GM Ceases Medium-Duty Truck Production

[TFucili]

I had an 8. 1 w/Ally in an '04 Chevy. It got 8 mpg pulling the same box trailer that my CTD gets about 12 pulling, and hunted quite a bit on the hills. Within 1,200 miles the transmission started acting up, and nobody at the sorry-azz dealer, nor at Gimmick Motors(now Government Motors)could be bothered to fix it. I was without it for months, to no end. I finally went through Lemon Law proceedings and prevailed. Every GM vehicle I have owned has been a POS, one of which was an '82 C-30 rollback with a 454 4-spd. It was a dog, but it did get better mpg than my '04 8. 1! I won't give Dodge a free pass, though, as my truck is in the shop for ball joints and possibly wheel bearings at 37K miles, and the stutter-shifting trans is about to drive me to drink(DTT shift enhancer pending) As for the original post, medium duty trucks seem to be very regional. When I lived on the east coast, there were tons of GM mediums with 366 and 427 gassers(a few 350s), and the lazy 8. 2 Detroit, then later the 3126 Cat. Any American industrial production is a shame to lose, in my book. We'll be in a world of shyt when we need to rely on our enemies to build stuff for us.

 

[surfbeetle]

Alan,
Come talk to me when you have had SEVEN INJECTION PUMPS in less than 130,000 miles. My 1997 Diesel CHEVROLET Suburban which was made by GM if I remember correctly. If you have only had one IP on your truck, consider yourself lucky. Yes most of my pumps were under warranty, but the rental cars, tows, time off of work dealing with this weren't covered. Then there's the $1500 for the A/C, 500 for the power steering pulley, 500 for the fan hub, all of the broken door locks, the failing ABS controller. I could go on. GM Sux!
BTW My sister has a '99 24 valve, the IP went at 80,000. She is on pump #2. My 12 valve is the best vehicle I have ever owned!

 

[JUeckert]

So basically you are saying I have a lemon..... I have the lemon with the poorest factory trans,a weak front-end,a Dodge designed lift pump that sucks,the usual dash cracking issues and now an $1100 VP44 that no one else has ever changed at all. This truck has flat out the best trailer towing characteristics of any vehicle I have ever driven,BUT,it is at a cost. The only reason I keep it!!



Your 01',if I recall,had the 6spd manual. So you didn't have to deal with the anemic 47RE transmission and suck-***** TC. But after reading many of your posts,you did replace your 48RE with a full billet HTT... so you did have to deal with the sorry trannies that Dodge offered.



I can buy an awful lot of exhaust manifolds for my lousy GM V8. The fuel mileage?Gas motors are closing the gap on the diesel market mileage in that dept. also. There have been write-ups in the TDR mag that have used general math to solve equations to come up with the conclusion that we due pay for the priviledge to drive a diesel pick-up.



As far as comparing the costs of ownership pinning the 8. 1 vs. the ISB. We all know the 8. 1 will not make it that far... . but in my defense,I purchased a gas MH while I am still working and only use it once maybe twice a month. I avg. between 7K to 9K a yr with my MH so I will have to own it for 12yrs before reaching 100K miles. I'm sure it will be long gone from my driveway by that time and I'll let the next owner worry about it.



If I can afford to drive my Cummins for another 170K miles,I will let you know about operating costs. I should be good from now on though,Damn,I've replaced all of the major problematic Dodge and Cummins misgivings. Life should be easier from this point forward with my truck.





Alan

alan, your wrong about 2 things. the lift pump on the isb engines were cummins baby, not dodges. seen several fail on 2ton fords, aswell as various pieces of equipment. second correction[sorry to be blunt] with resonable care your 8. 1 should go well beyond 100k miles, seen many non od, carbed 454 hit 200k, and still run fine. a 454 i had in 1ton gmc went to 225k before retireing it, several of my mediums [both 427 and 454] have/had over 200k on them. the only medium gasser i have left is an 86 model with over 275k on it, still runs good. my best friends parents were the original owners of blackburn syrup of texas. they ran single axle gm's all through the 80's as delivery trucks . 454,427,366

powered trucks with over 300k on them were routine.

