Cold Air Intake Systems Discussion

[Big_Horn]

So I have my heart set on the new Edge CTS coming out June 18 and I was told that if I wanted the shop to install it, then I would need to get an aftermarket intake. Their reasoning is that the factory air box does not allow enough air pass through and in turn ruin the turbo and burn up cylinders. Now I don’t trust this shop completely, but is there some truth with this?

Do I look for an intake that is completely enclosed?



What about ram air scoops? Do I look for one that accommodates one?



Do you really suck in warmer air from the engine compartment with a more open filter design?



Can you really ruin your intake sensors with "recharging kit" oil, typically found with K&N and similar systems?

Which one should I get? What’s the best fit for my application?

I have a 06 with a bone stock set up except a full flow muffler and I will be getting the Edge Attitude CTS as soon as it hits the shelves.



I'm sure this topic has been discussed before; if you have any links that would be of help, please let me know... Thanks!

 

[Wingate]

I'm no engineer, but it sounds pretty "suspect" to me. I would think that if that were really happening, there would be burnt up Cummins laying everywhere on the side of the road. It sounds more like they are going for the UP-sale... I would probably wager that if you didn't already have the aftermarket exhaust, they would be trying to sell that to you also.

From what I understand, the EDGE , and other modules, will be somewhat limited on available power due to the truck being in stock form. It will produce extremely remarkable power increases, but is going to be limited by the stock transfer pump, injection pump, injectors, and turbocharger. Adding an aftermarket air box inst going to remedy the situation.

I have also been thinking of adding the CTS to my truck, same as you, I'm bone stock except for the Silverline exhaust. The intergrated back up camera would be a welcomed addition.

One other idea I have toyed with is to skip the CTS, install 50 hp. nozzles in my truck with stock programming and buy a regular back-up camera. Still haven't came to a conclusion on it though... Maybe your impressions of the CTS will help me make a decision.

 

[macdaddy]

Big...

With 325HP, and 610 lb/ft. tq why do you feel the need for a fuel box?. Are you planning on 1/4 mile runs with some of the 60's and 70's muscle cars?.



Id say the after market intake system is unnecessary. I cant remember which TDR issue it was, but they were tested using a dyno and ur right the intake temps recorded were higher than the stock air filter and box. It also noted an increase in EGT's and a loss of power (Small).



If you do plan on changing from OEM id opt for the banks system where it pulls from underneath. It's a very well built and engineered system. Banks software items have a troubled past with respect to how they interface with Dodge PCM's but their intake and exhaust systems are top shelve.



Mac

 

[DGamelin]

It is time for you to fined a new shop.



I agree with Wingate these guys are not concern about truck just your wallet.



An open air filter will draw in heat from the engine and cost you HP no doubt. Your stock air box is good for close 500hp not that a after market won't help but not needed. I don't have one but I like the Banks. I put 6. 7 set in my 04 just for the large filter, I had a SJ in mine. It would collapse the smaller one in heavy rain. There is a larger one for your stock box out there now. A paper filter will all ways filter better and cold air is a must. Every car, truck, big truck and most race cars, farm tractors have tubes routed for cold air intake all those engineers can't be wrong.



If you have a auto you should be more concerned about trans prep if you juice up that engine and dont get the trans ready to handle it. The engine might eat it. I have a customer who just bought an 2010 has 2k on it and wants us to start putting engine mods on it. He just traded in his 08 because his mods eat the trans up. There is no point in making more power if you can't deliver it.



Just my 2cents



_________________________

93 250 2wd xc 354 auto 275k

04. 5 3500 4wd qc dully 373 6speed 100k

 

[Regcabguy]

A Smarty jr,some mechanical gauges and a psm cai(or Home Depot) and you're good to go. Five minute down/upload with no plumbing. Works well for most folks.

 

[AH64ID]

A Smarty jr,some mechanical gauges and a psm cai(or Home Depot) and you're good to go. Five minute down/upload with no plumbing. Works well for most folks.

Agree completely!


