Amsoil BMK-15ea dual filter kit

[RKerner]

The excerpt from the service manual appears to be a little vague. There is literature that states the oil pressure regulator valve recirculates the over-pressure flow back into the pump rather than the sump. This occurred in the 1999 engine and the practice is typical in modern oil pumps.



Anyway, I just installed a BMK-25 in my truck and the "gauge" shows pressure just as fast as it did before the remote filter system. My hoses are only 20" long and the filter mount is the newer die cast unit with only a fixed orifice regulating the bypass filter outlet. I assume most bypass filter systems use a fixed orifice so whether the orifice is right on top of the stock oil filter housing or a few feet away, it is still a metered leak in the pressure side of the oil pump, the same as any of the bearing journals. If the Frantz and Amsoil bypass filter systems work without issue, it would be logical to think that the remote filter systems should perform the same way, right? I mean, the dual remote system is just a bypass filter in parallel with the full flow filter system - just the location of the full flow filter has changed.



It seems BDaughtery's buddy is having a problem that could be install related or otherwise. A search of tdr shows a few more late models having the same type of issue. But, like most forums, positive feedback is usually not represented by the same volume as negative experiences. If anyone can locate an oil flow schematic of an ISB engine, that might help enlighten us on whether there is life sustaining oil pressure provided to the engine prior to the 6psi switch being activated.



BTW, if anyone is installing the BMK-25 in their truck, I have a very simple bracket design that mounts the filter base off of the radiator support body mount - no welding, no drilling, less swearing and only needs a little trim of a plastic deflector.

 

[Cliffman]

The by-pass valve is calibrated

to open when it sees a pressure drop of more than

344 kPa (50 psi) across the oil filter. [/I]

I'm sorry but I don't understand this???? 50 psi drop Please explain.

 

[BDaugherty]

I'm sorry but I don't understand this???? 50 psi drop Please explain.

What that means is that when the pressure on the inlet side of the filter is 50 psi more than on the outlet side, the bypass valve will open allowing oil to go around the filter. The idea is that unfiltered oil cools, cleans, and lubricates better than no oil.





Also, I was not accurate about the bypass valve. I've used, but never opened up a EaO filter. Amsoilman was right on the money about those filters. I've got a Donaldson endurance filter from my Cummins downstairs that I'll be cutting open soon. I guess that's what I get for running my mouth.

 

[brods]

BDaugherty you were correct! These statements are quoted out of an email from Fleetguard:

The LF16035 does not have a bypass in the filter. The LF16035 is a full flow oil filter.

Here are some pictures of the Stratapore next to the Mopar filter. The same except for the element material. No bypass valve in either one. I don’t see an anti siphon valve either.

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I have also ran a test on my 05's oil warning system. It takes a full 31 seconds from when the truck starts to when the check gauges warning light and chimes come on!!! The idiot gauge goes right up over 40 psi at startup stays there until the warning sounds when it drops to zero. It didn’t make any difference to simulate fluctuating oil pressure, it took 31 seconds of continuos low pressure to sound the warning. Great system.



Um... . that doesn’t sound like it reacts too quickly to me!

 

[SShafranko]

I was going to start a thread about this but this seems to be the perfect place for it. gotta warn you though its going to be long!



Few months ago i bought two BMK-25 kits for my 06 trucks. I mounted one kit behind the front bumper and the other on the frame just behind the cab. The truck with the bumper kit is a long bed so i will refer to it as "Long" in the reast of the post and the other truck is a short bed, "short". Short started to experience no oil pressure at start up immediately after install and it ocuured every single morning and during the day if it sat for longer than approximately half hour. LONG started experiencing the same three weeks after the install and continued to do so once per week and sometimes twice as it got colder out or so it seemed. I knew this because the check gauges light was lit and oil pressure was at 0. I immediately contacted Amsoil to get anwsers and also posted here. The anwser i got was that it was normal do the sensitive oil pressure system in the 04. 5 and up trucks. Do not drive with it just let it idle until pressure comes back.



I was very uncomfortable about this and Amsoil was nice enough to replace both kits with a new single bypass which i am running on both trucks now. OK HERE COMES THE JUICY PART!



