Has any one else experianced Brake failure due to ABS?

[AEdelheit]

Over memorial day weekend I had a little indecent off road with my ABS causing 22k worth of damage to the truck, lucky no one was hurt. I was driving through some muddy ruts, hit a big bump at the end, slammed on the brakes and nothing happened, the pedal was hard but the truck was not slowing down at all. With allot of people and other vehicles around I ended going into some trees and it wasn't a pretty picture when it came back out. Whenever I go off road in places like Glamis or Mexico I pull my ABS fuse because I have heard of this problem happening and experienced it 1st hand, out there it wasn't a big deal since there was plenty of places to go. And Im sure some of you may be thinking there was muddy water on the brakes causing the problem but I rolled far enough that any mud or water would have cleared out. I was just curious if anyone else has had problems with there ABS giving them decreased braking power in off road situations. Thanks for any feedback

 

[Newt]

Not the same thing, but, I was driving the wifes Sable. It was wet. A light changed close in front of me. I got down hard on the brakes and the car went loop de loop. It spun ~420 degrees. It was headed for a utility pole. But, stopped first. I almost needed clean underwear. The ABS module was bad.

Newt

 

[HOBrian]

More than likely when you hit the brakes the wheel were off the ground, sending the ABS on and when you landed the ABS couldn't catch up fast enough and you ended up in the trees.

 

[mc130fox]

I sincerely apologize to the OP. This topic in not the place to confront bullies.

 

[HBarlow]

"Self-Anointed Title of Right and Wrong Arbitrator. "
Mr. Barlow, please tell me who are you to decide if the OP's decision to use the truck the way he did was legitimate or not? It strikes me that in your reply to this topic and many other posts across the TDR forums that you have assumed this position since your name was published in the magazine. Check your ego at the keyboard Mr. Barlow.





Ummm... I am obviously not as smart as yourself Mr. Barlow, but no where does it say he he is going to sue. DOES IT?

Mr. Barlow, your consistent displays of egotism, holier-than-thou attitude, lack of consideration for others and just plain bullying have grow tiresome. You have lost my respect. That may not bother you, but people like you will not ever go unchallenged as long as I draw breath.

Good day.

Spin it anyway you wish but when someone does something as foolish as the OP did and crashes his truck it is pretty foolish to try to blame the truck. It's called growing up and accepting personal responsibility.

 

[BGlidewell]

I've had ABS disconnect my brakes several times on the street while coming to a stop where bumps are present. Easily repeatable. It's a sure-fire underwear changing experience. Imagine a set of RR tracks just before a signal light... thats a baaaaad place for stopping 4 tons of truck.

 

[fox]

That is what ABS is designed to do. If one or more wheels stop turning,or turns at a different rate, it releases pressure on the remaining wheels!!! So stopping distance is increased by large measures.



By design, ABS is a failed system!

I've been very close to several crashes by its design working.

You are not in control sometimes. This is a dumb system and redesigned.

I'm not suggesting you sue but we need the ability to disable it as we want.



some will argue that it went into the trees because you drove it there!!!!!

ABS is suppose to work in a matter so you don't loose steering control.



On the street, what good is it if there is no place to steer in a panic stop?

I'm a skilled driver and want full control of steering and braking, not some engeeneeeeeer in an office a 1,000 miles away.

Actually I hit a car with my durango because of ABS a few years ago.

This why I call it,

Anti

Braking

System.

Even the NHTS says that ABS has not reduced the number of accidents, or the severity!!!!!

Study the system and figure out how it works and disable it.

don't PM me and tell me I'm wrong for saying it, and don't PM me and ask how. i'm not responsible for your actions.

 

[Cosmo]

Spin it anyway you wish but when someone does something as foolish as the OP did and crashes his truck it is pretty foolish to try to blame the truck. It's called growing up and accepting personal responsibility.

THIS.







As a Subaru fan since the mid-90s, I've come across a LOT of people who don't understand that ABS is designed NOT so that you stop faster, but rather so that you can maintain your ability to steer in a panic situation.



I've also learned that when you're screwing around in dirt, snow, gravel, mud, or any other low traction situation, ABS is not your friend.



Manufacturers design their safety devices to work in the situations where 99% of owners will spend their time driving. Unfortunately that means the other 1% are hobbled by safety devices that shouldn't be active. Airbags and ABS are unsafe offroad.



