Here I am

DPF's, the reason behind them

Attention: TDR Forum Junkies
To the point: Click this link and check out the Front Page News story(ies) where we are tracking the introduction of the 2025 Ram HD trucks.

Thanks, TDR Staff

Front wheel bearings 2wd chassis cab

One Small Advantage of Cab & Chassis

Status
Not open for further replies.
I was lucky enough to attend a class a few weeks ago on DPF's and thought I'd share part of what I learned... the guys putting on this class make them, and build the service equipment to service them on large trucks where the canister can be removed and cleaned. . They do not make the Cummins Dodge system but do understand how it works and functions, as they reviewed the bid process and either didn't bid or lost it... They are a Tier 1 supplier to the OEM truck builders... . The guy who taught the class was a mechanical engineer..... (SAE) There has been a lot said here in these pages that is not correct or miss understood... Please let me add my 5 cents worth... .



The DPF on your truck is the first to be designed and used so that it can be re-generated.....



The DPF is designed to hold and contain soot. At some point it must be cleaned or re-generated. The DPF is to reduce soot only, and the EGR system is there to reduce nox...



On larger trucks where space is not such a concern and the overall cost is not as important the DPF is several hundred lbs. , is a separate canister that can be removed and cleaned. And costs 2-3 times that of the light unit on our trucks...



On these larger trucks the canister that is the filter part of the DPF is designed to filter the soot from the air... in these cases this design of filter will glow red turning a great majority of the soot to ash... . something like a 50:1 reduction... sometime in the life of the canister it needs to be removed, placed in a shaker, and 800* air is forced through it in a time bake application... the heat turns more soot to ash, the forced air and shaking blows the ash from the canister and the canister is returned to service..... There is a flow test, and the DPF must pass this test to be returned to service... on a large truck the guess is several hundred thousand miles... yet to be determined on a large scale by fleets...



On our trucks, it was decided to make this filter so that it could be re-generated in the truck by adding raw fuel across a catalyst to generate about 800* F. of hot gases across the canister. This high temperature reduces the soot to ash, again about 50:1. The ECM monitors pressure before and after the DPF as well as the temperature. The design is such that when its sooted up and the back pressure is to a point the system goes into a re-gen. Thus the heating of the system to reduce soot to ash..... At this point you need to understand that ULSD has ultra-low sulfur because sulfur will contaminate the DPF... the engine doesn't care if it has LSD or ULSD it's to prevent the contamination of the DPF just like leaded fuel will contaminate a catalytic converter in gas engine.



This decision was made to reduce the size and cost of the DPF. At some point it will have to be replaced as from what I've been told its not designed as a separate canister to be removed and cleaned... .



It's my educated guess that the factory is still learning about the calibration of this system, (read NOT ENOUGH TESTING) and over coming the thousands of different driving habits of light truck owners... where in heavy trucks, the use and drivers use have been very well documented over the years with satelite information systems.



Just like in cars, if there is excessive fuel, the cat. over heats and plugs up and fails... thus the move from carburetors to fuel injection to better control the fuel... . plus improvements in cold starting and other systems...



I believe that there is something that has not been fully developed or predicted and the software is not refined enough to do the job... . but it will happen...



Of course the simple task would be to remove the complete DPF and re-install it when you sell the vehicle... do not throw this thing away... . it will cost several thousand to replace... . and remember that it is against fed emission laws to do so... . just like the half million farmers who remove the cat. so when driving in the field it won't burn the field down. . later to be re-installed at time of sale...



On a Cat. you can look in one end and see daylight through it (honey comb design), thus allowing raw gases to flow thru the cat. On a DPF there is NO CLEAR path from one end to the other... . all gases must pass through the membrane to be filtered, just like an air filter... it will clog up and will have to be re-generated to continue to function... .



With the EGR system, the EGR re-circulates exhaust gases to reduce temperatures and reduce NOX... but a by-product of reduced temperatures in a diesel engine is increased soot... .



OK this is an overview of what I've learned... . hope that its helpful...
 
Not a third gen here but after reading it I had a thought. Why not take the DPF down and make it a straight flow through design. Still keep the electronics and maybe it would keep it from cloggin. The ECM senses no clogging thus no regen. Just a thought.
 
Jim,



Thanks for the lesson. I still know very little but 100% more than I knew before I read your post.



I'd love to simply remove the shiny new DPF from my shiny new truck when I get it in a few weeks and store it in my attic. Only for off-road driving, of course.



Can anyone tell us..... will the ECM recognize the absence of the DPF and go berserk? Can it be easily fooled? Would there be long term consequences?



Harvey
 
will the ECM recognize the absence of the DPF and go berserk? Can it be easily fooled? Would there be long term consequences?



Harvey



Yes

Doesn't appear as such

too early to tell



There are a few places that are making DPF removal 'kits' for the regular trucks. I don't know that they've really started on the C&C trucks yet.



There are some discussions about it at cumminsforum
 
I don't ever plan to remove the cat or DPF. I will install an MBRP 5" back to tip this weekend. With the combination of my home made cold air intake and MBRP 5" I should see lower EGTs. My engine temp handle runs lower even now with cold air intake.
 
well, it's called a "Diesel Particulate Filter", so I always assumed they were designed to filter diesel particulate (soot) and hold it so it could be burnt off later
 
At least the DPF seems to be very effective at what it's supposed to do. EPA has certified the Dodge Ram 6. 7 at 0. 0 (ZERO) grams PM per hp-hr (standard is 0. 01 g/hp-hr). So it completely eliminates PM emissions.