After some routine maintenance on Short, i checked the HTT turbo shaft by pulling it in and out and found that it had a lot of play. I sent it back to HTT last week to be checked out. At no time did i mention to them that i had any type of bypass kit on the truck.



I have a wonderful e-mail from Dave Lovelace at HTT stating: "Turbo failure is the result of insuficient oil to the thrust bearing, journal bearings also showed signs of lack of lube too with heat transfer to the shaft. The oil that was in the turbo does not show contamination just a little bit of soot from increasewd fueling. This may have been a periodic or brief hickup in the system. "



My two cents: Stay away from that kit! I didn't by my truck so that i could sit there idling until my oil pressure gats to a safe level so that i can drive away. Two things keep revolving around in my head:



1) How many miles/hours of life did i take away from my engine?



2) I still use Amsoil in my engine, trans. , rear, etc. but it makes me wonder a company which deals with only lubricants and filters cannot design a dual bypass system to work CORRECTLY in my sensitive oiling systemed truck? How could that be?



Needless to say i will be paying $500. 00 to rebuild my HTT 64/13 do to "You were not getting a sufficient amount of oil to the turbo at some point in time. "



SO MUCH FOR THE TESTING DONE IN CONJUCTION WITH DODGE. MAYBE THE TESTING SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE WITH CUMMINS INSTEAD, IF THERE WAS ANY.

 

[BDaugherty]

Thanks brods. I've never seen a bypass valve in a oil filter, but I've also never cut open a EaO filter. I've cut open lots of CAT filters as well as some A/C Delco and the Hastings that I use on my truck. I guess in a way, we were both right. I don't think the Dodge Cummins requires a anti-drainback vavle due to the way the filter is mounted. Oil will not defy gravity in order to drain back to the pan. However, in some applications, it's vital. Such as my buddy's old Toyota Camry with the filter mounted nearly vertical with the opening at the bottom. I guess Amsoil puts all the goodies in every filter.

I speculate that the bypass is included for one or both of the following reasons:

1: Due to customers running extended drain intervals, there is more chance that the filter could plug.

2: Due to the "tighter" filtration, more restriction may be experienced.



I don't have a bypass on my truck... I don't even use Amsoil in the engine. In my particular case, it's not worth it to me. I service the engine with CL4+ every 5K and uses Hastings filters that I get great pricing on. However, I currently use it in 3 other vehicles that I maintain including my wife's suburban which I expect to last for a LONG time.



One last thing that I'd like to see is the opening pressure specs in writing for the internal bypass valve the EaO filter for the ISB Cummins application.

 

[Cliffman]

I was going to start a thread about this but this seems to be the perfect place for it. gotta warn you though its going to be long!



Few months ago i bought two BMK-25 kits for my 06 trucks. I mounted one kit behind the front bumper and the other on the frame just behind the cab. The truck with the bumper kit is a long bed so i will refer to it as "Long" in the reast of the post and the other truck is a short bed, "short". Short started to experience no oil pressure at start up immediately after install and it ocuured every single morning and during the day if it sat for longer than approximately half hour. LONG started experiencing the same three weeks after the install and continued to do so once per week and sometimes twice as it got colder out or so it seemed. I knew this because the check gauges light was lit and oil pressure was at 0. I immediately contacted Amsoil to get anwsers and also posted here. The anwser i got was that it was normal do the sensitive oil pressure system in the 04. 5 and up trucks. Do not drive with it just let it idle until pressure comes back.



I was very uncomfortable about this and Amsoil was nice enough to replace both kits with a new single bypass which i am running on both trucks now. OK HERE COMES THE JUICY PART!



After some routine maintenance on Short, i checked the HTT turbo shaft by pulling it in and out and found that it had a lot of play. I sent it back to HTT last week to be checked out. At no time did i mention to them that i had any type of bypass kit on the truck.



I have a wonderful e-mail from Dave Lovelace at HTT stating: "Turbo failure is the result of insuficient oil to the thrust bearing, journal bearings also showed signs of lack of lube too with heat transfer to the shaft. The oil that was in the turbo does not show contamination just a little bit of soot from increasewd fueling. This may have been a periodic or brief hickup in the system. "



My two cents: Stay away from that kit! I didn't by my truck so that i could sit there idling until my oil pressure gats to a safe level so that i can drive away. Two things keep revolving around in my head:



1) How many miles/hours of life did i take away from my engine?



