You should read this

[DRR-24V]

Max,

You don't even have a clue what you are talking about. You are not going to blind the Officer with any contortions of the rear view mirror. Twice the guy's in my CHP office have approached on the right side of a vehicle and observed the Driver holding a handgun in his right hand alongside his leg and looking to his left for the Officer. ! What do you think happened? The approach is up to the Officer. (Right or Left side depending on GUT feelings) The only way to survive out there is with training and GUT FEELINGS. I would never worry about hurting some guy's feelings shining the spotlight on the rear view mirror. Who Cares? The important thing is getting home at night. !

 

[Sled Puller]

We are all criminals evidently in "their"eyes.

Guilty until proven innocent, the American way.



Us vs, them! That is the way it is, and noone is doing anything to change it, just make it worse.



Instead of blinding people for Officer safety, maybe we knock them out with gas so nobody will get hurt!



Sacrifice freedom for safety!





BTW, My Dad was a cop, and so are several of my friends.

 

[merryman]

well, having been out "experienced" and out "knowledged" about courts, cops, and forfietures, I'm dropping out of the discussion, but I am still going to call for a Police Officer when I am really in a bind---not someone they are picking on.



Vaughn

 

[Sled Puller]

After reading this discussion, does any one wonder why Congress gets nothing done?

 

[DRR-24V]

Well, You gotta admit, It was an interesting thread. I'm out of here.

 

[Bigsaint]

Max, I do see your point but I don't think you understand mine. We are not trying to win the hearts and minds of the motoring public when we stop them. We use tactics, such as the spotlight, to help to survive the encounter, not make friends. In my experience, I cannot remember one motorist contact that complained about the use of the spotlight and that's alot of stops in 14 years. Not one that I can recall. If the stop is going to turn violent, it's going to turn violent regardless of what I do. In fact, if I happen to stop, let's say, a carload of bankrobbers, for aguements sake. Let's also assume that I have no idea that they are wanted, which is a real safe assumption because, if I knew they were wanted, the tactics employed to remove them would make you think of the spotlight as a real kind gesture (it's called a felony stop). Okay, so I stop this car load of bankrobbers that I think is just a couple of guys out for a ride, who had the misfortune to commit a M. V. offense in my presence. Now, I have to approachs to use, yours, the less offense, no spotlight, walk right up on the drivers side door and goodevening to all approach, which will get me killed, or the professional and tactically correct approach using the spotlight and take down lights, exiting from my vehicle and perhaps approaching their vehicle on the passenger side. I have a tendancy to believe that this approach is going to help to extend my life expectancy by at least several minutes, perhaps years. Here's why... if they are going to shoot me, they know that as soon as I stop them. I seriously doubt one of them is going to make the quick decision to kill me after I turn on the spot light, because it annoys them. In fact, I believe that they might re-think an offense stance as I just threw them off-guard by my non-typical approach and they may now be thinking, hey, this cop is not careless, maybe we should just ride out the stop and see if he just gives me a simple summons. That's my thinking and belief on the topic. I have a wife and two small children at home, I will continue this approach on night time M. V. stops until I retire. If I annoy you with the spotlight, well then, I'm sorry. I realize that the chances of you being the one that just robbed the local auto parts store(that's humor ) are slim but we just don't know until we stop you and that is why it is done.



Scott W.

 

[Bigsaint]

Okay, time for a big diesel group hug everyone



Scott W.

 

[Max340]

>>SO HE KNOWS WHERE THE OFFICER IS TO SHOOT HIM!<<



I get it, you can tell he is a criminal who shoots cops because of the "I am a trick shot artist" bumper sticker.



I'd bet a guy intent on shooting a cop aims directly, but whadoowhyno?



Don, Really? Ya think its not possible to reflect the light back in the cops eyes by adjusting the mirror? Ok, I guess yer an expert because you've tried? Seems to me ya have an even chance of doing so. I know I did it, one of my buddies pulled me over as a joke, and I nailed him with the adjustment. I'd bet it doesn't happen all the time, but hey, yer the expert.



You are correct, the important thing IS getting home at night. And since the spotlight in the mirror would immediately give away an officer approaching the car from the proper angle, because he interrupted the beam, thats seven reasons the A pillar spotlight in the mirror is a bad idea. BTW, did your buddies see the gun in the mirror? Or did they have to walk up to the car to see it? I'll bet the light in the mirror didn't show em anything.



BigSaint, I do understand, believe me. I think you are misconstruing what I am saying.



I do not believe you are out to make friends, but I DO think thats deliberately doing something antagonistic is a bad idea. Further, that one act seems to have VERY little to add to safety, and much to take away from it.



If you seriously believe a motorist is going to complain about the spotlight being in the mirror, you are obviously not taking into account the whole situation.



>>If the stop is going to turn violent, it's going to turn violent regardless of what I do. <<



Ok then, why do something that might push the situation? Why do something that, as you admit, won't stop the violence? Whose chain ARE you yankin' here?