 

[AClayton]

I actually did think the lift pump was Dodge but that was info I may have screwed upI do however realize the 8. 1 is good for 200K. My post was directed at HB's comparison to the ISB going 300K. I do not know of a gas MH with 300K so I could not refute his point,But,I can say that my 8. 1 has been a lot less problematic than my Cummins. Aside from the aftermarket parts that make my truck breathe better,i have spent money on the dash,lift pump,sorry ***** 47re and now a lift pump to keep my truck running. The font-end IS Dodge and I have been through that as well. Again,I love my truck and once all the bugs are worked out,it may go 300K with no further problems.



As far as me needing to consider myself lucky to own a vehicle with parts costing as much as a semi... . I doThe bragging rights of this pulling machine must be enough for me to keep it,but as the wallet gets lighter,the wife starts hating the truck even more.



There is no way my RV would keep up with my truck pulling the same load up a grade..... but a stock Cummins loaded with the same GCWR and you just try and pass me on a 6%gradeI know I'll use more gas to do the same work,but like I said,our Govt. is making it tough for diesels to have the advantage on fuel mileage.



Anyway,you guys keep on bashing the 8. 1..... GM's lousy V8. But be careful when you compare power ratings. It is rated at 340hp and 455ft. lbs. My 01' Cummins is 235 and 460ft. lbs. Bring your stock Cummins and load it its legal GCWR and let me spank you on the Interstate:-laf

I know the newer Cummins have more power but at the expense of poorer mileage... . I have read enough in the Towing /RV forum to gather up enough mileage reports to realize your are only a few points above what I get. My crankcase only holds 6qts of oil and the parts do not cost the same as a dumptruck to maintain. Maybe when I'm retired I will justify the expense of owning a diesel RV,but right now,I'll stick with my lousy GM V8 and as an added bonus... . stay in the fast lane on those difficult 6% grades and watch the Powerstroke owners in my rear-view mirror..... maybe even a few Cummins truck's.



Alan

 

[Ncostello]

Our 2004 GMC 8500 Cat C7 Allison truck is a great truck... as a fire department tanker. This is bad news to me. Ford's 650 and 750 do not compare or compete with a tandem axle GMC 8500. Comparable Internationals are about $8000 more. Kenworths and Freightshakers are more than that. Thats a HUGE savings to a fire departement (or anyone).



This GMC saved us money and is a capable truck using the same engine, transmission, axles and components as the more expensive brands. The turning radius is amazing and the reliablility is fine. The interior is based upon the GM fullsize vans as is the cab structure. The tilt front doghouse makes it the "big truck". So engine access is a little tougher due to the engine set back (think vans). But everyone else is doing the same. Short front overhangs are the new thing. You have to access more from the removable interior floor than in the past. Sterlings always had the best access to the engine... but even they are going away.



Don't worry everyone... as soon as the Government shuts down the private industry in America and legislates from the bench until Cat, Cummins, Pete and everyone can't build a truck... we'll all be driving Benz and Iveco trucks here. Just like England!!! Along with their healthcare system!!

 

[HBarlow]

So basically you are saying I have a lemon..... I have the lemon with the poorest factory trans,a weak front-end,a Dodge designed lift pump that sucks,the usual dash cracking issues and now an $1100 VP44 that no one else has ever changed at all. This truck has flat out the best trailer towing characteristics of any vehicle I have ever driven,BUT,it is at a cost. The only reason I keep it!!

Your 01',if I recall,had the 6spd manual. So you didn't have to deal with the anemic 47RE transmission and suck-***** TC. But after reading many of your posts,you did replace your 48RE with a full billet HTT... so you did have to deal with the sorry trannies that Dodge offered.

I can buy an awful lot of exhaust manifolds for my lousy GM V8. The fuel mileage?Gas motors are closing the gap on the diesel market mileage in that dept. also. There have been write-ups in the TDR mag that have used general math to solve equations to come up with the conclusion that we due pay for the priviledge to drive a diesel pick-up.

