fuel filters and injector myths?

[MA2LA]

A while ago some one mention that even with a 2 mic filter setup you are not really helping to keep the injectors from failing, Is there any proof other than what is recommended. I have heard for awhile that bad filtering is the cause of alot of our injector failures, and then again it seems that many have put alot of miles on thier trucks with the stock filter setup and never had a problem.

 

[DPKetchum]

Don't know about our product,Dodge. But talking to a busy Duramax tech that has been at diesel repair 20 odd years at a Chevy store. He said even with the new lower mircon filters as G. M. had a recall on fuel filters a few years ago to a newer better filter that the injector failures that he sees has not slowed down one bit. The Duramax usues basicly the same injector/common rail set up as on Dodge trucks. Now there is mention of NEW better designed injectors with hardened balls,seats etc. They apprently did not make it into the 07 5. 9 and the 6. 7 uses a differant type injector. So NEW replacement injectors with the latest part is the new design. At least thats how I see things. Lot of good that does as its only the NEW replacements that are improved. Anyone with more FIRST HAND knowledge on the subject please jump in with what is known or not known.

 

[Bob4x4]

A some what high percentage of injector failures are electrical... ... ... . filters can't help those. I also see failures from trucks that have run increased rail pressure. :-laf some have pulled their pressure boxes off but it is stored info.



Bob

 

[BHolm]

The two injectors I have had failed, one each on two different trucks, were both electrical, one with 5k miles, one with 100k miles, both stock filtration.



I bought one of the first Duramax trucks back in 2001. I spent a lot of time on those forums. Even right away the 2 micron filters were a popular "upgrade" since on the early model d-max, a stuck injector quickly filled the crankcase and caused a complete engine failure. I had a second d-max, an '03 until 2005 and I followed the forums for all of those years, there were failures even with the "baldwin 2 mic" conversion. I haven't seen any good evidence that better than stock filtration or additives have cured injector failures.



I think that not only increased rail pressure but increasd duty cycle because of power adders contributes. The second injector that failed was on my modded 2006. It "reset" itself several times with an overnight rest. It would work for several hundred miles stock and when I turned the box back on it would fail within 30 miles. I pulled the box, let it rest, and drove it 1000 miles stock with no problem. It did eventually fail without the box on but it was obvious the extra work the box made the injector do was contributing to the failure.

 

[rbattelle]

BHolm makes some excellent points. Particularly the fact that there is no objective evidence that improved filtration increases injector life.

It "seems" like improved filtration would help, but no one (that I know of) has taken the time (and money) to thoroughly test the effectiveness of better filtration.

Ryan

 

[MA2LA]

This is why I started this thread. Some times everyone just takes what one person or what a company advertises and makes it the standard for that issue with no real info to back up the claims. I was thinking about how many 5. 9s are out there even in the HPCR version in equipment and trucks and do they have similar issues. I don't know any cummins mechanics but I know a cat mechanic and he did say that cat makes sure they 2 micron filtration for thier fuel systems and he hasn't see many issues with thier injectors.

 

[Tinman]

I would think better filtration to help failures related to wear or contamination (water) but not failures related to parts breaking/electronics. It would be helpful to classify what type of failures are happening, but I don't think anyone is doing that. It'd be interesting to hear from II on this.

BHolm: I'm wondering how changing timing or duration changes duty cycle. Increasing rail pressure obvioulsy increases the risk of failure and why I choose not to increase pressure. I can't quite see how changing timing/duration does this. Your example does make a point though.

 

[p-Bar]

I brought this filtration issue a couple years ago. I was at the SEMA show and talked to the engineers at the Bosch booth. They told chrysler to filter with a 5 micron filter and probably due to the crappy lift pumps they settled on the 10. Now they changed that to a 7 go figure.

 

[cerberusiam]

I brought this filtration issue a couple years ago. I was at the SEMA show and talked to the engineers at the Bosch booth. They told chrysler to filter with a 5 micron filter and probably due to the crappy lift pumps they settled on the 10. Now they changed that to a 7 go figure.

What they SHOULD have told you that Bosch's test indicate 3 micon or greater solids in the fuel severely compromise the integrity of the HPCR system. Then again, broadcasting that kind of information in seriously large part of their sales market with the kind of lock there is on fuel production in this country is a good way loose a major portion of your business. THAT is the real "go figure" in all this. :-laf



I believe if you talk to the injector rebuilders most will postulate a major contributor to failure is lack of filtration and lube. Etching seats is a pretty common problem. While there are seat failures due to the constant hammering and metal fatigue, there that type of damage does not occur in the nozzles also.



In some cases, electrical malfunctions can also be traced to lack of filtration in some cases as the whole filter is lubed and cooled by the fuel. A plain dead injector is another problem but those are relatively rare.