>>Now, I have to approachs to use, yours, the less offense, no spotlight, walk right up on the drivers side door and goodevening to all approach, which will get me killed, <<



A large assumption on your part. From the methods I have seen, the spot light would have been blocked by the angle of the officers approach, which is hard alongside the car, well in back of the drivers forward view. So even using the spotlight, its useless when you do the stop correctly. Second, your blanket assumption that you would be killed without the spotlight is ludicrous and has little fact to back it. Sure its POSSIBLE, but due caution is all ya have.



>>or the professional and tactically correct approach using the spotlight and take down lights, exiting from my vehicle and perhaps approaching their vehicle on the passenger side. <<



Where you are clearly visible to the driver, who will be notified by the occupants of your angle of approach. Face it, no matter what ya do, if its a carload of felons, that spotlight is NOT gonna save yer butt. Only backup will, and thus logically, the first move is to run the plate, and notify back up of your location. That spotlight isn't gonna do you jack if the guy wants to shoot you.



>>I believe that they might re-think an offense stance as I just threw them off-guard by my non-typical approach <<



Non-typical? You claim it is proper procedure. It should therefore be typical. You seriously think a spotlight throws them "off guard" if they are looking to shoot you? Jeez, this thing must have photon shields in it... .



Face it, its a dangerous profession, making it safer by shining a light that has no effect on seeing the interior (which is largely out of view even when illuminated) isn't a help.



I wish you luck in your profession, but don't hand me the cop rhetoric, I dont buy it.

 

[Bigsaint]

I ain't yanking anyones chain here 'pal' and I'm done trying to reason with ya. I like a good debate as much as the other guy, but I'm done here as well.

Scott W.

 

[EMDDIESEL]

I have a simple solution. Bigsaint is a TRAINED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WITH 14 YEARS EXPIERIENCE, and you Max, are not, end of disscussion.

You think you know more then all the Police departments do in terms of officer safety?. All the police departments that do this are wrong? you have all the answers? Why dont you train police then on the right way to make a traffic stop then? you seem to know the best way to do it.



I would never tell a police officer how to do his job and how NOT to get killed, just like a police officer cant tell me how to get a 12,000 ton train filled with Haz mats through peoples backyards safeley.

 

[The patriot]

Uhhhh how did this thread start???

 

[Max340]

Big, if you aren't yanking anyones chain, then why say something that contradicts itself?



Fact: That spotlight technique won't stop a guy from shooting you. It won't allow you to see a hidden gun. It won't allow you to sneak up on the car any more easily than you could without it.



Fact: If the guy is gonna take a shot at you, the light won't change that. You said as much yourself.



Fact: If the car is indeed full of "bank robbers", and you suspect you might need help, calling backup makes more sense than shining a light on the car and hoping to see a weapon.



Fact: If the traffic stop is a felon intent on injuring you, a light won't stop him, it won't take him off guard, and it won't change his goal.



Fact: If the traffic stop is just another average guy, the spotlight is one good way to annoy him, start the incident off on the wrong foot, and generally make things negative in nature.



Conclusion: For the bad guys, the light does NOTHING to aid the officer. For the good guys, if makes a tense situation worse.



You like a good debate? Next time come with more counter points than: "Its my training, and my training works because I am still alive. " Its worth noting that to you, no matter how much you claim otherwise, its STILL "Us vs. Them", which is the reason why most cops have more trouble than they want.



EMD, I have a simple solution too. Maybe if LE started working WITH law abiding citizens and looking at the net effect of some of the silly things they think keep them alive, they might find the benefits far outweight the supposed effects. Unfortunately, more and more they think of themselves as a paramilitary unit of sorts. And maybe thats necessary in some cases. But until ALL citizens are criminals, we have the right to be treated as Citizens with respect and courtesy, not as criminals simply because of "reasonable suspicion".



The mentality that no new idea is a good idea because all the old ideas work fine, deters progress, keeps things status quo, and means nothing changes. Next time you figure an idea from a guy who isn't an "expert" is a bad on, look at some of the odd things you would have to do without if every idea were thrown out on that basis.



On the basis of what you would never tell someone, a cop should NEVER tell a citizen how he should react to certain situations. Yet LE day in and day out feels its ok to tell us "Its in our training and its effective, so put up with it. "



Bull. Light rays never stopped a bullet. They HAVE antagonized millions of people, just like the younger brother with the flashlight has for generations.



Just like you and Bigsaint, who aren't experts in human nature, are trying to tell me, with 60 credits of teaching theory, psychology, sociology and testing and evaluation classes, how a person should react to a light shined in his or her eyes. Do I claim to be an expert? Nope, but its more than you have, I'd bet on it.



Yeah, I have a "bad attitude. " And with that "bad attitude", I'll continue to help the local cops, both on the street and for a few, as a friend off the street. Even if some are jerks and cite me for stuff that doesn't and won't hold up in the face of the law. Whether you like to admit it or not, LE needs more guys like me that don't care about the "Us vs. Them" attitude enough to leave them hanging in danger when we can help.