As far as comparing the costs of ownership pinning the 8. 1 vs. the ISB. We all know the 8. 1 will not make it that far... . but in my defense,I purchased a gas MH while I am still working and only use it once maybe twice a month. I avg. between 7K to 9K a yr with my MH so I will have to own it for 12yrs before reaching 100K miles. I'm sure it will be long gone from my driveway by that time and I'll let the next owner worry about it.

If I can afford to drive my Cummins for another 170K miles,I will let you know about operating costs. I should be good from now on though,Damn,I've replaced all of the major problematic Dodge and Cummins misgivings. Life should be easier from this point forward with my truck.


Alan

Nope, I'm not saying anything at all about your Dodge, or, for that matter, about your GM motorhome. My point is I have not experienced the kinds of problems you reported with your Dodge.

Yes, my '01 was an HO/6 spd. I had driven and didn't want to own a 47RE but not because it was weak or unreliable, I simply didn't like the loose slipping torque converter and inability to use an exhaust brake with one.

I did have a full DTT transmission built for my '06 but not because the transmission was of poor quality. The factory stock 48RE was actually a very good transmission. Mine lost the tailshaft rear seal at around 135,000 miles because an aluminum tailshaft bushing slipped out of tailshaft and allowed the tailshaft to wobble and take out the seal. The rest of the transmission was perfect. I was hauling commercially at the time and pulling lots of heavy trailers and expected to continue for another couple years. I feared I had damaged the transmission because I was pulling a heavy trailer when the fluid got low due to the major leak from the transmission so decided to have the DTT rebuild done. When it was disassembled running it very low on transmission fluid had caused no harm. I could have simply had the bushing and seal replaced and put it back together. With the benefit of hindsight I now conclude that the full DTT was an expensive and unnecessary upgrade. I quit transporting by the end of 2007 and sold the truck in early 2008 when I bought a C&C.

No need for you to justify the purchase of your GM motorhome. If it works for you it's fine with me. I make no comments about your choice only generalities about the GM bigblock.

I won't agree about gas motors closing the fuel economy gap. A gasoline motor that is capable of towing/hauling a load even remotely approximating what a Cummins can do is never going to come close in fuel mileage while working or cruising except in the manufacturer's claims in colorful brochures. A diesel engine, because of its compression ratio, turbocharger, and long stroke in a Cummins combined with the much greater energy content of diesel fuel compared to gas is always going to be some 30% more efficient.

I do not accept the calculation that states it is more expensive to own a diesel unless the calculation is based on 100k miles or less. If the decision of gas v. diesel is for a commuter car that hauls a light boat to the lake on summer weekends or a brief vacation trip with a light weight conventional travel trailer and the truck is traded every four years or so I might agree. But not for a working truck with a long service life.

If you cut the life cycle comparison off at 100k miles it may be hard to justify a diesel engine in a light truck unless it is used daily for heavy hauling. But if you compare operating costs for 300k or even 500k miles figuring the additional cost to purchase a diesel, cost of service, and then the trade in value of the diesel truck at 300k or 500k miles there is no comparison. The gas motor won't run 200k miles if it is working hard and will never make it to 300k or 500k miles in any case.

If V8 gas motors were fuel or cost efficient OTR trucking fleets would use them. Obviously, they don't.

 

[HBarlow]

I actually did think the lift pump was Dodge but that was info I may have screwed upI do however realize the 8. 1 is good for 200K. My post was directed at HB's comparison to the ISB going 300K. I do not know of a gas MH with 300K so I could not refute his point,But,I can say that my 8. 1 has been a lot less problematic than my Cummins. Aside from the aftermarket parts that make my truck breathe better,i have spent money on the dash,lift pump,sorry ***** 47re and now a lift pump to keep my truck running. The font-end IS Dodge and I have been through that as well. Again,I love my truck and once all the bugs are worked out,it may go 300K with no further problems.

As far as me needing to consider myself lucky to own a vehicle with parts costing as much as a semi... . I doThe bragging rights of this pulling machine must be enough for me to keep it,but as the wallet gets lighter,the wife starts hating the truck even more.

