Another CI-4+ oil changing to CJ-4

[Blakers]

What is TBN?

Thanks.

 

[Spooled-up]

TBN is Total Base Number. From the TDR Magazine Issue 57 page 58, "... TBN is a good indicator of the amount of detergent in the oil. "



John Martin (25 years with Lubrizol) was the guy that did the commentary on the oil analysys. Every oil he rated Ho-Hum (his lowest rating) was a CJ oil. He didn't know what the oils were when he rated them, he only had a number. That article changed the way I think about oil, but it also made me want to stick with a CI oil which it appears is going out of production!

 

[amsoilman]

TBN is Total Base Number. From the TDR Magazine Issue 57 page 58, "... TBN is a good indicator of the amount of detergent in the oil. "

Actually, Total Base Number (TBN) is the measure of the total amount of alkaline content present in the oil. A relatively high TBN is associated with the increased protection against ring and cylinder corrosion. Diesel Oils generally have a higher TBN than a gasolene oil.





Wayne

 

[steved]

JHardwick,



Thank You for posting your UOA results, again. I believe member Steved got a good UOA with about 10,000 miles on the oil (Rotella, also. )

Yes, my UOA at 10k didn't seem bad at all... I'm currently at 8500k on this fill and will be changing the bypass and adding make-up oil (sort of cheating since the bypass means 1. 5 gallons of fresh oil will be added). I fully intend to take a UOA before the change and after the filter change to determine if that is acceptable way to run... I might not change the oil again, and just continue changing bypass filters on 10k intervals.



I, for one, feel that the new CJ-4 oils (when used in conjunction with the ULSD fuels) works quite well. The members of BITOG seem to think the new Rotella CJ-4 is about the closest a "conventional" oil has came to synthetic territory. I have quit being concerned about the CI-4/CJ-4 issue since, as pointed out in this thread, the CI-4 oils are being phased out (what are you going to do if you can't get CI-4?? Not drive your truck??).



steved

 

[steved]

What is TBN?



Thanks.

TBN is a measure of the oil's ability to neutralize acids that form in the oil from combustion.



steved

 

[steved]

And one other thing to keep in mind... they used "old school" oil analysis to "grade" the oils in the TDR article. I think oils have advanced to the point that the typical oil analysis results don't tell the whole story... the results might not be indicative of new additive packages that oil manufacturers are using to offset the loss of old school additives.

The TDR article also didn't take into account the base oil (Group II/Group III/Group IV).

steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

And one other thing to keep in mind... they used "old school" oil analysis to "grade" the oils in the TDR article. I think oils have advanced to the point that the typical oil analysis results don't tell the whole story... the results might not be indicative of new additive packages that oil manufacturers are using to offset the loss of old school additives.



The TDR article also didn't take into account the base oil (Group II/Group III/Group IV).



steved

Rationalization, rationalization, rationalization!



:-laf:-laf:-laf



Shucks, lets just call a spade a spade, and admit that we're paying more, and getting less than with the previous oil, and there are few alternatives currently available...



Sure beats TRYING to convince ourselves (and others?) the new stuff is even as GOOD as the old - let alone BETTER! :-laf:-laf:-laf

 

[JHardwick]

Sure beats TRYING to convince ourselves (and others?) the new stuff is even as GOOD as the old - let alone BETTER! :-laf:-laf:-laf

Have you personally done any testing?



I have. <thats a period

 

[steved]

Sure beats TRYING to convince ourselves (and others?) the new stuff is even as GOOD as the old - let alone BETTER! :-laf:-laf:-laf

I for one haven't seen these better CI-4 UOAs that are supposedly so much better than my CJ-4 UOA... the CJ-4 UOAs I've read seem to be as good as the CI-4 as far as wear is concerned.



And again, this is like beating a dead horse... I guess you won't drive your truck when you can't get CI-4???



steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Have you personally done any testing?



I have. <thats a period

As a matter of fact, so have I...



I have done extended drain tests using Delo CI-4, and analysis clearly displayed my oil to be entirely satisfactory for continued use - and that was with 20,000 miles on the oil under some pretty hard RV towing usage, and in a relatively new and unseated engine. Here's the report - notice the TBN and TAN at 20K miles:



#ad




Wanna post YOUR "test" analysis report? :-laf:-laf



NOW, I fully realize that your question was intended to be sarcastic in nature - and ALSO realize you will immediately find fault with, and discard my results - but UNTIL you can provide results as good, or better on the new lube under similar usage and mileage, I'll take the recommendations and opinions of the many experts who have publicly stated that the new oils are inferior in quality and engine protection to the previous CI lubes, and that extended usage is NOT recommended with them.



Yeah, I realize you will also ignore and discard THEIR opinions as well!



Steve sez:

I for one haven't seen these better CI-4 UOAs that are supposedly so much better than my CJ-4 UOA... the CJ-4 UOAs I've read seem to be as good as the CI-4 as far as wear is concerned.



And again, this is like beating a dead horse... I guess you won't drive your truck when you can't get CI-4???