That doesn't mean, however, that the manufacturer should have any liability for an accident caused by operating the vehicle outside of its intended parameters.



When amateur rally racers take their Subarus, Mitsubishis, VWs, Audis, or whatever street licensed/insured/driven cars and crash them in a race, should there be any manufacturer liability? I think not.







OP: Sorry for your crash. You've got to be prepared to pay if you're going to play.

 

[mc130fox]

I sincerely apologize to the OP. This topic in not the place to confront bullies.

 

[JMarketos]

... I've come across a LOT of people who don't understand that ABS is designed NOT so that you stop faster, but rather so that you can maintain your ability to steer in a panic situation...

No doubt this is a passionate topic, but Cosmo has bullseyed an important fact.

This isn't intended as a rant nor do I intend to debate with anybody; call it just my 0. 02 if that helps. Many drivers don't have deep understanding of how the various systems on an automobile work. Also, many don't have much knowledge of physics in conjunction with how suspension and brakes work. Not faulting anybody, just observing that's how it is. They put fuel in the tank and drive. Statistics this way or that, what the ABS system mainly solves is to keep the steering tires rotating so the vehicle will respond to steering inputs during heavy braking. To a lesser degree, ABS helps keep the rear end planted, but is not infallible there as one of the replies above testifies. I personally have witnessed at least two accidents from years ago before ABS was prevalent, both on rainy nights at an intersection, both where people were pushing their luck on a yellow light, both resulted in collision because the front tires locked up and the car did not respond to the driver turning the steering wheel. (and yes I'll agree- because the driver did not have skill, presence, whatever, to let up on the brakes) (Both were relatively minor accidents- bent metal but no personal injuries)

I can't quote chapter and verse here, but my memory is that ABS is known to lengthen stopping distances, and the evolution of ABS has included the pursuit of minimizing that extra distance (compared to what an experienced performance driver can do... ).

Seems that OP may have encountered a "worst case" situation. While I'd agree in general that the OP's encounter was probably ABS related, personally I dunno if I could be 100% sure about that. I acknowledge another fact; I wasn't there, and the OP was. I sure have encountered lots of times (mostly on smooth ice) when I was standing on a brake pedal and listening to the ABS work and not slowing down nearly as fast as I thought I should be, and wishing that I had an "ABS-OFF" switch. [edit: with other vehicles in the past, not my Dodge truck, which isn't driven in winter... . ]

I'll close with a couple stories, hope they aren't too boring-

My 1990 GMC 2500 4x4 manual trans- back then had only rear ABS. Worked ok in the warm especially if slowing down on bumpy surface, did a good job at preventing the wheels from locking if the axle hopped. But... On cold winter mornings, first stop of the morning... it wasn't a hydraulic issue, it was an electric issue- the "system" would sense the brake lights come on, and the ABS would come in and absolutely lock the rear end. It would stall the engine if you weren't fast enough with the clutch. If you happened to be on slippery road at the time, that action would often also start the rear end coming around. Only happened on first application or two of the brakes, when very cold out. (I have to believe it may have been a software issue more than mechanical) I complained to the dealer, the issue was repeatable and acknowledged, several nondescript attempts to fix. Finally the dealer told me that central tech office final suggestion for "solution" was to saturate the rear (drum) brake shoes with oil. I said no thanks to that. I learned when first starting out on a cold morning, get her into 2nd gear and apply some throttle and touch the brake pedal with left foot, ride it a couple times for 100 feet or so, it was usually ok after then.

1993 S-10 blazer, had 4 wheel antilock brakes. Out on a date one night, maybe 3rd or 4th date with this particular lady. Cold winter night, we were driving slowly through old neighborhoods, she was showing me where she grew up. I happened to lightly touch the brakes while over a frozen patch, and the ABS came on lightly. In that vehicle, it sounded a lot like what can happen after a big dinner at taco bell. She abruptly stopped talking and looked at me accusingly. I told her it was the ABS brakes. With doubtful tone, she said "make it do it again... ". I had to find another icy patch and repeat the process to convince her I hadn't done anything inappropriate. I completed that successfully, and made a mental note- she ain't the one...

 

[BGlidewell]

That's what ABS brakes are designed and engineered to do. When the ABS computer detects tires skidding on the pavement it rapidly applies and releases the brakes at an extremely high rate.



