Truck will not start - dealer wants to replace fuel system!

[SandyHelton]

My truck started to get hard to start recently (once) and a day later and 500 miles over the Sierras and back and it won't start at all. The engine cranks over just fine and it seems to be fuel related so I started to work through TSB 14-003-06. Fuel flow out of the CP-3 is fine (120ml per 30s). Initial codes were P0088, P0341 and during troubleshooting I threw a P0251. Once I got to the common rail I decided to have it towed to the dealership. They did the same steps as I had done, but stopped when they found BioDiesel in my fuel system. I was likely running about 20% BD at the time and have never had cold start problems with that mixture before. The dealer is claiming that I have contaminated fuel and wants to replace most of the components from the CP-3 back to the tank - even though the flow test at the CP-3 output showed no problem.



I'm suspecting either a bad injector or something similar that is allowing a fuel leak and that the CP-3 can not get enough pressure built up to open the injectors - but I am no expert here.



What are my next options? I've ordered the cap to test the injectors, but I need to get the truck back from the dealer. Do I push on the area rep to try and get them to reverse the dealerships call? Is that likely? I do not have a pressing need for the truck, so I can take some time to get this resolved and I hesitate paying yet again to have it towed somewhere else.



Should I bit the bullet and replace the injectors with after market ones if Dodge isn't going to warranty the truck? I haven't done any mods, except for guages and the like.



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[JApol]

If it is bad fuel dodge is not going to warrentee the repair.



Do you have a rail press gauge?

 

[SandyHelton]

No rail press gauge, I'm debating whether to buy a gauge or just get a better ODBII device that can get at all of the engine data. Any recommendations would be helpful.

So what's the procedure for determining if the fuel is bad? It can't simply be that they look at it and give a thumbs up or down.

 

[DFairhurst]

could also be the relief valve on the rail if that spring goes bad it wont hold pressure causing it to just return.

Not much on BD but you would think if you have a good filter 5 micron or better and its not pulged and its not if you have good cp3 flow it would b pass the pump like you

said.

About the dealer going back on there call you would be better off pulling teeth. But wouldnt hurt to try i guess

 

[RBridenbaugh]

Sandy --



P0088 - Fuel Rail Pressure Signal is Above Max Limit

P0341 - Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor Signal

P0251 - CP3 Pump Regulator Control



PM me and I'll send you the procedure for each code from my manual. I have a cap if you'd like to borrow it this weekend. 40 minute drive to San Mateo.



Apparently the DRBIII that is referenced in the service manual is $6k-7k so that is out.



I was thinking of buying a scan tool Actron CP9180 a scan tool that also gives you ECM data, like rail pressure, and generic monitoring ($130 on the web, more expensive at Sears or Autozone). Don't think it is bidirectional. Check the website users manual to see other models and functionality by downloading the specific users manual.



The other option I was considering was getting the AutoEnginuity Software for my laptop. They sell a manufacturer specific enhanced interface that allows bidirectional capabilities like the DRBIII. Unresolved question is does it have all of the functions for the cummins or just a reduced instruction set. Might call them to find out. Seems like $500 when all is done.

 

[SandyHelton]

RBridenbaugh,
Thanks for the offer, I'm not going to work on it this weekend because the dealership still has it and I still think that talking to the rep should be the next best step. I'll get my cap on Monday according to UPS.

Thanks for the tips on the scan tool.

 

[JJPage]

You can unplug the electrical connection to the FCA, this will max your rail pressure at idle and may allow it to start. You cannot drive it this way, and it still won't tell you exactly whats wrong, but it will isolate the problem... too low injection pressure, ex: FCA, cross tubes retorque, injector(s), rail pressure sensor, CP3.

 

[Wingate]

If its bad fuel, why not just drain and flush the entire system, replaced the filter and start the truck???. . Bad fuel does NOT always mean that everything has to be replaced. Thats a misconception thats been conjured up by dealerships to generate revenue at the customers( and the customers insurance policy) expense!!. .

We have had two different 6. 6l d-maxes and one 7. 3l PSd get filled with gasoline and ran until they shut down... . drained the tanks, purged the fuel systems, changed the filters... . and they are ok...

Sorry, can't help ya with the codes, I just get rubbed the wrong way everytime I read a post where some guys truck gets towed in and its "bad fuel, sorry we just had to void your warranty, UNLESS you let us rape you for several thousand in repairs"

 

[cerberusiam]

The dealer can hook up to the truck and see rail pressure at crank time. They should have already done this to nail down th eproblem. However, since they seem to want blame bad fuel and make you pay, the service manager probably told the tech not to run the tests. Make them run the test to see the rail pressure and go from there.

 

[sag2]

What dealer is it at, and do you happen to know the technicians name that is working on it?

 

[CIverson]

When my truck wouldn't start, if I disconnected the grid heaters and gave it a whif of ether it would start. Once started it ran fine. Turned out to be injectors.



I also had another issue where it wouldn't start, it was my TST that went bad.



Get any programmers or boxes off the truck.



Try a short burst of ether to see if it will start (grid heaters disconnected)



For my diagnosis I took it to a diesel shop, they thought bad CP3, I let them replace and it didn't fix anything.



I took it home after that.



So I had a new CP3. I replaced the cam and crank sensors, bought a rail pressure gauge to read the rail. I then found that the pressure was low when starting. After I knew everything else was OK in the system, I ordered up a set of reman inj. and that fixed the issue.



Hope that helps.

