Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Power for 98 12 Valve

[WShupe]

And another.



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[JoshPeters]

I don't want you to believe me, that would mean that you have made a smart decision, and at this point that is beyond your scope. I was around Jeff's truck when it was first painted as the "Silverline" truck, back when it was running an 11. 8 with S300 non ET and HT3B twins, then it went to a SP66 and nitrous, and now back to a PS66 and HT4C twins. You have no knowledge of anything pertinent to the conversation, I never stated that Jeff was running headbolts in "his" truck, I said that you would be suprised who is. I would be embarrassed to be a shop owner if I displayed your level of insight, but I will gladly keep proving you wrong if you desire.

Your quote from the other board was Jeffs Silverline truck.



II has nothing to do with his studs.



Embarrassed? Why would anyone be embarrassed? Someone asks for a recommendation, I have given many that are fitting for the masses. Things that have been proven to hold together well beyond what people are going to "do right now. " Because we all know that it starts in one place and ends in another. (ie, only wanting 300hp and ending up at 600+)



What some members of this board and in other places do is purely up to them. Like you. You can do what you want. If you want to run 60psi on the street with stock head bolts, you can go right ahead. I can't think of ANYONE that would say it is a wise decision. Can it be done? Sure, you have named multiple people that have done it, and will probably continue to do so. Those people are also inside those engines more often than most people will see in a lifetime.



I will say it again, the advise I try to give people is known combinations that are reliable. This board is full of people that will take things you say as Gospel. Give good advise, and it's not a problem. Tell someone that his stock head bolts are going to hold 600hp on someones daily driver, is not something I will do, regardless of what Race Truck/s are running.



Is any of that is Embarassing? I think not.

 

[CogginsP]

Well put Joshpeters. I know I will be going with the head bolts once I go with a twin setup, This is the only truck I have and couldn't afford blowing the head gasket. I've never even had my own head off before. I am sure I could take the time to learn it but right now I just don't have the time.



Believe me, I WISH I had multiple vehicles and a garage I could keep a taken-apart truck in forever. I would be 100x smarter than I am right now.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

if you can't afford to blow the head gasket, and your pistons are factory un-cut, o-ring the head and run head studs

 

[WShupe]

Your quote from the other board was Jeff's Silverline truck.

Yes, stock bottom end for over 3 years, that means no main studs and no balancing. The proof of the matter is that if some people don't push things until they break we will never know the limits of the parts. Why spend money you don't need to on parts you don't need? It is a lot harder to make hp with limited parts rather than just throwing coin at it and hoping it runs up to par. You say overbuild, but the fact is you don't know where the boundary is for stock parts because you don't care, you sell parts.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

if stock headbolts are so good, why do people blow head gaskets with them and then no longer blow them with good studs? and a low compression engine isn't a fair comparason. we're talking street engines w/ factory un-cut pistons...



if people have figured out how to get stock headbolts to hold so well, they either need to tell how to do it or STFU



my . 02

 

[WShupe]

I'm not saying that headbolts are better than studs, if you can afford them buy them. My problem is people saying you NEED 14mm studs to run 800hp, along with a long list of "ideas". Most people that are using headbolts in a high boost situation right now are torquing them to 150ft/lb, and in my opinion that is out of their efficiency range of clamping load. I have had great success with stock headbolts if the torquing procedure is done properly, a simple O-ring, 0. 090" headgasket, and bolts will hold more than some people would believe.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

well, see, now that makes sense to me... do you re-torque with the o-rings and bolts?



. 090" gasket is definately helping drop compression!

 

[WShupe]

Retorques are only needed with Fire Rings, checking torque occasionally on O-rings is good procedure with both studs and headbolts.

 

[JoshPeters]

Enough needless banter, has the point been proven yet?

You say overbuild, but the fact is you don't know where the boundary is for stock parts because you don't care, you sell parts.

Sell parts, nope. I want to see my customers trucks on the road, or track.

Yes I do say overbuild. Overkill is never enough!

Why?
Because I've toasted 5, count them 5 headgaskets doing different torques, different bolts and different torque patterns. Studs WILL hold when head bolts won't. Oh ya... . I have also blown a stock gasket with studs. That was the last one before I finally fire ringed it. ( 0 plate, 370's, 191 delivery valves, 18* timing and a 180hp pump, what's that 375hp?)

Lets see, for the AVERAGE person on here or any other forum, they don't want to push the edge. They want the thing to run every weekend for the season and MAYBE tear it down over the winter to freshin it up.

14mm studs for 800hp, not nessissarily. Again his quote was 800+ drag truck. He also said in there he was on a limited budget. So DO IT ONCE AND DO IT RIGHT!

He doesn't want to be like Garmons/Daren who didn't even get a pass out of his new truck because the engine let go. (IRP he oiled the staging lane down and as Jeff's quote when I asked what happened "We are pretty sure the engine let go. He was in a hurry when he put it together")

 

[arthr31]

Hi all,
Great reading.
Can someone please pass the salt?