WELL, all you need do, is do a test as I did, out to 20K miles - and keep in mind my test was on a new engine not fully seated in - then you will have a comparison you can trust...



"Park my truck" - hardly, as we both know that is foolish, and not an option,



And I think it's been pretty well established that the new CJ stuff IS at least adequate - as long as recommended change intervals are used.



SO, I'll be forced like everyone else to use what is available, using shorter change intervals - but what I WON'T do, is rationalize or try to convince myself and others the new stuff is somehow, in spite of reduced wear reducing and oil conditioning additives, somehow - magically - as good as or superior to what the CI-4 stuff was.



You are correct, I might be FORCED to use the new stuff - but I DON'T have to like it, or pretend I do! :-laf

 

[steved]

And IMHO, you are a little biased since you are basing your opinions from your UOAs of CI-4 with almost no comparison to CJ-4.

So we are on opposite sides of the fence... I have UOAs indicating CJ-4 is fine and your have UOAs of CI-4 (that is being phased out) showing how well it PERFORMED... but do you really have a lot of data supporting that idea that CJ-4 is not as good?

You guys make it sound like the end of the world, when it might actually mean you'll need to shorten your OCI from 50k to 30k.

steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

And IMHO, you are a little biased since you are basing your opinions from your UOAs of CI-4 with almost no comparison to CJ-4.



So we are on opposite sides of the fence... I have UOAs indicating CJ-4 is fine and your have UOAs of CI-4 (that is being phased out) showing how well it PERFORMED... but do you really have a lot of data supporting that idea that CJ-4 is not as good?



You guys make it sound like the end of the world, when it might actually mean you'll need to shorten your OCI from 50k to 30k.



steved

NO ONE is claiming the "end of the world", OR that the new stuff isn't adequate for shorter duration usage - what quite a few knowledgeable oil guys ARE pointing out, is that the additive package in the new stuff IS weaker than the previous stuff - to be AWARE of that fact, and change oil at more frequent intervals.



I personally have no great objection to that fact - but DO sorta resist the efforts of some to try to convince others the new stuff is just as good in performance as what it replaced. I'll respect that position lots more when I see a long-term test run comparing the 2 oils - until then, I'll still hold my greatest respect for what is no longer available.



But no, no "end of the world" claims - OR that engines will drop like flies at short mileage with the new stuff. It's about relational perspective - and what at least appears to be reduced overall quality of the new compared to the old.



SO, since this IS getting a bit repetitious, I have no more to offer in this thread - use whatever oil suits ya - and happy driving!

 

[Jaysyl]

An good oil thread war, but with a new twist. Not brands of oil, just CI-4+ or CJ-4:-laf

 

[BGabaldon]

jaysyl you bet me to the punch. this was great reading!

 

[kowaliga]

Does anyone know what the API rating CES is? Its part of that rating for CJ oils insn't it?

 

[JHardwick]

Wanna post YOUR "test" analysis report? :-laf:-laf

I already have, you weren't paying attention. My first dump of CJ rated oil came back a little better than 6 previous reports with CI rated oil (my average). All of the CI rated oil had between 12,700 and 18,500 towing miles on it, while the CJ oil had 14,600 towing miles on it. This next CJ dump (in the next day or 2), will have over 25,000 miles on it, and I expect good results.



I'll continue to follow what my testing tells me and not pay so much attention to conjecture, marketing and hype.

 

[amsoilman]

Does anyone know what the API rating CES is? Its part of that rating for CJ oils insn't it?

CES is a Cummins Engineering Standard that indicates the oil meets this standard. CES-20078 is a rating for a synthetic oil.



Wayne

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I already have, you weren't paying attention. My first dump of CJ rated oil came back a little better than 6 previous reports with CI rated oil (my average). All of the CI rated oil had between 12,700 and 18,500 towing miles on it, while the CJ oil had 14,600 towing miles on it. This next CJ dump (in the next day or 2), will have over 25,000 miles on it, and I expect good results.



I'll continue to follow what my testing tells me and not pay so much attention to conjecture, marketing and hype.

Just one last - you're right, I missed or forgot your earlier comparison reports, and I'll look forward to your next high mileage report as well - if it comes out well too, that's pretty good evidence in favor of the new stuffs capabilities.



Regards



Gary

 

[AKaiser]

CES is a Cummins Engineering Standard that indicates the oil meets this standard. CES-20078 is a rating for a synthetic oil.



Wayne

Actually, CES-20078 is Cummins' API CI-4 designation. http://www.cicca.org/docs/2007ProductTechnology. ppt#277,17,CES 20078 Where We Are Today



Cummins Engine Oil Recommendations



CES----Application--------------------------------------North American Classification

20078--Heavy Duty and Midrange Engines with EGR API¹--CI-4

 

[JHardwick]

Just one last - you're right, I missed or forgot your earlier comparison reports, and I'll look forward to your next high mileage report as well - if it comes out well too, that's pretty good evidence in favor of the new stuffs capabilities.



Regards



Gary

Just remember ... ... ... . I'm taking one for the team here :-laf



I never really intended on even taking the CI oil over 20,000 miles, but with all of the speculation going on here, I figured I'd try it