Extended Oil Drain

[amsoilman]

iron 263

chromium 5

nickel 2

aluminum 6

copper 252

lead 4

tin 1

cadmium 0

silver 1

titanium 0

vanadium 0

silicon 11

sodium 9

potassium 5

molybdemim 0

antimony 0

manganese 2

lithium 0

boron 2

magnesium 11

calcium 3617

barium 0

phosphorus 1153

zinc 1367



soot 6. 1

water <. 1

vis 16. 9

tbn 6. 87

oxida 34

nitra 29







iron and soot, really high. I changed it out the moment I got home from the body shop.



I'll be checking again in a few thousand miles to ensure the iron was a fluke... ... the soot is expected.

I would certainly haave changed it out also! The Viscosity is certainly out of range for a 40 grade oil, which I would expect given the amount of "SOOT" you have reported. 16. 3 cSt@100 C is the "Minimum" limit for a 50 grade oil! Still has a good TBN, and the additives still look pretty good also, but this oil is certainly OUT of GRADE!



Just my 02 worth.



Wayne

 

[icman95]

I, too, run Amsoil and the dual remote filter and do the analysis thing. I was concerned about the oil pressure when I first installed the remote and did install the direct pressure gauge. It read just about the same as the dashboard gauge, so, at least in my case, the pressure is accurate at a hair abouve 40psi.



My most recent sample had all numbers within parameters except silicon and copper. They said the copper was coming from the oil cooler, as someone else mentioned above. This may sound ignorant, but I wasn't aware there was an oil cooler on my truck. If there is, my bad. If not, then the copper is coming from somewhere else-bearings maybe?



Overall, though, I'm impressed with the oil and filtration other than what I just mentioned. That sample had about 13 months on it in which time about 1/2 the miles were pulling my 5er including a run from CT to SD and back in a week. The rest were around town, short trips-grocery getting, commuting, etc. The lab recommends changing the oil because of the copper. Haven't done it yet, but will get around to it when time allows.

 

[steved]

I, too, run Amsoil and the dual remote filter and do the analysis thing. I was concerned about the oil pressure when I first installed the remote and did install the direct pressure gauge. It read just about the same as the dashboard gauge, so, at least in my case, the pressure is accurate at a hair abouve 40psi.



My most recent sample had all numbers within parameters except silicon and copper. They said the copper was coming from the oil cooler, as someone else mentioned above. This may sound ignorant, but I wasn't aware there was an oil cooler on my truck. If there is, my bad. If not, then the copper is coming from somewhere else-bearings maybe?



Overall, though, I'm impressed with the oil and filtration other than what I just mentioned. That sample had about 13 months on it in which time about 1/2 the miles were pulling my 5er including a run from CT to SD and back in a week. The rest were around town, short trips-grocery getting, commuting, etc. The lab recommends changing the oil because of the copper. Haven't done it yet, but will get around to it when time allows.

Silicon is from dirt (air filter not doing its job) or silicone sealer (any recent engine work?)



Copper is most likely from the oil cooler, which is part of the filterhead assembly... and Amsoil typically causes elevated copper...



And your dashboard gauge is fake, made up by the ECM and will read pressure upon startup for upwards of 3 minutes before it would acknowledge it doesn't have pressure.

 

[amsoilman]

This may sound ignorant, but I wasn't aware there was an oil cooler on my truck. If there is, my bad. If not, then the copper is coming from somewhere else-bearings maybe?

Unless you have high wear numbers in other metals such as Chromium, Tin, Lead, etc. , your Copper is most likely coming from the OIl Cooler as was mentioned.



Here is a document from Caterpiller on High Copper readings:



"Per Caterpillar, high levels of copper found in oil analysis are a result of engine cooler core” leaching". The Zinc additive in Diesel Motor oil reacts with the copper cooler core tubes at high oil temperatures. This chemical reaction results in copper oxidation products forming on the surface of the tubes and then coming off into the oil as it washes over and around the tubes. Heat is a catalyst to this chemical reaction. The higher the oil temperature the greater the rate of oxidation and the longer the reaction process is sustained. This does not cause any damage to the cooler core, or to the engine. However, you will see the copper reading elevate to over 100 PPM. Copper is not a particulate in this case but is in solution in the oil. The PPM will start relatively low and increase over 100 PPM and stay at high levels for several intervals, and then return to normal. During the oxidation process, a hard film forms on the tube surfaces exhibiting the appearance of clear varnish. Changes in operating temperatures, and/or changing oil brands can chemically disrupt this film and begin the oxidative leaching processes again. This can occur in any system with a cooler core: Gasoline or Diesel engines transmissions or hydraulic systems. "

 

[PGreenleaf]

Why does the 03 cummins produce more soot then the later modeles??

 

[PGreenleaf]

Why does the 03 cummins produce more soot then the later modeles??

MY BAD,, I ment why does the 03 cummins produce LESS soot then the later models??

 

[steved]

Why does the 03 cummins produce more soot then the later modeles??

It *should* produce less than the 04. 5+ models since it has less emissions engineered into it... that's the point here.

 

[steved]

MY BAD,, I ment why does the 03 cummins produce LESS soot then the later models??

They don't have the third injection event or the timing to produce the in-head EGR... traps a lot of stuff in the cylinder.