I have seen first hand that the stock setup is more than adequate for 430 rwhp. That's more than 100 hp over stock... And that was a bone stock intake, with an Amsoil EAA189 (which actually flows a little less than the stock filter).

If you want to modify your intake and are under 450 rwhp then I advise you do the following:

GDP Intake horn (increased spool up, decreased EGT's, decreased IAT's, decreased peak boost)
Airaid MIT (increased spool up, decreased EGT's, decreased IAT's)
Home Depot CAI (decreased IAT's, better flow at high rpm/high boost).

With my amsoil filter and stock intake I would pull the filterminder down at 32-33psi above 2700 rpms. Then I added the MIT and GDP horn, it then pulled the filterminder at 2500 rpms (more air being moved thru engine). Then I went to a cam (moving a lot more air) and added the Home Depot CAI tube, now I am back to 2800 rpms at 33 psi of boost before the filterminder even budges... My current setup flows some great air, and it runs up to 33% colder on the IAT's than stock. . Lower the load it runs MUCH colder than stock. . when boost is really high its the same as stock.

You can do that whole setup for under $350, thats less than most CAI's on the market with much better results.

 

[cerberusiam]

I have made over 470 HP with a stock filter in a modified box and homemade TQ tube. Filter minder is never sucked down anymore like it used.



Unless you really want to spend the money on a CAI, drill 4-6 holes in the bottom of the stock air box, build yourself a TQ tube out of schedule 40 PVC, and gut all the crap out of the elbows you can. Total cost about $25.



FYI, I made just under 450 HP with the filter in and the filter out on the Dyno, no appreciable difference between the two back to back runs.



Same thing for sucking hot air in from the engine bay, its an urban myth. See no differences up to around 500 HP with hood closed or open on the dyno. Once your on the street underhood temps are almost always within 5-10 degrees of ambient anyway.



Now, snorkle hoods look cool but as far as functionality unless your looking for a record its fluff. :-laf



Yes, recharging oil on a filter when you open up the air tract has the potential to foul sensors. Even worse than that under high suction oil elemnts are useless and let way too much dirt in. NONE of them will filter to the level of a good dry element. Save yourself $$ and problems by using a dry element filter.

 

[AH64ID]

Unless you really want to spend the money on a CAI, drill 4-6 holes in the bottom of the stock air box, build yourself a TQ tube out of schedule 40 PVC, and gut all the crap out of the elbows you can. Total cost about $25.

I would leave the lower elbow vanes, they are supposed to increase turbo efficancy by 30% (most likly at low turbo rpm's)

 

[cerberusiam]

I would leave the lower elbow vanes, they are supposed to increase turbo efficancy by 30% (most likly at low turbo rpm's)

. . and the case can be made at higher rpms they have the potential to slow and restrict the flow. Considering they were designed for a stock configuration that has lower total flows across the board their efficacy is highly questionable.



Tough to measure any positives or negatives at only partial flow. Removal assures full flow at all times so its lesser of two evils scenario.

 

[AH64ID]

Looking at the lower vanes I don't really see how they could negativly effect flow, even at higher than stock rates... Smooth air is better than turbulent air anytime.

 

[cerberusiam]

Smooth air is better than turbulent air anytime.

At what point is that quantifiable though? Remember the arguments over tail gate up\down on 3rd gens and results from that? What might seem obvious is sometimes the wrong answer. :-laf



The answer more than likely is under most circumstances there is no measurable difference in or out so its users choice.

 

[AH64ID]

At what point is that quantifiable though? Remember the arguments over tail gate up\down on 3rd gens and results from that? What might seem obvious is sometimes the wrong answer. :-laf



The answer more than likely is under most circumstances there is no measurable difference in or out so its users choice.

I thought the tail-gate debate was answered over a decade ago. . leave it up! And look at the current design on tail-gate... thou I added the mopar tail-gate "wing" and i'm not sure how much it effected. . thou its worth every penny for the ease of closing now!



Looking at the elbow aerodynamically, something I have been taught a little about, I can see how under 99%, or greater, of the circumstances and airflows the vanes in the elbow are beneficial. . I would also say they are more beneficial at low flow than high flow, but at high flow they will direct the air straight into the turbo. .