2) I still use Amsoil in my engine, trans. , rear, etc. but it makes me wonder a company which deals with only lubricants and filters cannot design a dual bypass system to work CORRECTLY in my sensitive oiling systemed truck? How could that be?



Needless to say i will be paying $500. 00 to rebuild my HTT 64/13 do to "You were not getting a sufficient amount of oil to the turbo at some point in time. "



SO MUCH FOR THE TESTING DONE IN CONJUCTION WITH DODGE. MAYBE THE TESTING SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE WITH CUMMINS INSTEAD, IF THERE WAS ANY.

This is some crazy stuff, and scary as hell! Here's my 2 cents. I do question the results form HTT and here's why... It's hard to believe that such damage could be caused due to low or 0 oil pressure for a few seconds at startup unless you're revving the engine up at startup which I doubt. Also, when I rebuilt my engine I had a 0 oil pressure problem which later turned out to be a missing oil journal plug that the machine shop forgot to install. This was a ¾ plug that was feeding the front main bearing and the whole cam shaft. Now, here's the good part, during our testing to find out why we had 0 oil pressure we pulled off the oil line going from the top of the oil filter housing to the turbo, started the truck and there was oil flowing from that line. Granted it was LOW flow but never the less oil was flowing from the filter housing to the turbo. We put a gauge right there on the filter housing and the pressure read 2-4 PSI and the pressure at the sending unit was 0. I had these engines apart a few time and I know the oil pump pulls from the sump and goes directly to the filter housing which is less than 6" way from the pump. The oil then goes through the housing, through the filter, back up though the housing and then through the engine. There's a built in bypass in the filter housing and if the Amsoil system was not working properly the bypass would kick in and continue to flow oil.

 

[brods]

... .

Anyway, I just installed a BMK-25 in my truck and the "gauge" shows pressure just as fast as it did before the remote filter system. .....

As the test on my 05 showed, the stock idiot gauge will indicate oil pressure at startup even if there is none. So making any judgement because of what the gauge says is risky.

... . If the Frantz and Amsoil bypass filter systems work without issue, it would be logical to think that the remote filter systems should perform the same way, right? I mean, the dual remote system is just a bypass filter in parallel with the full flow filter system - just the location of the full flow filter has changed. .....

It would be easy to think that, but it is not the case. The stock system pumps the oil through the cooler, then the filter and into the engine. Tapping a bypass filter off the stock filter head simply bleeds off a tiny amount of oil just before it enters the engine and has very little effect. Oil flows through the bypass element because the inlet side is at full oil pressure and the outlet side is open to the pan, so it is at 0 psi.



Installing a dual remote kit is like adding a crazy straw between the cooler and the filter and then another one between the filter and the engine. The oil has flow through the hoses and fittings and change direction going around corners and bends. All that in itself creates some restriction or resistance to flow. This is why Amsoil wisely bumped up the hose and fitting diameters, to lessen, but not eliminate the resistance to flow caused by all the fittings and hose.



The bypass filter in the dual remote is piped in parallel with the main oil feed to the engine. This is like teeing into the oil supply hose, running through the bypass filter and connecting back to the oil supply hose right next to the inlet connection. When oil flows through the oil supply hose nothing will go through the bypass filter. This is because the pressure at the bypass filter inlet is the same as the pressure at its outlet. So in order to make the oil flow through the bypass filter you have to pinch the oil supply hose between the bypass filter inlet and outlet. The harder you pinch, the more back pressure you’ll create on the inlet side and the greater the amount of oil that will be forced through the bypass filter. This is what happens inside the dual remote filter head. They have to have some kind of restriction in the main oil feed to the engine to force some oil to flow through the bypass filter. On the old BMK-15 it was a spring loaded valve inside the filter head which created this back pressure.



So as you see, between the added resistance from the hoses and fittings plus the restriction inside the filter head it is not the same as connecting a standalone bypass filter to the port on the stock filter head.





