that doesn't get the treatment), it's hard to say whether or not they work. My experience so far has been positive.



Most, but not all, of my vehicles have been converted to Optima batteries. (Bob - I think the only downside to Optimas is their cost. ) I have been treating all my lead-acid batteries, including the Optimas with the de-sulfating conditioner about every two months or so. During the winter (Indiana), I try to give the batteries extra care, and additional treatments -- perhaps once a month. I leave the conditioner on the battery for about a day or two when I use it.



The first conditioner I bought was a BatteryMinder. It's small, and is good as a conditioner for batteries that are not in service. Available at www.vdcelectronics.com. I have used it for several years. It will de-sulfate a battery during a charge as well as during a discharge. Apparently there is a difference in what happens depending upon whether the battery is charging or discharging.



My newer conditioner is included as a feature on my Vector battery charger. I bought this item mostly as a charger, but it came with the de-sulfation feature. It is a more powerful de-sulphator than the BatteryMinder, but it only works while the battery is charging. See it here: www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/B00009RB0T/abusinessresourc/103-6181693-4499857



Since I bought my BatteryMinder, about three years ago, I have not had a battery go bad. However, three years ago most of my batteries were fairly new.



The only evidence I have that these things work is my motorcycle battery. This spring it failed to hold a charge. I had failed to condition it during the winter as I shoud have. It would accept a short charge, but a small load would cause it to go dead within a few hours. Simply charging the battery didn't help. I conditioned it several times with the BatteryMinder and got a slight improvement.



The Vector battery charger instructions advise NOT to use the desulfator on smaller batteries, but I figured I had nothing to lose, since the battery was a goner anyway. I conditioned it with the Vector charger.



That battery is now good. It holds a charge. It costs about $75 from J. C. Whitney (the cheapest source I've found for this battery). If I have extended its life by a year or two with my de-sulfators, I have helped pay for them.



In short, the de-sulfators seem to have worked on the one battery I own that needed it.



Loren

 

[John - K5AWO]

Rich and Mick;



Many thanks for the education on batteries. I also did poorly in chemistry. That was a time in life when studying was a poorly enforced habit.