Would be easy to tell, one dyno run with, one without.

 

[AMcCormick]

Isnt this what the "TAG" is all about? Direct the swirling compressed air straight into the compressor. I've thought about putting the the stock box back in with a "cool blue hose" and "TAG" and some sort of bottom scoop.

 

[JHMiller]

I thought the intake issue was corrected on the 04. 5 and up?? My 03 was restricted so I added a CAI. With the slushy roads here in Wy. I carry a large foam ball to plug it for just cruising and yes a couple of blips of the throttle and it gets sucked right up to the filter box so it darn sure is restricted. You've changed the muffler so I assume you noticed the performance increase there. I just took an Edge/Att off and uploaded Smarty, now I'm happy!! John

 

[AH64ID]

Isnt this what the "TAG" is all about? Direct the swirling compressed air straight into the compressor. I've thought about putting the the stock box back in with a "cool blue hose" and "TAG" and some sort of bottom scoop.

That is exactly whats it about. The stock vanes in the lower elbow are the OEM version. . which is why I say keep it.

I thought the intake issue was corrected on the 04. 5 and up?? My 03 was restricted so I added a CAI. With the slushy roads here in Wy. I carry a large foam ball to plug it for just cruising and yes a couple of blips of the throttle and it gets sucked right up to the filter box so it darn sure is restricted. You've changed the muffler so I assume you noticed the performance increase there. I just took an Edge/Att off and uploaded Smarty, now I'm happy!! John

The 04. 5 up intake was a little bigger on the silencer (probably more for the little bigger turbo) and the vanes were added to the lower elbow.



I didn't notice any difference when the muffler or cat was removed. I did the muffler for sound and the cat for the soot from the Jr.

 

[cerberusiam]

Isnt this what the "TAG" is all about?

It falls under "placebo" mods, if it feels good to YOU then its worth it.



All this stuff can be made to look good as a mod with the right words, what is invariably in short supply is any concrete data it ACTUALLY does make a difference, and, exactly where the difference is.



The cool thing is you can mod it that way and feel you have something good, I can toss the stuff and feel mine is just as good. Then we can agree to disagree and both be happy because it is so restrictively hard to definitively prove\disprove. Placebos have their uses. :-laf

 

[TMax]

I just did the PSM "style" CAI with the new thicker filter from Dodge and it works great. I had the Amsoil drop in but I actually think this new disposable from Dodge flows better. It seems to let the truck spool quicker. I am anxious to get the 5er back on it to see if I notice anything more.

The PSM CAI is easy. You just cut a 5" hole in the bottom of your airbox and go to HD and buy an ABS closet flange, screw it down to the bottom of the airbox and then run a 4" ABS pipe down to the edge of the fender liner. It draws cooler air from outside.

This mod has been covered multiple times on the forum in a much more professional manner than I just gave you but it does work well and the dealers neve say anything about it.

 

[Regcabguy]

I've gone to the new double deep stock filter with my PSM CAI. I've run the AFE PG7 for 22,000 miles with silica never exceeding 5 on my Blackstone reports. This new stocker has a lot of filtering surface,so I'll give it a go for 5,000 miles and compare.

 

[cerberusiam]

The PSM CAI is easy. You just cut a 5" hole in the bottom of your airbox and go to HD and buy an ABS closet flange, screw it down to the bottom of the airbox and then run a 4" ABS pipe down to the edge of the fender liner. It draws cooler air from outside.

Again, not even needed for 99% of the applications. The underhood air does not make a major impact on power.



In addition this mod is pain in heavy rainfall and snow areas. After 1 or 2 filters get ruined frm excess moisture being sucked in to the air box most people rethink the design then have to figure out how to fix it. :-laf

 

[TMax]

Well I guess living in Arizona does have its benefit then doesn't it?

I have been through heavy rains and have never had an issue. I did check the condition of the filter and it had very little moisture on it. I was curious about that same issue and so far... there never has been an issue.