turbo question for you guys

[seafish]

As you can see from the photo in the last post, the 5. 9 and 6. 7 exhaust manifolds are identical in dimensions, except for the addition of the egr ports AND the different shape of the outlet flange. The 6. 7L uses a WGMT, or t4-i flange, which is diffrent from the 5. 9L t3 flange. That is the ONLY reason why the HE351ve will NOT bolt right up to a 5. 9 manifold... the flange is slightly diffently shaped and has the bolts in a slightly different place.

There ARE plate adapters that are approximately 1/2" to 1" thick, that WILL allow the HE351ve turbo to bolt up to a 5. 9 manifold, but the extra thickness often causes inteference of the HE351ve electronics and vane actuatators with the OEM shock tower.


That being said, you can see why I do not necessarily want to use a 6. 7 manifold and then have to block off the egr ports, etc.
I'd much rather go with a better flowing, aftermarket 5. 9 L exhaust manifold, or like I mentioned earlier an even better flowing 2nd gen exhaust manifold with an adapter. I am also talking with Lane @ Steed Speed to figure out how to make a 2nd gen manifold with a VNT style (WGMT or T-4i type ) flange on it so the turbo will bolt right up. Here is a sample of his work, which is BEAUTIFUL and reasonably priced for the quality. Lifteime guarantee and excellent customer service to boot.

Steed Speed - The only manifold available to give a substantial* gain in power and fuel economy. Not cheAP CAST AND NOT WEAK TUBULAR. *tHIS IS*THE FINEST FULLY CNC MACHINED BILLET TURBO MANIFOLD ON THE PLANET. *EASILY OUTPERFORMS EVERY OTHER MANIFOL

So sorry that the link above to Steed Speed is so HEAVILY ADVERTISED, but I can't help that, and it IS a NICE manifold !!!

 

[oldturbonut]

Here is another link with more info--

2003 - 2007 5. 9cr & he351ve - Competition Diesel. Com - Bringing The BEST Together

And ANOTHER--

Fleece Turbo controller he351ve - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum

Thank's Seafish, sorry for the delay getting back to you. I should have some info for you next week. I am installing a data logging system so I can make changes to the controller and measure how effective the changes are. I hope to be ready to go tomorrow and this weekend.

 

[AH64ID]

The 6. 7 manifold also has larger ports, a smoother #4 flow, and no divider.

 

[seafish]

AH64ID,

I was HOPING that you would chime in here, as I know that you came REALLY close to doing the HE351VE/Fleece conversion, and thus did ALOT of research on it.

First off, since I do not have an EB yet, I will learn to drive around the compatability issue between the EB function with the oem cruise control operation. I have an email in to Fleece to see if the EB will actually try to engage if it is inadvertantly turned on when operating with CC, as well as other questions, but they have not yet replied.

That being said, it seems that this is a VERY versatile turbo upgrade for someone without an EB... not only is spool up quicker and top end slightly better, but one gets a working EB, the ability to fine tune the response of the turbo within its MAP range, as well as adjust the strentgh of EB engagement by using Fleeces proprietary software on a Laptop. As far as I can tell, one also retains the abilty to upgrade to a compound turbo set-up using the HE351VE as the primary turbo while STILL retaining the EB function.

So now all I am trying to figut out is what exhaust manifold I will use and how I am going to get the money to do this... :-laf:-laf


Are you saying that the oem 6. 7 exhaust manifold likely flows better then the 5. 9L ??

Any idea how it compares to a 2nd gen manifold??

Obviously the NICE thing about using a 6. 7L manifold with the 5. 9L downpipe is that the conversion remains very simple in terms of plumbing the turbo, almost drop in, with the exception of adding the water cooling lines.

 

[Prairie Dog]

I maybe misunderstanding some of the posts here but my ECM controls my PacBrake and will indeed actuate it if I have the CC engaged and I begin coasting down a hill at zero throttle.

 

[seafish]

I maybe misunderstanding some of the posts here but my ECM controls my PacBrake and will indeed actuate it if I have the CC engaged and I begin coasting down a hill at zero throttle.

The Fleece controller is a standalone unit... . while it DOES read data from various engine sensors in order to accurately control the turbo vanes, it controls the vane motor on its own. Since the vanes closing down on the HE351VE create the effect of an EB, that is the EB that I am referring to.

AsAH64ID pointed out earlier, one of the parameters the Fleece controller uses to engage the EB is a tps reading of "0" which the oem ecm also puts out when the Cruise Control is engaged. Therefore the 2 cannot operate at the same time, though I am still trying to determine what happens when the 2 are engaged at the same time. NO ONE on other forums is reporting problems with their Fleece operated EB, so I think it is doubtful there is an issue except for NOT being able to use BOTH the EB and CC at the same time. For me that is an issue that I can easily learn to drive around. I will still get Fleece to clarify this incompatability sometime soon.

Does that make sense?? If not, I'll bet that AH64ID can explain it ALOT better then I can.