The 6. 7 is certified as a 2010 emissions compliant engine meaning that it also meets the 0. 2 g/hp-hr NOx emission standard. It is my understanding that it has a NAC (NOx absorbing catalyst) to achieve that level. EPA has certified the Dodge Ram 6. 7 as meeting the 2010 emissions limit for NOx (0. 2 g/hp-hr).
 
a buddy of mine is an engineer for Cummins working with large gas and diesel engines... They are already working on stricter stuff for the future. Get this... in high smog areas like DFW, Houston, etc. The exhaust gas will actually be cleaner than the air going in the intake!
 
The exhaust gas will actually be cleaner than the air going in the intake!







Well, that's one way to clean the air we breathe!! Who woulda thunk that 10 yrs ago.



As far as the DPF emissions stuff goes, what I would like to know is, if the Current Cummins is 2010 Compliant, when is the next time a "tier" will go into effect, in other words, when will the current Cummins need to be re-engineered?



We will see the Current Cummins until what year? 2011? 2015?



Merrick
 
Merrick - the 2010 regulatory requirements are the last in the current series of promulgated regs for heavy-duty vehicles. EPA will have to go through another regulatory process to implement a new set of emission limits.
 
So, it's safe to say, the Cummins is safe for many more years, and should be near problem free in 2010 when Ford and GM have to redesign there motors again?



Merrick
 
So, it's safe to say, the Cummins is safe for many more years, and should be near problem free in 2010 when Ford and GM have to redesign there motors again?



Merrick



Yup, the Cummins 6. 7 has already achieved that regulatory hurdle. Actually, the PM limit of 0. 01 g/bhp-hr had to be attained in 2007, while the NOx emission limit of 0. 2 g/hp-hr is being phased in from 2007 to 2010.
 
I think it's important to point out what an impressive achievement the 0. 2 g/hp-hr attainment is. My 2003 Ram had a regulatory limit of 4. 0 g/hp-hr. The 2010-compliant 6. 7 Ram has a regulatory limit of 0. 2 g/hp-hr, i. e. , the NOx emissions have been reduced by a factor of 20 since the 2003 5. 9 CR Ram.



I really hope EPA stops their regulatory focus on NOx, and refocuses on HC and CO emissions. We're getting to the point of diminishing returns with respect to NOx anyway.



As I mentioned, any new emission regulations for heavy-duty vehicles will have to go through the regulatory process, which includes a 90-day public comment period. We as an interested community would have the opportunity to provide comments to EPA.



The regulatory focus on NOx is somewhat dubious anyway. NOx is a rather strange pollutant in that it both creates and DESTROYS ozone (the primary component of smog). EPA has acknowledged that reductions in ambient NOx levels can, in some locations, actually INCREASE ozone levels (EPA Final Regulatory Impact Analysis: Control of Emissions of Air Pollution from Highway Heavy-Duty Engines, http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/hd-hwy/1997frm/hwy-ria.pdf - page 119; http://www.epa.gov/ttn/ecas/regdata/RIAs/ozoneriachapter2.pdf (pp 2-1 - 2-2)).



Meanwhile, there are no ozone disbenefits to reductions in anthropogenic VOC (HC) emissions. In my opinion, gasoline vehicles are becoming by far the biggest source of ozone precursors.



It could be expected that these factors could be used to dissuade EPA of any further NOx emissions reductions, since there are arguably political sensitivities to this approach (e. g. , exposing poor inner-city residents to potentially WORSE air quality).
 
We have some of the lowest standards in the world..... what bothers me is that India, China, the two most populous countries in the world have very easy standards to meet... so limited funding would greatly reduce their out puts... . and have much farther reaching results in the foolish issue called global warming... .
 
How many of us have removed our cats? Are we any less illegal than someone who removes the DPF? Is the EPA or whoever going to start cracking down on emissions mods?

I know it will never happen, but a free-pass should be given to all purchasers of these engines until ALL the bugs (emissions related) get worked out.
 
Sorry, didn't mean to kill this thread...

On these larger trucks the canister that is the filter part of the DPF is designed to filter the soot from the air... in these cases this design of filter will glow red turning a great majority of the soot to ash... . something like a 50:1 reduction... sometime in the life of the canister it needs to be removed, placed in a shaker, and 800* air is forced through it in a time bake application... the heat turns more soot to ash, the forced air and shaking blows the ash from the canister and the canister is returned to service..... There is a flow test, and the DPF must pass this test to be returned to service... on a large truck the guess is several hundred thousand miles... yet to be determined on a large scale by fleets...
What happens to the ash and whatever else gets taken out? Is it still considered a pollutant?
 
On larger trucks the DPF's are cleaned and the material that is removed is disposed of based on your state laws... in my case we can put almost anything in our trash... . it goes to a waste to energy plant through a furnace to make electricity... . the energy plants has an afterburner and scrubber on the stack... . once it comes out of the waste to energy plant its an inert chemical that is tilled into the ground... .

For us this includes things like paint if its a solid in the can... . we can't pitch liquid paint... . we have an oven we use to clean parts... this oven goes to 700* F. during the burn cycle with a 1800*F. afterburner... we can actually pour solvent based paint into a tray, place it in the oven when we burn off parts... . the 700* portion burns off the paint and the after burner cleans the unburnt items in the exhaust stream... the ash than ends up the next morning in the trash on the way to the waste to energy plants... .

We can't put heavy metals in the oven... . lead, zinc, babit... these heavy metals go to waste metal...
 
Last edited:
Sorry, didn't mean to kill this thread...





What happens to the ash and whatever else gets taken out? Is it still considered a pollutant?



Yes, it's still a pollutant, and in Cali it's craddle to grave. This means when it goes to the landfill (garbage dump) it's yours for life!:{:{
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top