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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Anatomy of an APPS - the SEQUEL!

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Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Scotty Air II

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I got the new Williams apps installed tonight that I received from member Timbo. My camera batteries died after only one photo..... (sorry Tim). As you can see in the photo this is truely a bolt on, plug and play, factory looking piece! (the new Williams apps with new plug is on the top)I received a complete easy to follow instruction sheet with the new apps. Anyone who has adjusted or changed out one of these knows how simple of an install this is and if you have never done one don't worry the instructions walk you through it step by step. After the install setting the voltage is a piece of cake using the idle stop screw. Started right up, no codes or issues of any kind. If anyone is looking for a "plug in" replacement for the DC app$$$ check this one out! Thanks Tim... ... ... ... ..... Brad



Just wanted to thank guys for requests to purchase my set-up. I also wanted to clarify(for those wandering) this set-up does Not use a Microswitch. It is a direct bolt-up that needs no extra parts,the IVS function is internal to the sensor, like the factory one. The only thing you need is a digital voltmeter,and a T20 torx bit and adapter so the torx bit can be used with a 1/4 ratchet because the factory screws have loctite on them. The payment method will be paypal. I will send you an email that contains an invoice. You do not NEED a paypal account,the invoice will give you the option to pay with credit card or a personal account if you do not already have a paypal account set up. If anyone has any other questions feel free to ask. -- email address removed --[/email] THANKS AGAIN!:D
 
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What I learned from going with the Micro Switch IVS vs the bus APPS IVS.



Unless you really really want to do the micro switch I would go with Timbo's plug and play bus APPS.



The micro switch IVS requires you to manufacture a bracket and precisely set the idle and throttle values for the APPS IVS. I welded up a bracket after thinking it through for a week or so. Mounted the micro switch, had to make slight further modifications to the bracket, then had to set the micro switch precisely so the trip voltages were very close. Some of the adjustments were less than 1/32".



The micro switch is nice because it seperates the two functions, but - not for those that might lack patience. It can be very tedious to get it exactely correct.



Bob Weis
 
What I learned from going with the Micro Switch IVS vs the bus APPS IVS.



Unless you really really want to do the micro switch I would go with Timbo's plug and play bus APPS.



The micro switch IVS requires you to manufacture a bracket and precisely set the idle and throttle values for the APPS IVS. I welded up a bracket after thinking it through for a week or so. Mounted the micro switch, had to make slight further modifications to the bracket, then had to set the micro switch precisely so the trip voltages were very close. Some of the adjustments were less than 1/32".



The micro switch is nice because it separates the two functions, but - not for those that might lack patience. It can be very tedious to get it exactely correct.



Bob Weis



Getting back to basics... ;)



And MAN, I cringe to bring this up, lest my meaning and intent are misunderstood...



I certainly agree, to the extent that probably MOST guys reading these threads do NOT have the time, patience, and experience to twiddle with this sort of effort as others of us do, and in that regard, Timbo's setup is a clear winner!



BUT, that being said, I *do* want to point out that the primary issue that LED to all this, was the PREMATURE failure of the regular OEM APPS module, and the supposition that the design and construction - as well as the close proximity to damaging underhood heat, was the CAUSE of those premature failures.



With that in mind, I, at least, was determined to abandon the overly complicated and sensitive electronics as used in the OEM IVS section, in favor of something more reliable and less sensitive to underhood conditions.



Obviously the paths of the various "APPS players" went off in somewhat different directions, looking for differing solutions.



In THAT regard, the replacement of ONE electronic IVS device with another, is an unknown, and perhaps a crap shoot - it IS cheaper than the OEM, but in the longer run, is it any BETTER? Worse?



And yeah, the same MAY be true of the purely mechanical MS some of us are using as well - but at least the element of electronic complexity and heat sensitivity IS avoided with a MS, as was the original goal...



Absolutely NONE of what I have just posted is in ANY way intended as knocking Timbo's offering, or the start of a "mines better than yours" debate - just a bit of a reality check to point out that simply swapping one electronics-based device for another MIGHT leave the basic failure issue still remaining - only time and miles will tell.



I just sorta hate for us to take the attitude, or give the impression that all the work is done, and what solutions we now have are IT, and there's nothing more to be done. I have a couple more APPS brackets headed my way, and plan at least SOME added effort to refine and simplify my own particular approach - and to be honest, either I was just plain LUCKY, or else the MS adjustment as used in what I have done was actually quite easy - we'll see if the NEXT version is! :-laf



Meanwhile, and at the very LEAST, Timbo's setup is certainly LOTS cheaper than DC's, and EASIER to install than what I have done with mine! ;):-laf:-laf



And truth be known, I sincerely HOPE the Williams replacement APPS meets and exceeds all expectations - THAT would be a clear home run! Oo.