 

[AH64ID]

AH64ID,



I was HOPING that you would chime in here, as I know that you came REALLY close to doing the HE351VE/Fleece conversion, and thus did ALOT of research on it.



First off, since I do not have an EB yet, I will learn to drive around the compatability issue between the EB function with the oem cruise control operation. I have an email in to Fleece to see if the EB will actually try to engage if it is inadvertantly turned on when operating with CC, as well as other questions, but they have not yet replied.



That being said, it seems that this is a VERY versatile turbo upgrade for someone without an EB... not only is spool up quicker and top end slightly better, but one gets a working EB, the ability to fine tune the response of the turbo within its MAP range, as well as adjust the strentgh of EB engagement by using Fleeces proprietary software on a Laptop. As far as I can tell, one also retains the abilty to upgrade to a compound turbo set-up using the HE351VE as the primary turbo while STILL retaining the EB function.



So now all I am trying to figut out is what exhaust manifold I will use and how I am going to get the money to do this... :-laf:-laf





Are you saying that the oem 6. 7 exhaust manifold likely flows better then the 5. 9L ??



Any idea how it compares to a 2nd gen manifold??



Obviously the NICE thing about using a 6. 7L manifold with the 5. 9L downpipe is that the conversion remains very simple in terms of plumbing the turbo, almost drop in, with the exception of adding the water cooling lines.

It is a very good upgrade. You do have to remember that it has the same compressor wheel that you do now, but what you gain is reduced back-pressure which is good for efficiency and power. You won't lose much in the EGT department but should pick up some mid range power and a smoother top end.



The 6. 7 manifold is a direct bolt on and appears it will flow better than the stock 5. 9 manifold. I don't think it's quite as good as a 2nd gen, but for the ease of installation I think its a good way to go.

I maybe misunderstanding some of the posts here but my ECM controls my PacBrake and will indeed actuate it if I have the CC engaged and I begin coasting down a hill at zero throttle.

Which is how my 05 works. The problem is the Fleece doesn't use the ECM logic for the exhaust brake, so it like seafish said it uses TPS signal, which with the CC engages is 0 and the Fleece then tries to engage the EB even if your pulling a hill.



I really don't understand why the Fleece can't use the signal from the ECM for the EB, then you get OEM EB operation and can use it in conjunction with the EB. This was the deal breaker for me I always have both the cruise and the EB turned on at the same time.



You could wire the Fleece EB switch thru the ECM and get similar to stock EB operation but at the cost of reaction time. If both the ECM and the Fleece have a delay then you are now 2x longer to get the EB to engage.

 

[cerberusiam]

The flanges for the VGT turbos are available on EBay. The typical scenario is use the manifold of your choice and grind\machine the existing flange off and shape it to mount the new flange on with a weld.



The only drawback we have found so far is the tendency of soot to stick the control collar, usually at the lowest setting, when not using the engine hard enough. If it will frequently pull enough EGT's doesn't seem to be a problem but empty or driven lightly it does stick occasionally.



That might not be an issue with the electric motor if it is strong enough, but with the boost or spring controlled it can be.

 

[seafish]

The flanges for the VGT turbos are available on EBay. The typical scenario is use the manifold of your choice and grind\machine the existing flange off and shape it to mount the new flange on with a weld.

I have heard that the thickness of the adapters often causes interference with clocking the HE351VE into the correct position for the oil retuen line and the shock tower.

Welding on the correct flange on the anifold of choice would certainly work. Or simply buying an aftremarket 6. 7L exhaust manifold that already has the VGT type flange on it.

The only drawback we have found so far is the tendency of soot to stick the control collar, usually at the lowest setting, when not using the engine hard enough. If it will frequently pull enough EGT's doesn't seem to be a problem but empty or driven lightly it does stick occasionally.

On engine start up, the Fleece controller tells the vane actutator motor to cycle the sliding nozzle through its full range thus helping to control soot build-up.

 

[seafish]

OK... finally confirmed with Fleece that their controller in fact WILL try to engage the EB, that is close the turbo vanes, if one turns on the EB function switch while in cruise control, or turns on the cruise control while the Fleece EB function switch is on.

Like AH64ID has pointed out, this is not an ideal situation, but for me it is NOT a show stopper, given the other advantages of the Fleece/HE351VE turbo upgrade.

ALSO, I think I could easily find a way to wire in a relay from the oem Cruise Control that would interrupt the Fleece EB function switch (which IS a standalone switch going to their controller) if and when the CC was engaged.
That way, while I might not be able to use the EB while in CC, I would also not do any damage to my fueling system or engine by the vanes closing down while at highway speeds or even while actually under accelration. If I can actually find a wiring diagram for the cruise control and find the actual "set" switch wire, rather then simply the on/off wire, the relay might actually be able to be designed so that simply disengaging the CC "set" position by using the service brake would also let the EB function, but when resuming the CC, the relay would be tripped and again interrupt the Fleece EB function switch. If that is the case, then it would ALMOST operate just like the Dodge oem ECM, maybe with a slightly longer delay when using both CC and the EB. At least I think I could do that, but, all that being said, I am SURE that I could wire in a safety/relay system that simply dissallows the Fleece EB switch while the CC is on.

