Water For Gas

[JoelMartin]

Have any of you seen this and does it work like they say?

www.waterforgas.com

 

[jkidd]

HHO, browns gas, hydrogen injection. it uses horsepower to generate electricity then creates hydrogen which is burned in your engine.

Hydrogen is more easily ignited than propane. It can work, the bottles tend to get hot. it is mostly a wash= no real gain.
for $200 you can go 600+ miles on diesel.

 

[Bob4x4]

Jim Leonard has been testing a hydrogen generator,and has been happy with the results. I think he will be offering them eventually.



Bob

 

[mjjohnson]

here are my results water4gas

my friend, his father and i have built the electrolyzer to run on our diesels and i am in the first week of testing and have gained 1. 6 mpg so far. i will continue to test under the same driving conditions over and over increasing the vent to let more hydrogen in until i hit a ceiling, then i will build another cell to increase gas. i have read some comments on this site and on others from naysayers, the only problem with there comments is they dont know what there talking about because they have not tried it, dont listen to them, it works. you might look at 1. 6 mpg gain as nothing but that is a 8. 2% gain and every 12 tanks is a free one. this is only the beginning, like i said im still trying to get the most out of this jar before i go with another, trying to be patient, even though i wasn't born with any patience. i have an 03 ctd 3500 4. 10 gears with 126000 miles nd the best mileage as a daily driver was 19. 56now im getting 21. 18 the first test and then after open the bubbler 2 more clicks i got 21. 16 with worse conditions (traffic/ headwind), i am now on third test after opening 2 more clicks to see if there is any increase.

 

[mjjohnson]

tips about building

i always fill my tank up to the overflow(about 2 inches down from the cap) to make sure i get accurate readings every time, otherwise your mileage will be all over the place, this also will take patience as diesel bubbles up then has to go down(about 7 or 8 minutes). one tip to consider is dont use the irrigation barbed 90's. we use a barbed elbow that had a 1/2" mpt on one end, then used a brass pipe cap that we drilled a 1/4 hole in the end of to use as a nut(1/2"fpt). look in the free market place for other ideas on how to build, we found a better design by a guy named adrian morrison and copied it. good luck

 

[mjjohnson]

try this link

Water4Gas--Online Books

 

[LVrooman]

I too am looking into this. At this point the only question that I have is how are you injecting the gas. I have read to inject it just before the turbo but the people who have tried it are not getting enough vacuum to pull the hho into the engine.

 

[mjjohnson]

trial and error

there is a bubbler tube that goes to the bottom of the jar with a sheetrock anchor in the end to restrict the flow of air in the jar. this anchor is cut down and can be cut down even further or taken out if need be. my friend and i have wondered the same thing, if we were getting enough vacuum. the only way to tell is to be able to temporarily mount it outside the engine compartment to see if any bubbles come up from the tube. we dont have a good way to do this so were going to try taking the anchor out to see if there is any improvements. i am building my second cell now and will to continue to tinker with the first one before installing. we have even put a vacuum cap over the one way safety check valve on the lid to mave sure we are not losing any through hydrogen build up, its not real safe but were doing it anyway, we are hoping that when it builds up it will only have one place to go, in the engine. also thought about some kind of 12v air pump to push the gas through. its all trial and error, hope this helps.

 

[LVrooman]

Thanks for the information. That was basically the route I was going to. I was thinking of using an aquarium pump with a small inverter to power it. I am in the process of building mine now. I want to try 2 to start with. Have you seen the updated info of connecting 2 in parallel, winding the anode closer together, and using more baking soda to get more HHO?

 

[mjjohnson]

results?

yes i have and i will be following those same practices when i install my second. post your results when you get them, im interested to see what you get.

 

[TAbbott]

How do you get around the fact that it takes more power to generate the electricity to perform the electrolysis than can be returned from burning the hydrogen and oxygen you get as a result?

 

[LVrooman]

I don't think it is just the hho that gives the increased mpg. In addition to the enegry from the hho, which like you said I don't think is enough on its own to make up the energy used to create the hho, I think the hho cause a more complete burn of the diesel and with the 2 resulting in the gain.

