Archived Zero PSI with new FASS DDRP lift pump, OOC

[pfmoale]

OK, just finished the complete installation of FASS DDRP. Purged the system 5 times with clicking the key. Engine starts,and runs, but fuel pressure gauge shows 0 pressure. The little LED light on dash also remains "RED".

How long did you have to wait until the fuel pressure came up to, something above 0 ?

I still have the auxiliary Carter frame mounted lift pump installed.

Removed the + and - leads, from the pressure switch on the engine oil galley, when it sees 40 PSI of oil pressure, auxillary lift pump starts.

Connected a separate 12V battery to the (frame rail pump) leads, when the engine was being cranked by wife. When I touch aux. lift pump, pressure gauge goes up to 20 PSI +. When I remove the lead,held on by my hand, pressure on gauge goes down towards 0. Still nothing on fuel pressure gauge.

Will the fuel still go through the auxiliary lift pump, or is that to much restriction ?

I don't want to push my luck of keeping the engine running, when I see 0 PSI.

Currently, Dead In The Driveway.

Any ideas ?



Thanks for the help.



Peter

 

[Cattechcolt]

With my Fass 150, I have to physically remove the feed line to my cp3 pump, key ON until fuel comes out of line, then reinstall, I know you should be able to just prime it w/ the key on/ off, but mine will not do it, every time I change the filters... . just have a bucket handy to collect the fuel from the disconnected hose.

 

[pfmoale]

Thanks for the reply cattechcolt.
Strange thing is the engine runs, but "RED" LED light is on and have 0 pressure on fuel gauge.
May have to break the "T" I have, that goes to pressure switch, for LED light, and other leg to the fuel pressure sending unit, for gauge, and see if I have fuel to that point. Other leg of "T" goes into banjo bolt that feeds Injection pump.
But again, the engine runs.
If it's electronic, I am really going to be mad !

Off note, my cousins use to live in Arvada, now there in Broomfield. Their name is Silvas.
2nd cousin has since passed on, but his sister is an avid horse person, (Janeene).

Thanks for the help.

Peter

 

[Cattechcolt]

Your Welcome Peter, do you have a second or third gen? the third gen like mine will run without fuel press, but it will damage a vp pump in a hurry... how I do it is unhook the line, key on, let run till fuel is present, then re attach the line. I also have a tee into my pump to a gauge, and it will also read 0 until I purge the air out. hope this helps. .

P. S. , I used to live in Santa Rosa over in Sonoma Co. for 4 years, then moved here for work small world

Colter

 

[pfmoale]

Colter,
It's a 2nd Gen, 2001.
Just got off the phone with a mechanic buddy of mine. Explained everything I did to him.
He used to work at a Dodge / Chrysler shop here in Napa, and is familiar with CTD engines.
Told him I still have the frame mounted pump still in the system. A second after engine starts, I attach the positive lead to the spare / extra battery, and I see about 24 PSI constantly.
Chip Fisher @ Bluechip Diesel sez the VP's are suppose to be have no more than 20 PSI. To hard on the diaphragm.
Loosened the fitting that is attached to the 18" whip hose at the banjo bolt, right at inlet of IP. This is the line that goes to the pressure sending unit.
Tapped the key, seems plenty of fuel coming from FASS pump.
Fuses are good, both LED light and pressure gauge working.

I am wondering if the new FASS DDRP has enough to pull to pull fuel THROUGH the Carter frame mounted pump.
My understanding is that the FASS unit was the correct and only one needed to deliver the 15 to 20 PSI.
I would like to now know : If the Carter frame mounted LP is OFF, will the FASS LP pull through it ?
Next step is to by-pass the frame mounted (but leave it there, worst case scenario) and try that option.
Wadda ya think ?

Peter

 

[Cattechcolt]

I agree, a bypass would be your best and easiest option, just tee into the line pre and post of your carter pump, with maybee a ball valve on both lines to switch operation if for some reason you do want to run your carter pump. is your fass on the frame rail close to the tank? Pumps don't like to pull, they can push way better.

Colter

 

[JLandry]

Peter,



After reading and re-reading this thread, I'm not clear if you've positively verified the new FASS is getting power. When you bump the starter (without cranking and starting the engine), do you actually hear the it running?