(EDIT!)



ALL my above points WERE valid at the time they were posted, but later dis-assembly and inspection of a Williams APPS module clearly showed that there was NO solid state circuitry used for the IVS function, but rather, and perfectly acceptable, a strip-type switch that is potentially FAR more reliable and resistant to failure, and ALSO noted, was the fact that all internal connections are SOLDERED, and NOT a rinky-dink pressure-pad conductor - so far, so good! ;)
 
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I just wanted to touch base with you guys. I am sorry for the delay in shipping. I just got a few sensors today so i can fill some orders first thing next week. I should have enough by tues. I can fill the rest of the orders I have at the present time. I don't want to upset anyone, but getting the part# sorted out was A REAL TASK, and sensors have a 2week min. lead time which is a bit frustrating. In another week or so I will have sensors in stock and ready to ship immediately at to time you request them. I do apologize for the wait, but I am working on it!
 
I don't check in to often but Chris drop me a linky to this thread [thanks Chris] . . CUDO'S to all involved on the quest.
Gary you are oh so right that your electrical knowledge [and that of the others also] is way above a simple mechanical type guys [Me] and I really do appreciate all the work done and you never ending curiosity as to why DC did such a bad job on some things.
this a top 10 read to me.
I'm either very lucky or dumb as a mud fence as I have not lost a apps in about 300K [2 trucks, this one with 165K] , so I either don't know what to look for in a failing one or have been blessed with the worlds greatest luck [in this area only LOL]
care to 'splain what are the clues a bit more in depth.
THANKS again
Gary T.
 
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Tim,

I will be emailing you sometime soon, so that I can get this upgrade put onto the APPS that died on me a little over a week ago. I figure if I have the updated version ready to go when the current one goes bad, I can't go wrong.

Ben
 
I'm running the micro switch as the IVS and the WIlliams APPS as the pot. Towed this weekend 200 miles, have a total of two weeks on the setup. ZERO problems, running like a watch.



Bob Weis
 
I'm running the micro switch as the IVS and the WIlliams APPS as the pot. Towed this weekend 200 miles, have a total of two weeks on the setup. ZERO problems, running like a watch.



Bob Weis



I truly feel that setup will prove to be the "reliable as an anvil" solution! ;)



At least for guys wanting to get away from the more sensitive electronics operation the IVS section adds to the system. But for pure plug-and-play installation at a bargain price, Timbo has a winner!



I've go a Williams APPS module sitting here, and will experiment on fabricating a simplified micro switch mounting bracket that is quick and easy to make up, and fully and easily adjustable for guys wanting to go that way with the Williams, or perhaps with the OEM DC APPS module...



More as it develops... :)
 
I could have the bracket duplicated by a fabricator.



Of course the problem is that then they are dependent on me to have them on hand.



I could write up a manufacturing and assembly description with pictures etc but they might have to have a local fabricator assemble it for them.



I could see if I can find a 1" steel I beam 1" long, and then they would only have to add the "feet" out to the 10mm bolts.



Maybe something that would GLUE together? Why not make the bracket from wood? Oak could certainly stand the heat and vibration. Anyone could screw it together, pre drill the holes etc.



What ever it takes to make the bracket available, or redesign the bracket, or ??? I'm willing to try to accomplish what ever it takes. Having the concept without the application is worthless.



I did learn that the MS has to have lateral adjustment on it with a range of probably +- 3/16" for fine tuning of the micro switch open / close points.



You know the OEM dc APPS module could work just fine getting the IVS switching off of it with the micro switch.



Good luck Gary, anything I can do to help make this available to the general population I'll do.



Bob Weis
 
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The only bad thing about going the wood route is that it would eventually rot out and as it is doing that, it would start to split. Would going the metal route with some type of high temp coating work?

Ben
 
I really want to avoid duplicating APPS posts from the other running APPS thread, and will only post this here as an idea for any other "APPS experimenters" looking for easy ways to go the separate MS route for the IVS function.



OK, another potential variation for a MS bracket and mounting method that, like Bob's, uses the APPS bracket bolts. Here again is the T-strap material I used:



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The piece I cut and fabricated from it:



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Here it is with MS attached:



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And here. mounted on the APPS bracket:



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I have one more variation for the final assembly I am making up, that one will start out as an L-shaped flat bracket, be bent, and secure to the APPS bracket using only a SINGLE bracket bolt - and after that, I'm about done playing with these.
 