 

[TAbbott]

If there was a large enough volume of the gas, I suppose a quicker burn may advance the timing enough to produce a potentially positive result... . like adding propane to the mix. But what would that volume have to be relative to the huge amounts of air a turbocharged diesel consumes, and the relatively large, when compared to the water volume electrolyzed, amount of fuel our engines require?



If we're lucky, a gallon of fuel will take us about 20 miles. How many gallons of water does this setup go through in --- say 300 miles -- which would require 15 gallons of fuel in the above example?



I just don't see it happening. These types of systems have been around almost forever and no one has ever been able to prove they do much of anything. The ingestion of the water vapor itself would probably do more good in controlling the burn rate and getting energy from the production of steam than the amount of HHO capable of being produced in one of these systems.



Another thing to think about, is that if this would work on it's own (produce a surplus of energy over and above that required to produce it) and the only byproduct of pure hydrogen combustion is water (which it is) then could not one use this surplus of energy to electrolyze that water and repeat the process, thus creating perpetual motion? I don't think so. JMHO.

 

[LVrooman]

I have not tried it yet, but working on it. Your right on the perpetual motion... because you are not making enough HHO to run on it own. As far as amount of water, my understanding is a single cell will be good for about 1000 miles before refilling with water. I will find out..... just experimenting.

 

[okayred]

How do you get around the fact that it takes more power to generate the electricity to perform the electrolysis than can be returned from burning the hydrogen and oxygen you get as a result?

The energy it takes to generate the electricity can be a small drain on your alternator. Optimum increase has been proven with the use of 6 cells. Each cell only uses 2 volts efficiently - the rest is dissipated in heat. With the 6 cells wired in series: Using a total of 12 volts (right from your 12V electrical system), the amp draw is 4 amps per cell, so the highest current is 48A. You would be looking at a 50Amp max drain on the electrical system.



The small amount of hydrogen needed for efficiency in a Diesel isn't a fully hydrogen fueled vehicle. In other words, you aren't running your truck on hydrogen alone - that scenario would call for more electricity than your electrical system could supply. At the point where too much hydrogen (as with propane) is used, it will begin to pre-detonate and you start having problems. The Hydrogen is used only to maximize the combustion of the diesel (and add to the flammability at the same time).



Its more efficient, see, not a replacement.

 

[MOates]

The energy it takes to generate the electricity can be a small drain on your alternator. Optimum increase has been proven with the use of 6 cells. Each cell only uses 2 volts efficiently - the rest is dissipated in heat. With the 6 cells wired in series: Using a total of 12 volts (right from your 12V electrical system), the amp draw is 4 amps per cell, so the highest current is 48A. You would be looking at a 50Amp max drain on the electrical system.



The small amount of hydrogen needed for efficiency in a Diesel isn't a fully hydrogen fueled vehicle. In other words, you aren't running your truck on hydrogen alone - that scenario would call for more electricity than your electrical system could supply. At the point where too much hydrogen (as with propane) is used, it will begin to pre-detonate and you start having problems. The Hydrogen is used only to maximize the combustion of the diesel (and add to the flammability at the same time).



Its more efficient, see, not a replacement.

If your HHO generator is pulling 48 amps off your electrical system, then it's one pi$$-poor design. A well-designed series cell generator, from the reports I've seen, should only pull around 10 amps to make the necessary amount of gas for optimum effect.



This is basically the same idea as adding cetane boost to your fuel tank - a small amount of fuel additive to improve combustion and mileage. As far as the amount necessary - depending on the vehicle, I've seen anywhere from 0. 2 to 1. 0 liter/minute of gas quoted.



I've spoken personally with 3 people at work who have installed one of these units. One gent with a Honda Civic reported a 7 mpg increase.



But as far as the water4gas website - those guys ARE a bunch of scam artists. $95 for a how-to book? Other companies will sell you a complete how-to book - theory, construction, control and power supply circuits, materials and parts list, supplier list - for about $15. One gent from England even posted instructions on how to build his design for FREE download (although his design IMHO is pretty poor).