Assuming the FASS is wired through a relay switched on by the ECM's lift pump circuit, it should run continuously for approx. 25 seconds and show good pressure on your gauge. If not, then you need to trouble shoot why the FASS isn't getting power or if it is, why it isn't pumping fuel.



Now assuming you have verified the FASS is working correctly, then the next step would be to take the old Carter lift pump out of the fuel line as you've already mentioned you'd planned to do.



As you work through this, remember you can bump the starter to activate the lift pump circuit to check the operation of the lift pump. Don't run the engine with zero fuel pressure if you can avoid it or you might wind up buying a new VP44.



Best of luck to you...



John L.

 

[pfmoale]

John,
Thanks for the input.
Oh yes, I definitely know that the FASS unit is working, as I bumped the key for 5 cycles before I even held the key to start the engine.
My heart is pounding when the fuel pressure gauge goes to 0.
I very much liked Colter's idea of a ball valve before the frame mounted Carter pump.
Next to last issue (I think) was a short article by a fellow named David Mangolli. He basically said the same thing.

Being a Boy Scout, there motto is "Be prepared", and I was in the USCG, there motto is "Always ready". That's what I want to be.

Going to pack it in for the night, but when I get home tomorrow after work, I will make the by-pass switch out.

BTW, where, if any, would be the fuse that operates the lift pump ?

Colter, unfortunately, the FASS DDRP unit I installed, was meant to directly replace the engine mounted OEM Carter LP. The electric plug connection (on new FASS unit) was only about 4" long, so to me, that said it belonged right where the old Carter OEM, engine mounted pump was mounted.
You are right in that any, and all pumps should be just outside the tank, to push, not to suck. Dodge engineering let us down on that bright idea !

Lets say I was to mount the FASS DDRP on the frame right next to the tank, would using larger size wire, say number 10, be sufficient for very little voltage drop ?

I hate cutting OEM electric connectors if I don't have to. How or where would I get the male and female connectors to make a long "extension cord" ?

Thanks fellows.

Peter

 

[JLandry]

My heart is pounding when the fuel pressure gauge goes to 0.

You and me both buddy!

BTW, where, if any, would be the fuse that operates the lift pump ?

It's hard to believe, but there isn't one. The lift pump is powered directly from the ECM without so much as a fuse or relay. This is why you definitely don't want to power a high amp lift pump using the stock wiring without adding a relay.

I hate cutting OEM electric connectors if I don't have to. How or where would I get the male and female connectors to make a long "extension cord" ?

Vulcan Performance sells a 74" long extension harness suitable for the amp draw of stock lift pumps. I'm using one with an Airtex lift pump relocated down on the frame rail just in front of the fuel tank without any problems. If the FASS DDRP has a similar amp draw to a stock lift pump, it should be fine to use this same wiring extension if you decide to relocate.



John L.

 

[Sticks]

This is why I started a collection of LP Pigtails anytime I replaced a Carter. Cut it in half, and splice in the length you need.

I would have thought that the FASS would have come with a pigtail and elec. harness for the relay.

 

[pfmoale]

Sticks,
As mentioned above, it did, with the proper female end, so as to plug in OEM male from old Carter, directly to the new FASS DDRP.
Sure would have been nice to maybe another 2" of wire on the pump side. (But then again, who wouldn't like another 2" !)
The old Carter LP I have, has the female connector directly connected to the bottom of the pump motor (Look Ma, no wires !)

Thanks to you all for the wonderful help on trying to get me through "My" problem.
There is SO MUCH to learn about what makes these trucks & engines tick.

Peter

 

[pfmoale]

OK Gentlemen, here is, hopefully the final post.

I by-passed the Carter axillary frame mounted pump.
Cycled the key 4 times to charge the fuel line.
Hit the key, sputtered for a moment, the gauge went up to 15 PSI.

Let her warm for about 5 or so minutes, and watched the fuel gauge. Still doing OK.

Road test showed :
15 PSI, at idle
12 PSI when cruising at about 70 MPH, + or-
8 PSI at WOT, up a slight grade.

Are these numbers in line of what is suppose to be ?

At end of month, a camping trip with 24 foot 7,000 lb. travel trailer. Wonder what the pressures will be then ?

Already thinking of a "Instant use, by turning ball valves, manifold system". This would be for worst case scenario.

I hope I can pay it forward someday, to someone who is in trouble.
You guys are the best !


Best Regards,

Peter

 

[fox]

John,

Thanks for the input.