In all fairness, once the oil pressure is up, the dual remote system is pretty slick. Unfortunately one has to start the truck and that is when the trade-offs become apparent. It may also be something with the engine’s oiling system that is causing the problems due to the dual remote’s extra resistance or extra volume, like if the oil pump somehow loses prime after sitting for a while. Regardless, it is clear there is an issue on some trucks and after all these years it is confusing that Amsoil hasn’t looked into it further or hasn’t supplied a better explanation of what is going on..... yet they continue to sell these kits.

 

[brods]

Thanks brods. I've never seen a bypass valve in a oil filter, but I've also never cut open a EaO filter. I've cut open lots of CAT filters as well as some A/C Delco and the Hastings that I use on my truck. I guess in a way, we were both right. I don't think the Dodge Cummins requires a anti-drainback vavle due to the way the filter is mounted. Oil will not defy gravity in order to drain back to the pan. However, in some applications, it's vital. Such as my buddy's old Toyota Camry with the filter mounted nearly vertical with the opening at the bottom. I guess Amsoil puts all the goodies in every filter.

I speculate that the bypass is included for one or both of the following reasons:

1: Due to customers running extended drain intervals, there is more chance that the filter could plug.

2: Due to the "tighter" filtration, more restriction may be experienced.



I don't have a bypass on my truck... I don't even use Amsoil in the engine. In my particular case, it's not worth it to me. I service the engine with CL4+ every 5K and uses Hastings filters that I get great pricing on. However, I currently use it in 3 other vehicles that I maintain including my wife's suburban which I expect to last for a LONG time.



One last thing that I'd like to see is the opening pressure specs in writing for the internal bypass valve the EaO filter for the ISB Cummins application.

I believed as Wayne did and still do believe most oil filters have internal bypass valves, though that assumption is not based on any hard evidence. Part of the reason they are there is to protect the oil filter element itself from failing due to excessive pressure.



From my crank without starting to get oil pressure testing I have to wonder if our filters do siphon down. It seemed to take way too long to get pressure if the pump and filter stayed full.

 

[Ducman82]

ok, so with my bypass, on a cold start up, my oil pressure gugage (hooked up to filter head) stays at 0 for about 2-2. 5 seconds, jumps to 20 then after about 2 more seconds, goes to 60. sounds like the internal bypass is working ok there. and thats with a fleetguard filter with no valveing.

 

[TCDiesel]

This cooler is supplied by the Turbo line than cooled and returned to the turbo. It has pressure and volume even when cranking. has anyone install a pressure gage on the return line from the filter head. The gage on the dash worthless it even lowers the oil pressure as the coolant temp begins to rise. #@$%!

 

[Ducman82]

That is a nice idea TWest. did you do that to help keep the turbo cooler? how did you splice it in to the line to the turbo?

 

[TCDiesel]

I had the lines made, when your using Turbo(s) it drop the temps 50-80* (oil) the fittings are common and can be purchased at any hydraulic store, it's the hose that needs to be special, it needs to meet max temp of 400* and of course be oil resident. When I was running twins,I did not like the oil temps 340/360 on regular basis. I now have just a single SS-62/12-71 II Oil temp 260-300.

 

[Ducman82]

where are you measuring your oil temp from? guage? where did you place the sender? i use a guage and placed the sender inline with my bypass filter. oil temp is always around the coolent temp when hot

 

[RKerner]

I will be installing a gauge in the tap on top of the filter housing this week - I'm assuming since it is in the center of the housing, it is the return side of the original filter which is the same as the return line from the remote filter setup.



Thanks for the explanation brods. I understand the pressure differentials in order to promote flow and that adding hose and fittings and such adds to the flow "length" as that is basic fluid flow stuff. Funny thing is if you go to the amsoil site, they have pix of a bunch of installs including ones behind the passenger side front seat on the frame. That seems to be a pretty long distance to run the pressure side of the system. Some of the systems also include a pre-oiler which seems to be a band aid for the symptoms some have after installing this system.



If I find anything interesting this week with oil pressure, I'll post it here.



Does anyone know the specs on the oil pump and has anyone found a flow schematic yet? I can calculate the time it would take to fill the hoses and filters and return the flow to the engine if I had the pump info. That would give one an idea of how long it would take to reach operating pressure in a normally operating system. I'm not sure how a positive displacement pump would lose prime with the pickup submersed - I think the film friction of the oil and the "thumb on the top of the straw" effect would keep oil available to the pump at startup.