There is no way my RV would keep up with my truck pulling the same load up a grade..... but a stock Cummins loaded with the same GCWR and you just try and pass me on a 6%gradeI know I'll use more gas to do the same work,but like I said,our Govt. is making it tough for diesels to have the advantage on fuel mileage.

Anyway,you guys keep on bashing the 8. 1..... GM's lousy V8. But be careful when you compare power ratings. It is rated at 340hp and 455ft. lbs. My 01' Cummins is 235 and 460ft. lbs. Bring your stock Cummins and load it its legal GCWR and let me spank you on the Interstate:-laf
I know the newer Cummins have more power but at the expense of poorer mileage... . I have read enough in the Towing /RV forum to gather up enough mileage reports to realize your are only a few points above what I get. My crankcase only holds 6qts of oil and the parts do not cost the same as a dumptruck to maintain. Maybe when I'm retired I will justify the expense of owning a diesel RV,but right now,I'll stick with my lousy GM V8 and as an added bonus... . stay in the fast lane on those difficult 6% grades and watch the Powerstroke owners in my rear-view mirror..... maybe even a few Cummins truck's.

Alan

Alan,

Your big block gasser may be rated to produce 455 ft. lbs. of torque but you failed to mention what rpm it produces that peak torque at. As you must know, it probably achieves that level of torque at 3400-3600 rpm ONLY which means foot to the floor tach up close to the redline on every grade and as the tach needle spins clockwise, the gas gauge spins counter clockwise. All Cummins ISBs since the 2001 produce that much torque at 1600 rpm which means loafing up the grades in top gear. The Cummins engine since 2004 produces over 600 ft. lbs. of torque @ 1600 rpm, the ISB6. 7 in the new pickups produces that much torque at only 1500 rpm.

You're engaging in self-deception if you think any Cummins-powered Ram at a comparable combined weight can't pass your motorhome on a grade!

 

[AClayton]

Harvey,



I know the Cummins is a superior engine... . I have one!!This has just been a bad month for my truck... . the transmission AND the inj. pump went bad in a matter of only 3 weeksBoth high dollar items..... planning on trying to save for the poor economy and be pro-active. A major setback to say the least but I will make it ok. As I said before,now that everything has been replaced,my truck should be reliable from this point forward.



As for my MH... . my challenge still stands!That thing does have some power and it will surprise you. You are correct in stating that I need to be at a higher rpm... . but certainly not redline. 3500 to 4000 will allow me to ascend up ANY grade and maintain spd. It also comfortably cruises at a very efficient 2200rpm's at 65mph. Not that much different in final gearing than a Cummins with the lower 4:10 ratio. That is a true testament to the real power this gas engine has. It has a long stroke and is designed for torque and not speed plus it is very quiet. I still think it is a great motor and an excellent performer.





Alan

 

[JUeckert]

low rpm trq is useless unless the truck is geared to run in that rpm range at highway speeds. most trucks [light duty] simply are not geared that way. i think it's safe to say that nearly every user on this site wants their truck to pull it's best at or near highway speeds, why?, because that's where it spends most it's time. at speeds in the 60 to 70 mph range, any truck with pulling gears of 3. 73 or better, will be at rpms higher then 1400 in od. these trucks are not 18 wheelers with the benifit of multi geared transmissions and engines with lots of cubes. to effeciently launch a trailer, you need a comb of trq and gear ratio's, trq itself wont cut the mustard. cummins extended the rpm spread[ trq band] on these engine for this very reason. the rotary 12v had a small band, the inline 12v was at bit better, the 24 v even better, and then the common rail. i can come up with several people who use a 4500/5600 transmission equipped dodge to haul heavy trailers. most complain about the trucks inability to back a heavy trailer without feathering the clutch and shooting the fuel to it. the engine certainly has the trq, it just has some lacking in the gear ratio of the transmission. the 12v equipped 3500hd in my sig, will not launch a trailer as good as any of the 94 and earlier gm diesel trucks i have will. the 12v has a bit more trq at a lower rpm then the 6. 5 does, and quite a bit more then the 6. 2 powered trucks do, yet the gm's will launch a trailer in forward or reverse better then any of my dodges will. [ manual to manual comparison]

 

[Ncostello]

Good freaking riddance to GM. I have never owned a damn one of their vehicles and now, with it being a government run company I SURE as hell will never own one!