I think something you guys might want to factor into your discussion is that you are addressing an audience that is ultra performance oriented; therfore already paying attention to this very topic. Otherwise, you cause concern and worry to guys (heck like me) that have a 10 plate, BHAF, and advanced timing... . Ya know... ? ?
Nevertheless, still good to read...

 

[CSnyder]

I would be embarrassed to be a shop owner if I displayed your level of insight, but I will gladly keep proving you wrong if you desire.



Josh takes great pride in being a member of our team and he does well by his customers. We arent a bunch of idiots pushing pricy parts on guys just for the almighty buck... we stand behind what we sell. We arent going to sell someone a plate, injectors, or a chip and tell them no worries. We tell them what they need to expect! We arent going to sell someone a fuel plate and injectors and not recommend studs either because 9 out of 10 guys cant afford to have their trucks down and out because we didnt tell them what would happen. Sure if we only sold to race and puller trucks then what the heck run the stock stuff til it breaks because if they can afford to play they can afford to pay later! Your ramblings make no sense WShupe! Josh was simply giving a simple recommendation to someone and you should have kept your nose out or gave your own recommendation rather than criticize him because he has a whole team full of knowledge behind him! Need I mention one of our very own won the IRP 2007 Quick Diesel National Champ award? I think we know our stuff and NOT just how to sell parts!!!

 

[WShupe]

( 0 plate, 370's, 191 delivery valves, 18* timing and a 180hp pump, what's that 375hp?)

The spray pattern was not even close to being contained to the piston bowl.

 

[WShupe]

Your ramblings make no sense WShupe!

Maybe not to you.

 

[WShupe]

Most of the projects I get are on a budget, and often they do not have the time or money to spend on parts they do not need. For instance, '96 automatic with 215 injectors and 2000 rack plug, 400hp 15* advance with a retorque on the stock headbolts - has seen 57psi @260K miles and no failures. This is one of many cases where proper procedure and maintenance will overcome failure. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

[CSnyder]

At 400 HP and 15* he will eventually need studs and you will be the one responsible when a stock bolt stretches and ruins his head!



57 PSI isnt nothing for a head gasket and stock bolts once in awhile. I have 250K on my 2000 and I have done numerous 60 pound launches with no studs and stock gasket but I also lunched my gasket and stretched my bolts and warped my head this winter. I run a Redline on it and drove it home from Detroit broken. I knew it was gonna cost me sometime and it did. STOCK BOLTS ARE NOT MADE TO BE RETORQUED!!! When your customers start coming back to haunt you dont come whining here because you wont get any sympathy from me! There is nothing hard for me to understand about what your trying to say because I played that game and it cost me more in the long run by trying to avoid the studs. With what your doing your setting yourself up for a class action suit from your customers with retorqued bolts when they all will eventually have warped heads. You better start looking for a supplier who offers quantity discounts!

 

[JoshPeters]

Most of the projects I get are on a budget, and often they do not have the time or money to spend on parts they do not need. For instance, '96 automatic with 215 injectors and 2000 rack plug, 400hp 15* advance with a retorque on the stock headbolts - has seen 57psi @260K miles and no failures. This is one of many cases where proper procedure and maintenance will overcome failure. Why is this so hard to understand?

So when did retorqing a TORQUE TO YIELD bolt become "proper procedure?"



There is a reason they are designed the way they are. And that is NOT retorqing them.



Don't preach about "proper procedure" when you are FAR from it and expect things to hold together for EVERYONE.



Yes I know the spray pattern was outside the bowl on my truck. Regardless, there are MANY people that had/have done the same thing. Why didn't they go through 5 headgaskets? Luck of the draw maybe, but the fact remains it is NOT reliable. Even with the improper spray angle the 370's have and a properly studded head I believe Jim Fullmer went beyond 700hp.



Ahh, but he had studs. I suppose your going to say that Jim doesn't/didn't need studs either...

 

[WShupe]

Even with the improper spray angle the 370's have and a properly studded head I believe Jim Fullmer went beyond 700hp.

Jim has 155* pistons, so they did not have the improper spray pattern.

 

[WShupe]

With what your doing your setting yourself up for a class action suit from your customers with retorqued bolts when they all will eventually have warped heads.

I am happy that both of you enjoy patting each other on the back while so unaware to what happens in the real world. Class action lawsuit, how many of those have the more "well known" Shops had while using stock headbolts and retorquing them which I will say one last time is a long list including Sled Pullers and Drag Racers. I often enjoy an insightful discussion, but this arguement such as the last has ended...

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Jim has 155* pistons, so they did not have the improper spray pattern.

Not on my old motor! I pushed it to 725 hp with 370's and a 13mm pump running 20 degrees of timing.



There are pictures in my readers rigs of a stock clearenced motor running 370's with the timing at 17. 5 and it's close to the edge but never produced any damage.



Jim