ABS brakes can't create traction in a situation where none exists but they will prevent or reduce loss of steering control and out of control skids.

I was coming to a normal stop in a straight line from 40MPH and the service brakes got me down to 20MPH but when I crossed the concrete transition, the brakes stopped working completely. I came to within an inch of the car in front of me. This was no panic stop, just a gradual stop at an intersection.

 

[Cosmo]

It happens, electronic nannies cannot predict every single situation. They're programmed to do their best for every situation the engineers think of, but sometimes that's not enough.

Your brakes did, however, stop your truck so it sounds like they were still working and that they didn't stop working completely. There's a difference between the braking power of a pulsing brake and one applied continuously.

Both of the Subarus I'd owned with ABS (2001 Impreza and 2005 Legacy turbo) had horrid ABS programming. I hated it with a passion and very seriously considered simply pulling the ABS fuse. The ONLY reason I didn't is because of the liability I would be putting upon myself had I been involved in an accident and the other party or my insurance company discovered that my ABS had been disabled intentionally.

I'm not a fan of electronic driving aids at all - traction control, ABS, stability control - by and large it makes the general uneducated masses safer behind the wheel as it strips control of the vehicle away from the driver and puts it more in the hands of the car.

I'm a driver though, not simply an idiot behind the wheel. I pay attention to what's going on around me. I know how to react when wheels lock up. I know how to react when wheels slip.

When I was 15, dad was teaching me how to drive (I knew how to drive already, he was just giving me seat time) and he told me to get on it going around a corner. I did... what he didn't see was that there was a coat of sand on the corner. Being a rear wheel drive car with a limited slip rear differential, the car kicked the rear end out and sent us sideways. I had already corrected and turned into the slide, easing out of the throttle slowly, before my dad could reach over to grab at the wheel. He looked at me and demanded to know how I knew how to do that. I've always been a driver.

A few years ago I was driving a friend's Iveco diesel box truck, towing a flatbed trailer. It was raining and the stop sign came up a LOT faster than I was expecting. The guys in the truck in front of me were stopped and I managed to stop about 1/3 of the way down the length of their rig. Later when I talked to them, they admitted they noticed I pulled up along side of them and thought I was just turning the wrong way. What they didn't know is that the pavement was oily enough that the Iveco's front brakes had locked up and had I not known what to do without ABS I would have smashed right into the back of their service rig. They were driving a high dollar box truck for a national sponsored rally team, and that would have been a very expensive crash.

One of the reasons that I'm not a fan of ABS is that people who never learn how to drive without it are screwed when there's an error with the system. Let's say a branch in the road during a wind storm gets run over and it flips up, taking out a wheel speed sensor... what's a driver to do when their ABS system doesn't pulse the brakes and they slam into a stopped vehicle?

Electronic nannies make the roads safer under the right circumstances, but by and large they make the roads much less safe because the people actually driving the cars no longer have to be skilled at driving. Shoot - you found a situation where ABS in your truck doesn't perform well. Have you adjusted your driving habits to mediate that flaw? My 05 Legacy used to go into ABS fits due to a downhill slope in my old office parking lot that had a speed bump on it. The first time I hit that (dry pavement even!) I nearly slid through the sidewalk and out into the street.

 

[AEdelheit]

I sincerely apologize to the OP. This topic in not the place to confront bullies.

Go for it Mark, I have no issues with anyone who would like to inform Mr. Barlow on there opinions of him as he does to others!



Hahaha, oh Harvey you amuse me! Quick story folks, as I typed my original post one of the thoughts that went through my head was " I bet Harvey is gonna have a field day with this one, he wont be any help and he will be absolutely positive it was my fault" sure enough, just like clock work you came through again with a good laugh!



As far as me playing off road racer blah blah blah its all my fault blah blah Harvey you assumed alot here. I was actually going about 20mph, not too fast for the conditions assuming the brakes worked, I hit the brakes, nothing happend, I rolled about 5 seconds when I hit the final tree, even if a tire was off the ground when when I hit the brakes I dam well expect them to start working within a second of the tire being on the ground. Heres how I look at it, I hit the brakes, the ABS was preventing sufficient pressure to the calipers to stop the truck, so yes I do feel that was an ABS failure, especially with how far I rolled. Looking back sure I should have put it into neutral, let off the clutch applied the parking brake, tried reapplying the brakes again till they worked but bottom line is when you brakes dont work and there are many people and other vehicles around the only thing you thing about is where to steer that wont put anyone in danger and not hit anything else of value.