This thread was started with an conservative essay that essentially uses the liberal attitude that any special interest group should be treated as better or differently than the general population. Most jobs involve idiots at some point or another. Most jobs involve danger at some point or another. If you don't like the level of idiots or danger, change jobs. Whining to the public, stereotyping them as all hating your occupation, and asking for special treatment are not acceptable. Job choice is a personal responsibility. Accept that responsibility. Don't write or post long whining essays on how "put upon" your (or any other) profession is.

 

[EMDDIESEL]

Uh oh, Max has 60 credits teaching, we better quit now. That means he is better then us, knows everything about anything (including law enforcement) and we are all stupid.

 

[DRR-24V]

I think if you guy's will just follow my lead and ignore MAD MAX he will just go away. Unless he like's to argue with himself. !!

 

[merryman]

Once when I was being a little contrary, my dad said, "boy, you'd argue with a fence post"

Vaughn

 

[Bigsaint]

Well, I told myself that I would not post another reply, but I couldn't resist...



Max, Max, Max, you no what, you are 110% right. Heck, with all that schooling you have, 60 credits, that should make you a Dr. of theory, psychology, sociology . Let me know when you have time available, maybe you could take a ride over to our P. D. and teach us the RIGHT way. I can't believe I've been doing it wrong for all these years. Guess my experience, coupled with a College degree in Criminal Justice and 4 years spent as a Marine M. P. = zero.



I really don't think that I contradicted myself, but if you say so, then once again, I agree with you.



The one item that I agree with most is that you and I are on the opposite side of the fence and personally, I prefer my side.



Being that you have all of that time in grade, wouldn't you agree that the points that you say are FACTS, are really more opinion based, or did you do research on Law Enforcement and the effects of spotlights on undeserving motorists ?



lol, I'm gonna leave now so I can bang my head on the wall a few more times before I hit the rack.



Scott W.

 

[Bigsaint]

One last post to think on Max. If you were correct, in regards to the spot light and how it aggravates a motorist, don't you think that I would have seen this and realized that I/we should re-evaluate our tactics. Believe me, people are not afraid to talk out and complain to a supervisor if we if we do the slightest thing that they either believe is wrong or unprofessional. I have had internal complaints generated by motorists who I have issued summons to for infractions such as parking in a handicapped zone. Not for my attitude, for the fact that I should have had something better to do. Very few are afraid to speak out against the Police anymore, and that's probably not such a bad thing as I realize that there are plenty of un-professional cops out there right now.



I have no idea how many cars I have stopped in my career, but let's just say 100 per year (I'm sure the number is closer to 250-300). Multiply that by 14 years, 1400 cars and motorist contacts. Not ONE has ever complained to either myself or a supervisor that the Officer shinned his spotlight in my mirror. NOT ONE.



Now, I'll let you in on a little secret. We don't ALWAYS use the spot light at night in the rearview mirror. Sometimes, we point it at the drivers side mirror. Sometimes, we do walk up on the drivers side of the car. Sometimes, we call for back up way before the car is even stopped. Sometimes, we stay back and order the driver to exit from the vehicle. Sometimes, we walk up on the passenger side and just take a look from a distance. Sometimes, we box the stopped car in with numerous Police vehicles, all of which are shining their lights directly at the operators eyes. Police tactics are ever changing, but the one thing that I strive to do, especially in Law Enforcement, is to stay non-consistant. I realize that does contradict my previous post, in which I stated that I will always use my spotlight on stops, but there you have, you now know some of the secret tactics of Law Enforcement.



Scott W.

 

[hdm48]

As an ex police officer I can see some good points being covered here. To those that don't know what it is to be in the position of dealing with people in an authoritive level, just remember this, you voted into office the people that make the laws that the police must inforce. the police don't make the laws, your votes do.

Police officers are people too. And can make mistakes. And while I agree with you about snotty little 'super cops' you can and should file a complaint and follow up on it. It is sad that we need laws to protect us from others and ourselfs. But while we do, we need to do what we can to make it easier for law enforcement and other aid agencies. Help or get out of the way. And remember, they are there to help or protect you and yours. You may, at any time run for office and then you an change the laws to suite your own needs.

 

[Max340]

Originally posted by EMDDIESEL

Uh oh, Max has 60 credits teaching, we better quit now. That means he is better then us, knows everything about anything (including law enforcement) and we are all stupid.

EMD, ya missed the point. Its not how much anyone knows about a subject, its the willingness to take info from a different POV and use it to your advantage. Something that you and BigSaint seem unwilling to do.



Your loss.

 

[Archive]

Gentlemen, after several years of watching America's finest deal with violent and deranged criminals on the "COPS" program, I must say this: If I were in law enforcement, I personally would not approach a stopped vehicle at night - unless I had the entire lighting system from Daytona International Motor Speedway bolted to the top of the patrol car!!!!! I would want a system that would MELT the rearview mirrors. My safety would vastly "overshadow" (pardon the pun) your convenience.



I have learned it's really hard to beat a man when you're debating him on what puts bread and butter on his own table.