Try Eagle-Research practical energy solutions... today! , their Hyzor Manual. He also sells a prefab kit based on the manual if you don't want to DIY. It's designed to put out 7. 5 liters/hour or 0. 13 liters/minute pulling 2 1/2 amps - gent says this is a good baseline amount to start with on a 2 to 5 liter engine.

 

[okayred]

If your HHO generator is pulling 48 amps off your electrical system, then it's one pi$$-poor design. A well-designed series cell generator, from the reports I've seen, should only pull around 10 amps to make the necessary amount of gas for optimum effect.

Yes, you will notice I wrote "max" and "the highest current" old chap. Not my designs... Current will depend on how much soda you put in the water or how much HHO you want to make; according to Ohm's law, the current draw will vary indirectly with the amount of resistance.



This is not the same as adding a cetane boost to the fuel. The air inside the chamber is the key, not the fuel used to light off. Fuel additives are not nearly as effective as propane or HHO injection.

 

[Pawpaw]

With the 6 cells wired in series: Using a total of 12 volts (right from your 12V electrical system), the amp draw is 4 amps per cell, so the highest current is 48A. You would be looking at a 50Amp max drain on the electrical system.

If the max current draw for each cell is 4 amps and you wire 6 of them in series, your max draw would be 4 amps.



If you wired them in parallel, with each one drawing 4 amps, the total would be 24 amps.



Current increases when the loads are wired in parallel, not series. In a series circuit, the current is consistent through the whole circuit. Your 6 cells function like a voltage divider, not a current divider.



Bob

 

[MOates]

If the max current draw for each cell is 4 amps and you wire 6 of them in series, your max draw would be 4 amps.



If you wired them in parallel, with each one drawing 4 amps, the total would be 24 amps.



Current increases when the loads are wired in parallel, not series. In a series circuit, the current is consistent through the whole circuit. Your 6 cells function like a voltage divider, not a current divider.



Bob

Exactly. The problem with most of the HHO generators that people are offering is that the cells aren't "sealed" electrically - they just submerge some type of cell arrangement in an electrolyte bath. There's so many leakage paths from positive to negative thru the electrolyte that the 20 or 30 amps they have to dump in to produce gas, only a portion of it is producing gas by going thru the cells - the majority of the current is doing nothing but heating up the water - in essence their unit functions better as a hot water heater than a gas generator.



In the better designs I've seen, the cells are sealed electrically to eliminate or minimize the leakage paths - the only way current can flow is thru the cells. In the Eagle Research book I mentioned, the cell plates are seated in plastic or teflon on the bottom and sides, and the electrolyte level is kept 1" BELOW the tops of the plates, a 1/8" hole drilled in alternating locations at the bottom of each plate to allow electrolyte to flow into each cell while minimizing current leakage, and the main electrical connections for positive and negative are arranged such that there is no physical path thru the electrolyte for current flow between them. In other words, there's no way for current to flow except thru the cells and plates - maximum gas production for minimum current.



People that have copied the principles in the ER book in thier own designs, or used one of the ER Hyzor kits, have reported that they're making more than enough gas for their application on 10 amps or less.



And electrolyte concentration isn't the only method to control current draw now. Some people are using small PWM controllers that can adjust voltage, current, and pulse frequency. ER Hyzor book shows you how to build a simple electronic circuit that will automatically control current draw using Radio Shack parts.

 

[MOates]

This is not the same as adding a cetane boost to the fuel. The air inside the chamber is the key, not the fuel used to light off. Fuel additives are not nearly as effective as propane or HHO injection.

I beg to differ - same basic principle/idea, whether it's cetane boost, propane, or HHO - you're adding small amounts of an additive, catalyst, accelerant, whatever you wish to call it - to the fuel and/or air to improve combustion, efficiency, and fuel mileage.



In this case, I used it as an analogy to help others understand that the engine was not running on hydrogen as the primary fuel, but using small amounts as a combustion aid or enhancer.