As far of some notion of me suing dodge, no Harvey, not every Californian is a sue happy person as you assume, I do feel there is a flaw in ABS that allowed this to happen, I feel any vehicle can do it but I will just put my ABS on a switch and turn it off every time Im in dirt.



As for everyone else thank you for the help, it actually worked out better in the end, I sold the truck as-is to a friend who can really use it, got the money from insurance that they paid out to fix the truck and bought a very clean 04. 5 QC SB 4x4 Laramie that will suit me better right now

 

[bighammer]

I had a similar thing happen in town when approaching a light that was turning red. Road was a wet/slushy and when I hit the brake, it was hard as a rock (no HBarlow, there wasn't a stone under the pedal) and maybe only about 10% of normal braking.

 

[ENafziger]

I'm glad you're ok... that could've been bad!!!!

On my 1990 K1500 Chevy, as soon as you put it in 4x4, the ABS system was automatically disabled. It seems that was a very logical thing to do.

After hearing your experience, I may wire up a relay to disable the ABS system on the '06 as well when 4wd is engaged.

Just as a side note, all of this "help" concerning "you have to pay to play, you're not using your truck in a legitimate way, etc" is nothing but jibberish. It doesn't help the situation, it is condescending and demeaning, and it just isn't necessary.

--Eric

 

[Bob4x4]

Hey Man,

Now I know why the new trick pics on dtx

Well look at the bright side

Now you don,t have to mess with your L suspension

 

[HBarlow]

Some of you are obviously members of a generation where nothing is ever your fault, it is always someone else's responsibility when something goes wrong.

Sometimes truth and reality are a bit hard to accept.

Each to his own, I guess.

 

[Wingate]

Over memorial day weekend I had a little indecent off road with my ABS causing 22k worth of damage to the truck, lucky no one was hurt. I was driving through some muddy ruts, hit a big bump at the end, slammed on the brakes and nothing happened, the pedal was hard but the truck was not slowing down at all. With allot of people and other vehicles around I ended going into some trees and it wasn't a pretty picture when it came back out. Whenever I go off road in places like Glamis or Mexico I pull my ABS fuse because I have heard of this problem happening and experienced it 1st hand, out there it wasn't a big deal since there was plenty of places to go. And Im sure some of you may be thinking there was muddy water on the brakes causing the problem but I rolled far enough that any mud or water would have cleared out. I was just curious if anyone else has had problems with there ABS giving them decreased braking power in off road situations. Thanks for any feedback

yes, I purchased a brand new GM product back in 1996, had the wife and kids in the car... clear dry day, smooth road, about 40 mph, coming up to a red-light, started easing onto the brakes, car started slowing, then all of a sudden, the ABS controller kicked on and at that point the car basically started free wheeling. . I could NOT push the pedal any futher!!!. . This car had a center console mounted E-Brake and I ripped it up, slammed the trans into Low, and flat-spotted the rear tires to a stop. Once the car stopped the ABS controller kicked off!!!!. .

Took it repeatedly to the dealership, the were either indifferent, ignorant, or just plain D/A sses...

The car did it several more times in about 4-5 weeks, every time, i documented it, and the dealers response to my request for service...

GM seasoned that car up and ate it!!. . Hope the marinated it first... or it may have been tough to swallow!.



Only advice I can give to the OP is that if/when it ever happens again, slam the E-brake down and drop the trans to low gear... .

 

[Bob4x4]

I have to agree that the 3rd gen ABS works awesome on the road,but as soon as you venture off road it 's value declines rapidly. At a very slow pace it is indeed invisible-what we all want. Now pick up the pace, have a tire get light and need the brakes at the same time and it can get ugly,the pedal will get rock hard and no matter how hard you push there is no response.

 

[AEdelheit]

Some of you are obviously members of a generation where nothing is ever your fault, it is always someone else's responsibility when something goes wrong.

Sometimes truth and reality are a bit hard to accept.

Each to his own, I guess.

Ohhhh Harvey I expect more from you, your slipping on your pointless uselsess comments!

Thanks Eric I am going to wire an ABS switch on the new truck for offroad use. Bob yaaaaaa no more L now Thuren!