OK, got the "final-final" bracket made up for the separate MS IVS versions of what all this thread has seemingly boiled down to. Nothing radical by any means, just a simple fabrication out of some 1 inch perforated strap material from some long past car stereo install - here's the piece cut, formed and fitted:



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And, how it installs on the APPS bracket:



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Note how the notch in the end grips the post, keeps the MS bracket properly located in relation to the belcrank, and with tension on it, is quite stiff. Also note the minor notch on the bracket to allow clearance for the belcrank return spring tab.



And here it all is with the MS installed:



67zRBl.jpg

F3skVG.jpg


It should be noted, that the extra components seen on the small terminal board were purely an experiment I did to eliminate the (remote!) possibility of switch interference to my Amateur radio mobile equipment - it's not really likely to be needed by other users, maybe not even me! ;)

That's about it for me on this particular approach using the MS with any of several forms of separate potentiometer sections - this last bracket would seem easily within the abilities of almost any Dodge owner wanting to keep expenses (and labor! :-laf) to a bare minimum.



This has all been fun, and some may have noticed that I sorta enjoy projects of this nature - twiddling with adaptations and work-arounds is what often helped me keep everything from printing presses to computers and networks running at the newspaper before I retired - not to mention my own electronic and mechanical stuff at home.



Good luck to any and all who work at some form of adapting what you have seen here to your own use and benefit! :D

67zRBl.jpg


F3skVG.jpg
 
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I want to explain my "setting the idle voltage" procedure because it seems to be freq. asked question. This williams sensor has a few degrees of rotation that voltage STAYS THE SAME and then begins to rise. You can actaully install the sensor without setting the idle screw but then you will have a little bit of petal travel that the engine will not rev up. Down below is that clip from the directions I include, and also look at the simple diagram I drew. The red indicates the movement that the voltage stays the same, and RPM would not increase upon petal movement. The arrow indicates where it should be set.



The reason I want you to turn the idle srew clockwise and then backwards 1/2 turn is so the voltage will CONSISTENTLY return to the SAME IDLE VOLTAGE EVERY TIME. Thats is one of the benefits that this sensor offers to our application. Those of you that have set idle voltage on the STOCK DC sensor know that hitting the voltage on the back sticker is never consistent as soon as you move the throttle and recheck it will not be the same. This is due to slight play in the bellcrank shaft. For an experiment if you go out to your truck pop the APPS cover and thrust the throttle lever sideways, you'll see what I mean. If you hook up a voltmeter to it while you move it sideways you see voltage changing all over the place.





This is the clip from my directions: Next look on the back of the 6 pin electrical connector, it is numbered. With the paperclip provided insert it into the back of the connector PIN # 3 (Green wire). Or insert it into the back of the factory plug just make sure its PIN #3. This will get hooked to the positive lead of the voltmeter. The ground lead can be hooked to the apps bracket anywhere. Turn your voltmeter to the low voltage DC scale. Make sure paperclip does not contact ground. Proceed to plug the sensor into the factory harness and then hook the batteries up. Turn the key to the ON position. Now read the voltmeter, it should read . 600-. 670. Next turn the idle stop screw clockwise, NOTE you may turn for a little bit before the voltage actually rises. As soon as the voltage begins to rise, turn the screw backwards ½ turn and you are done with the idle screw.



If you have any questions about this or anything else you can PM me or Email -- email address removed --
 
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Where exactly is this idle screw located?

Timbo,

Got the new APPS - thanks. I haven't had time to installit yet but before I do, could you give me an idea as to where exactly this idle screw is located?:confused:

With my mechanical abilities I would probably end up turning something I really shouldn't:eek:

Thanks

Dave
 
It's the stop screw that the throttle lever rests on when it's in the idle position. You'll see when you pull the cover off. You'll need a T20 torx bit to turn it.
 
Timbo,

Got the new APPS - thanks. I haven't had time to installit yet but before I do, could you give me an idea as to where exactly this idle screw is located?:confused:

With my mechanical abilities I would probably end up turning something I really shouldn't:eek:

Thanks

Dave



It's the stop-screw that the bellcrank rests against at idle, as pictured below:



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Installed the new Williams Controls APPS today. Pretty easy job thanks to Tim and Gary's advice!! . 663 voltage at the #3 pin, locked her down there. Cleared the P-0122 code with my Smarty and took it for a short ride, so far so good, no returning codes.

Thanks a million guys... this site is without question the most valuable tool a novice like myself has.

Dave
 
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