Oh yes, I definitely know that the FASS unit is working, as I bumped the key for 5 cycles before I even held the key to start the engine. My heart is pounding when the fuel pressure gauge goes to 0.

I very much liked Colter's idea of a ball valve before the frame mounted Carter pump.

Next to last issue (I think) was a short article by a fellow named David Mangolli. He basically said the same thing.



Being a Boy Scout, there motto is "Be prepared", and I was in the USCG, there motto is "Always ready". That's what I want to be.



Going to pack it in for the night, but when I get home tomorrow after work, I will make the by-pass switch out.



BTW, where, if any, would be the fuse that operates the lift pump ?



Colter, unfortunately, the FASS DDRP unit I installed, was meant to directly replace the engine mounted OEM Carter LP. The electric plug connection (on new FASS unit) was only about 4" long, so to me, that said it belonged right where the old Carter OEM, engine mounted pump was mounted.

You are right in that any, and all pumps should be just outside the tank, to push, not to suck. Dodge engineering let us down on that bright idea !



Lets say I was to mount the FASS DDRP on the frame right next to the tank, would using larger size wire, say number 10, be sufficient for very little voltage drop ?



I hate cutting OEM electric connectors if I don't have to. How or where would I get the male and female connectors to make a long "extension cord" ?



Thanks fellows.



Peter

This is not clear. Are you bumping into the starter, as if to just crank it for 1/2 second? This is what runs the lift pump for 20+ seconds. ??

Just turning the key to on is not doing it right.

 

[pfmoale]

Mr. Fox,
Yes sir, I do know that just a quick tap of the key will run the lift pump for about a 25 second cycle. I could hear it running in the engine compartment, on each cycle.

(P. S. , very much like the last line in your profile ! Don't give up, and don't back down !)

Peter

 

[JLandry]

Road test showed :

15 PSI, at idle

12 PSI when cruising at about 70 MPH, + or-

8 PSI at WOT, up a slight grade.



Are these numbers in line of what is suppose to be ?

Peter,



Your pressures are almost identical to mine with a frame mounted Airtex lift pump and a Napa 3270 in-line prefilter beforehand.



Sounds like you're all set.



Drive safely,



John L.

 

[ioli]

Peter,

Just now read your post on your DDRP install issues. Setting up fuel supply system with two pumps is a good idea. I have seen several owners of 1998. 8 to 2002 2nd gen trucks with that fuel supply system. When my fuel supply system is completed in the future, when $ and time permits I plan on having a draw straw in the tank, Vulcan big hose set up from tank to two DDRPs with ball valves for lining up for isolation, bypass & back up operation, to stock filter canister to VP44, with finally pressure gage and LED. Thank you for posting the pressures you have. As mentioned in the private message I was up in the mountains at BSA camp for a week. So here is an update about my new DDRP installed 7/14/11 in the stock lift pump location with all stock fuel lines except new blue fuel hose from DDRP to fuel filter canister and inline prefilter=> I had a full pickup bed a 6' X 8' utility trailer full of gear for twelve scouts and four adults. Traveled approximately 185 miles up in mountains and back. Had plenty of power and no starting issues. The DDRP is so quiet when running I have to get out of the truck and listen for it. I don't have a pressure gage yet so I will presume I have same pressures as your truck at this time. There are no leaks and all is good at this time. Take care, and will be in touch. Vince.

 

[pfmoale]

Somethings still strange !

Hi Vince,

Just referred back to your last post.

Took 7,000 lb. travel trailer up to Amador County fair, in Plymouth, CA.

When cruising at 60 MPH + or -, fuel pressure is about 9 to 10 PSI, the little LED light is starting to flicker ! It DOES NOT stay on constant, but wondered why I am seeing the LED light flicker, but gauge shows 9 or 10 PSI. That pressure switch is suppose to come on at 5 PSI.



Called the Tech support fellow at FASS, and he seems to think there is some kind of restriction in the system.



Before trailer pulling trip, I did completely by pass the frame mounted Carter pump, with some 3/8" I. D. fuel hose.



Two things now need to be done. 1. ) test for volume on output of pump. Tech guy sez that DDRP is suppose to deliver 72 GPH of fuel. If my figures are correct, that comes out to 0. 83 GPM. Just a tad under 1 GPM ? That little pump should be supplying the IP with plenty of fuel !