 

[SandyHelton]

You can unplug the electrical connection to the FCA, this will max your rail pressure at idle and may allow it to start. You cannot drive it this way, and it still won't tell you exactly whats wrong, but it will isolate the problem... too low injection pressure, ex: FCA, cross tubes retorque, injector(s), rail pressure sensor, CP3.

I had read about the FCA on another thread and did disconnect it while doing my initial troubleshooting and it still did not start.

 

[SandyHelton]

The dealer can hook up to the truck and see rail pressure at crank time. They should have already done this to nail down th eproblem. However, since they seem to want blame bad fuel and make you pay, the service manager probably told the tech not to run the tests. Make them run the test to see the rail pressure and go from there.

That sounds easy enough for them to do. I've been considering buying a good scan tool to do this myself. The diesel mechanic at the dealer (not the one who worked on my truck) told me to go through the full diagnostic was a four hour job and they tried to avoid doing that if possible. I guess its easier just to blame the fuel.

 

[SandyHelton]

What dealer is it at, and do you happen to know the technicians name that is working on it?

The dealer is Stevens Creek Dodge. I didn't talk to the tech who "found the bad fuel", but the service adviser had me talk to another diesel tech (Jeff) who agreed with me that even after they replaced all the stuff up stream of the common rail that it still is unlikely to start. We also talked about feeding the CP3 directly with good fuel and see if would start then, but he said they do so little of this type of work that they do not have the capability to do that (I guess they'd need a TSB to guide them).

 

[SandyHelton]

If the rail sensor is bad, the truck won't start. Mine (03) didn't anyway. I grabbed the sensor out of my '06, put it in the '03 and it started right up.



The sensor is around $200 at Cummins, about $600 at the dealer. It's a 10 minute swap. I'd try that first.



Check the fuel filter anyway and see if you have contamination.

The fuel filter has been changed. Is there a way to test the sensor? I do not want to just start replacing parts to see what fixes the issue and unless someone wants to lend me an extra just to try it. https://www.turbodieselregister.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

 

[SandyHelton]

Get any programmers or boxes off the truck.



Try a short burst of ether to see if it will start (grid heaters disconnected)



For my diagnosis I took it to a diesel shop, they thought bad CP3, I let them replace and it didn't fix anything.



I took it home after that.



So I had a new CP3. I replaced the cam and crank sensors, bought a rail pressure gauge to read the rail. I then found that the pressure was low when starting. After I knew everything else was OK in the system, I ordered up a set of reman inj. and that fixed the issue.



Hope that helps.

OK, these are the initial codes that occured, so could this be as simple as the camshaft sensor failing? Would that possible cause the rail pressure to go overlimit?



P0088 - Fuel Rail Pressure Signal is Above Max Limit

P0341 - Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor Signal



I did try the ether and it did sort of work. It was definitely kicking over, but I was afraid of doing more damage to the truck so I only tried short bursts. After three attempts I called it quits.

 

[CIverson]

OK, these are the initial codes that occured, so could this be as simple as the camshaft sensor failing? Would that possible cause the rail pressure to go overlimit?



P0088 - Fuel Rail Pressure Signal is Above Max Limit

P0341 - Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor Signal



I did try the ether and it did sort of work. It was definitely kicking over, but I was afraid of doing more damage to the truck so I only tried short bursts. After three attempts I called it quits.

If it started to kick over and didn't start I would say ether is not going to get you anywhere.



They say that the crank and cam sensor's work together, and that if one is bad the other will start the truck. Don't know if it's true or not. Possibly both are bad on your truck?



When I had issues w/ my TST causing the truck not to start I believe it was a crank/cam sensor issue. I will tell you that after changing the truck started faster than it had before (when it would start). They are only about $15 each at cummins, so it's cheap and you can rule them out.



From what I've read on the board, and with my experience, it seems 95% of the time, if everything else in the system is fine, except for the injectors, the truck will start on ether.



I forgot to mention before that as part of my diagnosing inj. issues I bought a fuel rail cap. You can find them on ebay, basically a bolt cut to just the right length to seal the overflow tube and put pressure on top of the valve to keep it from opening. Was like $25 and I was able to rule the overflow valve out as an issue. You could also try taking the banjo bolt off of the overflow valve and cranking the truck. If fuel is gushing out it's bad (there will be some fuel on top of the valve, but nothing should be flowing out). Again, if the valve is the problem, it would most likely start on ether.



In one of your other posts you mentioned starting from a bucket of clean fuel. If you disconnect the fuel line between the hard line on the frame and the back of the fuel filter, you can get an adapter to push into that hose and then attach some rubber line. Then feed that to a jug of fuel. I would set the jug so that it sits above the level of the filter housing. The CP3 will suck fuel to run (I have run mine w/ no lift pump). Keeping it above the housing just helps things along.



Ok, so that was kinda long. If it were me I'd throw a crank and cam sensor at it, along with the rail cap. For about $75 bucks you just ruled out 3 things and didn't have to buy a $400 overflow valve.

 

[SandyHelton]

Thanks CIverson, I do have a fuel cap on order and it should be here tomorrow. I'll go ahead and see where I can order the cam and crank sensors. Now I just need to get my truck back...

 

[SandyHelton]

Andres,
I've been searching the service manual for a rail sensor, but the olny references are in the wiring harness for the FCA. Is the rail sensor a part of the FCA?

 

[CIverson]

Here is one source for parts:



Common Rail



I'm more posting it because it has some pictures, one is of the rail assembly. If you look at the pic the tallest piece is the overflow valve, and the one to the left is the rail sensor.



If you remove the rail sensor make sure you leave the truck sit for a little bit if you've just tried cranking it so the pressure has bled down.