There is enough info and plausible theories to suggest that extra filtration down to 2 microns is extremely beneficial. Considering the cost of an AirDog, FASS, or a GDP system in relationship to an injector rebuild/replace, what more could be needed? Considering what we will lay out for turbos, cluthes, TC's, etc, even thinking about extra filtration is riduculous. EVERYTHING, power, reliability, lifetime, etc, starts with the fuel. We wouldn't dare ignore air an oil filters why even consider shorting the fuel filtration?





My . 02

 

[p-Bar]

What they SHOULD have told you that Bosch's test indicate 3 micon or greater solids in the fuel severely compromise the integrity of the HPCR system. Then again, broadcasting that kind of information in seriously large part of their sales market with the kind of lock there is on fuel production in this country is a good way loose a major portion of your business. THAT is the real "go figure" in all this. :-laf



I believe if you talk to the injector rebuilders most will postulate a major contributor to failure is lack of filtration and lube. Etching seats is a pretty common problem. While there are seat failures due to the constant hammering and metal fatigue, there that type of damage does not occur in the nozzles also.



In some cases, electrical malfunctions can also be traced to lack of filtration in some cases as the whole filter is lubed and cooled by the fuel. A plain dead injector is another problem but those are relatively rare.



There is enough info and plausible theories to suggest that extra filtration down to 2 microns is extremely beneficial. Considering the cost of an AirDog, FASS, or a GDP system in relationship to an injector rebuild/replace, what more could be needed? Considering what we will lay out for turbos, cluthes, TC's, etc, even thinking about extra filtration is riduculous. EVERYTHING, power, reliability, lifetime, etc, starts with the fuel. We wouldn't dare ignore air an oil filters why even consider shorting the fuel filtration?





My . 02

I don't think they could have pass emissions without the Bosch HPCR, as you see Ford had to give up on the old hydraulic system to meet smog. Correct me me if I'm wrong. But as Bob4X4 says more electrical issues than anything else . Time will tell

 

[cerberusiam]

I don't think they could have pass emissions without the Bosch HPCR, as you see Ford had to give up on the old hydraulic system to meet smog. Correct me me if I'm wrong. But as Bob4X4 says more electrical issues than anything else . Time will tell

HPCR is not a Bosch trade mark, and, Bosch is not the only company capable of developing said system.





What Bob sees is not neccessarily what others see, nor are the conclusions the same.

 

[magothy1]

How many miles are you all running your 2 micron filters ? I just put on an Air Dog with a 7 micron, had one person tell me he runs his 2 micron filters a year, I was surprised they'd go that long.

 

[sag2]

It would seem obvious that 2 micron is better than 7, and much better 10. Any size debris is going to eventually wear on the pintle and seat. The hardened seat injectors have been in service for at least 2 years now, so if you have replaced any in the last couple of years they should hold up longer. I seem to recall that 2006 trucks were the first to get hardened seat injectors but don't hold me to it. It also would seem obvious that a hardened seat injector would last longer than one without.

The most important things to keep in mind is start with clean fuel, maintain filters, use good clean habits when changing any filter or opening the fuel system, and if using a 2 micron filter only use it in combination with a 10 micron filter or higher (25 is best) to ensure water stripping before the final filter.

 

[JHardwick]

400,000+ miles with factory filtration. The only problem to date was a harness issue that dropped a cylinder 2-3 times one day, 1,000 miles or so away from home ... ... ... scared me enough to send them to F1 for tips :-laf

 

[rbattelle]

The most important things to keep in mind is start with clean fuel, maintain filters, use good clean habits when changing any filter or opening the fuel system, and if using a 2 micron filter only use it in combination with a 10 micron filter or higher (25 is best) to ensure water stripping before the final filter.

As usual, sag2 provides some outstanding advice.



Ryan

 

[Ducman82]

i added a 2 micron filter just for the added protection. If im out in the country, you never know here in Idaho what kinda fuel you could get. not that im ever that far out in no-mans land, but, better safe then sorry. (plus i like changing filters etc..... )

 

[MickeyMiller]

Sag2: "if using a 2 micron filter only use it in combination with a 10 micron filter or higher (25 is best) to ensure water stripping before the final filter. "... . is there a 25mu filter that will fit the stock filter housing?

 

[ROGER/DODGER]

I have the 2 mic Fleetguard filteraton my 06. We tossed the stock filter assembly, just more restriction, but kept the filter housing for heating and water seperation.
The stock fuel filter the way I understand it, doesn't hold the water, it goes to the bottom of the can where it can be drained off.
Unless I'm missing something here, I don't see why you need a stock filter before the 2 micron.

 

[JimB1]

If you're using 2 filters, 2 micron for the final, why is a 25 micron better water stripper than a 7 or 10 micron at the factory canister?

 

[Bob4x4]

The tighter filters are not as good at extracting the wter. Also the 2 mic will plug quicker if it is used as a lone filter. The big rigs have been running a primary and secondary filter set-up for many years,it's nothing new.



Bob