 

[icman95]

Steve and Owen,



Thanks for the info. I know that the oil gauge on the dash is built the way it is, but my mechanical gauge backs up its reading. As far as copper being in solution and not a particulate, that makes me feel better. I was assuming that the silicon was from the air filter itself rather than something it was letting in. I figured that the AFE filter was oil impregnated just like a K&N and the silicon was coming from this. No recent engine work to cause it to come from a gasket sealer. In fact, other than having the valve cover off to replace the injectors 1 1/2 years ago, the engine has never been opened up-knock on wood.



So, bottome line is that the lab is telling me to change my oil just to cover themselves, but if the Cat article above is accurate, then it's possible that the copper reading could go down over time and all is well as is.

 

[AH64ID]

I wish I could keep my soot down. .

This is my report for 10K miles...

#ad


I will do another analysis in 1500 miles, at 15K miles. . . And I am expecting to have to change it. .

I was getting a little excess smoke with my Smarty Jr, but that has been fixed for 6-7K miles, hopefully my soot will stabilize or taper off (as is agglomerates and the bypass picks it up). . Otherwise my only thought its that there was a ton in the motor from the first 10K miles with no bypass.

 

[JasonCzerak]

Are you sure the bypass wasn't plugged????



I have never seen more than 0. 4 soot... even with a bypass with 30k worth of use. To me, that indicates the bypass was inoperative or you have serious issues elsewhere and the bypass is unable to keep up...



Even JHardwick didn't have soot loads like that with higher miles, high mile OCI, tuner, injectors, towing, and no bypass...

I check to see if oil is going back in via the fill cap all the time, it never stopped. I'm assuming that there is no bypass in the filter like the full flow ones to prevent clogging.

 

[steved]

I check to see if oil is going back in via the fill cap all the time, it never stopped. I'm assuming that there is no bypass in the filter like the full flow ones to prevent clogging.

If its Amsoil EaBP series, they don't have a bypass and will plug off/stop flowing.



I almost wonder if you happened to get a faulty filter... again, I have never seen soot more than 0. 4% and that was even with leaky injectors and towing in the mountains...

 

[AH64ID]

If its Amsoil EaBP series, they don't have a bypass and will plug off/stop flowing.



I almost wonder if you happened to get a faulty filter... again, I have never seen soot more than 0. 4% and that was even with leaky injectors and towing in the mountains...

Not according to amsoil. . It will bypass and continue to flow if plugged.

 

[steved]

And forgive me, but I don't think a TBN of 7. 97 is particularly good on oil with only 10k on it... my CJ-4 Rotella with equal miles held up as well.

Didn't the 5w30 HDD start at something like TBN = 14?

 

[steved]

Not according to amsoil. . It will bypass and continue to flow if plugged.

Then they lied to one of us.



I specifically asked this question when the EaBPs came on the scene... I was told BY AMSOIL TECH the EaBP series would not bypass and would simply plug off, so there was no way to run one past its useful life.

 

[AH64ID]

Then they lied to one of us.

I specifically asked this question when the EaBPs came on the scene... I was told BY AMSOIL TECH the EaBP series would not bypass and would simply plug off, so there was no way to run one past its useful life.

I guess I will call back next week. . I called 2 weeks ago to specifically ask if they would stop flow if plugged and was told no. (Well I specifically asked about the bypass in general and the tech brought up the bypass valve. )

 

[amsoilman]

I guess I will call back next week. . I called 2 weeks ago to specifically ask if they would stop flow if plugged and was told no.

Perhaps they (Amsoil) were thinking of the By-pass filter being plugged, would not cause the flow of oil through the "Full-flow" filter to stop.



The EaBP filters do not have a by-pass built into the filter. There is an anti-drain back valve in them however.

I know they recommend changing the By-pass every other full-flow change, up to 60,000 miles if using their oils and full-flow filters. If using other brands of oil or "full-flow" filters, they recommend the By-pass be changed every other full-flow change... ..... period! NOT up to 60,000 miles.



Oils with a good dispersant additive will generally keep soot in the range of

0. 002 to 0. 5 Microns in suspension;detergent additives prevent the buildup of sludge and act as an acid neutralizer, keeping soot in the range of 0. 5 to 1. 5 microns in suspension. These anti-wear additives work by by providing a sacrificial chemical to chemical barrier. Of course as the amount of soot suspended in the oil increases, the performance of these additives decreases.



As to AH64ID's Soot level, I think it is quite high, and I would change the filters, providing the Viscosity and the additives are not "flagged". If the Viscosity has increased to a level over the prescribed range of 9. 3 cSt@100 c to 12. 5cSt@100c.



My 2 cents worth.

 

[AH64ID]

Very interesting, the conversation was specificlly about the EaBP110 and I said I was checking flow with the return cap, and was told that it would bypass so there was no reason, we never even mentioned full flow... so Oh well...

I am going to do another UOA here in 1. 5K and see where its at. If the filters aren't plugged there is no reason to change... (I am still less than the min Amsoil claims I can run the oil w/out a bypass)...

 

[steved]

You still don,t know if the filter you have is good... I would change the bypass filter as well.

 

[amsoilman]

Very interesting, the conversation was specificlly about the EaBP110 and I said I was checking flow with the return cap, and was told that it would bypass so there was no reason, we never even mentioned full flow... so Oh well...



I am going to do another UOA here in 1. 5K and see where its at. If the filters aren't plugged there is no reason to change... (I am still less than the min Amsoil claims I can run the oil w/out a bypass)...

What I meant was;Perhaps they misunderstood your question.