 

[brods]

RKerner, here is what I've posted in other threads: "The only place I could find specs on oil flow rate was here: 96-98 engine specs and it lists 20 GPM but no reference to at what rpm. Lets assume it is at or close to max rpms, say 3,000 and that the 3Gs pump the same as older motors. Since the oil pump is a positive displacement type the flow rate is directly tied to rpms. So 3,000 engine revolutions equals 20 gallons. Then 150 revolutions equals 1 gallon. So 38 revolutions equals 1 quart.



That means the engine will have to turn over about 38 times to pump 1 quart into the filter. Does not sound practical by bumping the starter. Even if the 20 gpm spec was at idle the engine would have to turn about 10 revolutions to pump a quart. "



And from the crank until oil pressure thread: "Did some preliminary testing and after sitting for a few days it looks like the engine has to be cranked minimum of 30 seconds to register any pressure at the filter head. One equipment manual with the 5. 9 recommends to operate the starter for up 15 seconds at a time and after every 30 seconds of cranking allow the starter to cool down for 2 minutes before cranking again.



Some rough estimations: normal starting of the engine brings the oil pressure up in 3 to 5 seconds. Thats about 35 to 60 engine revolutions under load. Cranking the starter for 30 to 45 seconds is about 100 to 150 engine revolutions (assuming about 200 rpm during cranking). "







I've been trying to find a picture of the crank gear that drives the oil pump to see how many teeth are on it. I have the tooth count for the other two gears. Somewhere I saw the displacement of the oil pump and was going to use it to estimate the flow rate at various rpms.



One would assume that the oil pump will stayed primed and the filter full, in which case the oil pressure should climb fairly quickly. My playing around doesn't bear that out. About the only explanation I can think of is the pump is losing prime. Here is why I think that. I shut the truck off and let it sit for 5 minutes. I think we can all agree that after 5 minutes there would be no residual pressure anywhere in the oil system. When the engine is cranked w/o starting, in 4 seconds there is 20 psi on the gauge. After sitting 12 minutes it cranked 7 seconds and only got about 0. 4 psi on the gauge. After sitting 34 minutes it cranked for 9. 5 seconds and never showed any pressure. I haven't pursued it with more rigorous testing because I've decided that cranking the starter until the oil pressure rises is not for me.



I think you're on the right track, though if there is internal leakage where the oil pump seals to the block passages or the pickup it may be allowing some trucks to lose prime or the system to drain down while others don't

 

[TCDiesel]

Brods I hear Ya, But the Turbo line has pressure and Volume When Cranking, I wonder if that is design that way while the rest of the system must wait until started.

Ducman82, I have taken the Temp from the filter head, before the turbo after the cooler, drain tube to crank case, and finally Pan, after all of this the hottest reading was from the filter head on the block, so that were it is Now.

 

[Ducman82]

did you use a thermal gun or guage?

 

[AH64ID]

One would assume that the oil pump will stayed primed and the filter full, in which case the oil pressure should climb fairly quickly. My playing around doesn't bear that out. About the only explanation I can think of is the pump is losing prime. Here is why I think that. I shut the truck off and let it sit for 5 minutes. I think we can all agree that after 5 minutes there would be no residual pressure anywhere in the oil system. When the engine is cranked w/o starting, in 4 seconds there is 20 psi on the gauge. After sitting 12 minutes it cranked 7 seconds and only got about 0. 4 psi on the gauge. After sitting 34 minutes it cranked for 9. 5 seconds and never showed any pressure. I haven't pursued it with more rigorous testing because I've decided that cranking the starter until the oil pressure rises is not for me.

Yes I would say its bleeding off... But not pressure as pressure is gone as soon as the pump stops. But the oil from the lines drains back to the pan, which is why your supposed to wait 15 minutes before checking your oil after you shut the truck off...



The style pump that the oil pump is is more effective as rpms increase, meaning you cant slow it to 70 rpms and get 1/10 the flow as 700 rpms... It doesn't produce the suction needed.

 

[TCDiesel]

Gage the one the left is Oil Temp the other is rear Axle Temp.