2. ) Drop the fuel tank and remove the sending / pick up unit and see what the small filter mesh screen looks like.



Question ? Does one really need the mesh screen on the end of the fuel pick up line that's INSIDE the tank. That's just great for maintenance purposes, isn't it ??? FASS tech says the new modification is to install an inline filter, before the DDRP. I received the kit that had the small round 144 mesh screen that mounted in the pre-banjo fitting. He said they are doing away with that set up.

If one chooses to use the larger "draw straw", it doesn't have a filter screen on it, does it ?



One final note. When leaving the camp ground, tried to go in reverse, and a she no wanted to go ! Moved shift lever through the gears, and finally it went.

Also, the check engine light came on. Didn't plug the code reader in until I got home. It has brought up this code before, but as Chip Fisher, of Bluechip Diesel said "The P0216 DTC, is the death code for the VP44", Great, just great !

As with things electronic, you don't know the day, nor the hour, it is finally going to crap out !



(Unfortunately) the saga continues !



Any more ideas ?



Thanks,



Peter

 

[pfmoale]

Napa's Pre Filter

John L. ,



Napa auto parts pre filter, # 3270 :

Is it clear so you can see what's inside it ?

The fuel lines are 3/8" I. D. does that number denote the size for a 3/8" I. D. fuel line ?

FASS support tech says a Napa # 3032 is a 5/16" size. Would seem to me that the larger it is, the less restrictions one would have.



Thanks (once more),



Peter

 

[JLandry]

John L. ,

Napa auto parts pre filter, # 3270 :
Is it clear so you can see what's inside it ?

No. The way the filter is constructed internally you can't see a light shined through it. There's a "basket" inside made out of a fine stainless steel mesh screen and nothing more. I got curious and cut one open recently.

The fuel lines are 3/8" I. D. does that number denote the size for a 3/8" I. D. fuel line ?

I honestly have no idea how Napa's part number system works, but I also have a 3/8" ID fuel supply line (5/16" return line) and the Napa 3270 filter has 3/8" nipples on it.

FASS support tech says a Napa # 3032 is a 5/16" size.

I believe both these filters have a body that's physically the same size, but the 3270 has the 3/8" nipples as previously stated and the 3032 only has 5/16" nipples. The 3270 has a 120 mesh strainer rated at 140 microns, but the 3032 has a filter with a 20 micron rating. All things being equal, the 3032 should be more restrictive.

The 120 micron rating of the 3270 filter is perfectly adequate for what it's designed for: keeping crap from the tank out of the lift pump.

As to your low pressure... At this point I'd be darn temped to just drop the tank and install a Draw Straw I to eliminate any possibility the OEM fuel pickup system has a restriction. I have a Draw Straw I sitting on my workbench to do this mod myself. I just need to find a free weekend with good weather and the truck has less than 1/4 tank fuel.

Please keep us posted,

John L.

 

[ioli]

Hi Peter,

Just read your 8/4/11 post. Thats a total bummer. I agree with John L as far a having a draw straw I in the tank. That would completely eliminate that issue and also allows you to inspect the source of your fueling system. I am not sure what the micron measurement of the sack mesh is in the tank, but there sure seems to be some sort of restriction. I presume the LED is tapped into the same PI source as the gage is. As far as the prefilter to DDRP I would say I agree again with John L. If getting this system completely opened up, then installing a big hose system kit is the way I would go with the draw straw I. It allows you to go to 3/8" or 1/2" fuel line from tank to VP44 still using the stock fuel filter canister which in our case they recommend using 10 micron fuel filters which supposedly allows correct amount of fuel flow to keep the VP44 cool and lubed. You can install the prefilter of your choice as described above as long as it is at least the micron mesh of what the tank sack was that is not there anymore, upstream of the DDRP. Anything that would allow us to run a fuel supply system source with less restriction and better trouble shooting elimination abilities is worth it. I don't have the issues you have at this time, but if I did I would do what I have just described.



I worked a set of nightshifts and when I got home Friday morning I shut off my truck as usual. An hour later I had to take my son to football practice and my start would only click. Yes it finally happened the weak starter issues are here. At least it happened in my driveway. So I will be removing my starter and alternator and getting them rebuilt this week. The DDRP is still working and have had no negative issues. I sure wish I had the time to put a gage in for fuel pressure, but wifie has honey dooz for me.

Take care, Vince