Dieselnut59... I take it you'll never own another Dodge then since they too are completely Government run? I'd suspect they'll get rid of the vehicles we like anyhow.



Why all the talk about pickups? This is about Medium Duty trucks... not pickups. There are lots of places to discuss pickups on this site!



I've owned Chevy, Dodge GMC and Ford trucks. I currently have a Chevy and a Dodge. Seems like I end up with more Dodges than any other. They all have ups and downs. I like my Cummins Ram AND my Duramax HD2500. Its fun to own both and see what the differences are in real life... not on a forum where the respective sites will bash the other brands to no end because of something they heard or just plain brand loyalty. And I'd take a 6. 0L Ford in a second just to own one and see what they can do. I like my neighbors 6. 0L. It's really a nice truck.



I just still find it bad that GM is losing the Medium Trucks. I know some businesses use the GM chassis with gas engines and really like them and the cost savings. One company here that comes to mind is the tree trimming folks. All of their trucks are GM 7500 gassers. For the application they do well. My small town has a gas Kodiak 7500 single axle dump. They use it to snow plow and general hauling. For their needs its perfect and saves $$$ over the more expensive Diesel/auto choices out there. Guess there's just not enough demand for common sense things anymore like trucks.

 

[AClayton]

Dieselnut59... I take it you'll never own another Dodge then since they too are completely Government run? I'd suspect they'll get rid of the vehicles we like anyhow.



Why all the talk about pickups? This is about Medium Duty trucks... not pickups. There are lots of places to discuss pickups on this site!



I've owned Chevy, Dodge GMC and Ford trucks. I currently have a Chevy and a Dodge. Seems like I end up with more Dodges than any other. They all have ups and downs. I like my Cummins Ram AND my Duramax HD2500. Its fun to own both and see what the differences are in real life... not on a forum where the respective sites will bash the other brands to no end because of something they heard or just plain brand loyalty. And I'd take a 6. 0L Ford in a second just to own one and see what they can do. I like my neighbors 6. 0L. It's really a nice truck.



I just still find it bad that GM is losing the Medium Trucks. I know some businesses use the GM chassis with gas engines and really like them and the cost savings. One company here that comes to mind is the tree trimming folks. All of their trucks are GM 7500 gassers. For the application they do well. My small town has a gas Kodiak 7500 single axle dump. They use it to snow plow and general hauling. For their needs its perfect and saves $$$ over the more expensive Diesel/auto choices out there. Guess there's just not enough demand for common sense things anymore like trucks.

I 100% agree... . there are demands for gas trucks and then there are demands for diesel trucks. Medium duty,light duty or whatever. The point I was trying to achieve was simple,yet some posters here ridicule any other choice BUT the Cummins equipped trucks and no other vehicle or gas engine comes close. That is BS and I will argue that point whether I was on a Cummins site or gas Chassis site or my favorite lawnmower chassis site:-laf



Alan

 

[JUeckert]

very good points in this last post, and the quoted post. lots of small municipalities run these gas mediums, and there are benifits to them . purchase price is cheaper, repair work on them is cheaper and often can be done in house, that aint happening on these newer diesels. replaceing engines is cheaper if the need arises also. performance on the truck is often better then a base line diesel option like a 5. 9,6. 0,7. 3 or the 3116/3126 cats. several private owned type companies that are known around the country buy these gm trucks, gm has been the only gas option for a while other then isuzu, which often runs a gas gm engine too.

 

[FATCAT]

Good, no loss! Now there's more of a market for Dodge.

Dodge (or Fiat/Govt. Motors), probably will soon be making the same statement as GM did about their medium duties.



Chrysler will be a shell of its former self and Dodge will be sold off to generate cash. Eventually Chrysler and Dodge will go the way of Plymouth and be only a memory.