So, I am still going to move forward with this as I can get the funds together.

I am now planning on using either the Steed 6. 7 manifold or the Hellman 5. 9 manifold with adapter.

The Steed is billet mild steel and the Hellman is welded Stainless tubing.

BOTH are well made and BEAUTIFUL, as well as better flowing then my oem 5. 9 exhaust manifold. The Hellman is available with a 1200* ceramic coating as well.

What I am NOT sure about, is weather the stainless would be longer lasting or the mild steel. I have read that there can be problems with the longevity of Stainless due to its greater expansion/contraction rates. Still, Hellman has been making Stainless manifolds for diesel and other aplications for a LONG time and they seem to know what they are doing. I am going to try to get more info on the actual grade of SS that they use, because different grades have very different expansion rates.

 

[AH64ID]

If you wire it thru the ECM you will only get the EB to engage when the ECM and Fleece think it should, which will allow you to use cruise/EB. . but it will be slower to engage based on the delay logic in both. I wonder if the Fleece could be programmed to have 0 delay? (should have thought of that before I sold my setup).

 

[JHumphries]

Does this manifold have the correct flange:
Dodge Exhaust Manifolds - ATS Diesel
I dont know what the "-i' was on your post about the flanges, but this one is t-4. Call ATS and see if they can make the manifold.
If you are worried about expansion/contraction, wouldn't the manifolds with the expansion joint be the way to go?

 

[seafish]

Does this manifold have the correct flange:
Dodge Exhaust Manifolds - ATS Diesel
I dont know what the "-i' was on your post about the flanges, but this one is t-4. Call ATS and see if they can make the manifold.
If you are worried about expansion/contraction, wouldn't the manifolds with the expansion joint be the way to go?

JHumphries,


The flange for the HE351VE turbo is slightly different then a T4.

I am pretty sure that it has a slightly different opening and maybe even a slightly different bolt pattern then a standard T4.

Some people refer to it as a T4i, others as a type WGMT.

That being said, any aftremarket exhaust manifold meant to fit the 2008 and up 6. 7L CTD, should also fir the HE351ve in a 5. 9L application.
However, I have read that some people have had problems fitting the PDI manifold to the HE351VE, though I do NOT know the particulars.

I am going to see if either Steed or Hellman will make me a 5. 9L exhaust maifold with a 6. 7L (type WGMT/T4i) flange.

 

[seafish]

I wonder if the Fleece could be programmed to have 0 delay? (should have thought of that before I sold my setup).

That is a dam good question behind a dam good idea--

I'll call Fleece again next week and see if I can find out!!
Still not sure how you would take the one wire from Fleeces EB control switch and get it to interact with the ECM EB control.

I still think that the idea of using a relay system to eliminate any conflict between the Fleece controlled EB and the ECM controlled CC would be realtively easy to achieve, certainly using the CC on/off wire to both allow and interrupt the Fleece EB engagement switch, but also maybe using the CC set/cancel wiring, which would then include operation of the brake pedal disengaging the CC and thus allowing the Fleece to operate the EB. Ideally you would tap into whatever wire actually tells the CC to engage CC or cancel CC to operate a relay that would either allow the Fleece switch to be closed, thus allowing the Fleece to close the vanes by its own paramaters, or, if the CC is engaged, opening the Fleece switch so that it cannot operate the EB. Like I said, if it is done right, a simple tap on the brakes would disenage the CC allowing the Fleece to operate the EB, and then hitting the resume button would open the circuit to the Fleece switch, preventing it from operating while in CC. The only delay would be on the relay opening and closing in response to the CC engaging/disengaging, and of course, whatever delay Fleece programs their controller with. Whaddya think??

 

[AH64ID]

Did you ever call them?

The easiest would be to just wire their switch thru the ECM.

 

[seafish]

Did you ever call them?



The easiest would be to just wire their switch thru the ECM.

Was to busy last week, still plenty of wood to push through the mill this week, but they are still on my call list... will try to get it done by Wednesday.



HOWEVER, if the Fleece switch is wired through the ECM (lets just say the ecm is still behind the switch so that you can still turn the EB function completely off ), but the Fleece programming still detects a "0" for the TPS while in CC, won't it still try to engage the EB, as the vane actuator motor is still actually operated by the Fleece controller ??

 

[AH64ID]

Not really. If you wire it just like you would on a Pac/Jacobs brake where your switch provides a ground to ECM Pin #39, then ECM Pin #42 goes to the Fleece controller, you will not get a signal to the controller when the CC is engaged as the ECM knows it's not the correct time for the EB. As long as you can eliminate the EB delay in the Fleece controller it will work nearly as fast as a standard EB, and thats the way Fleece should do it.

 

[seafish]

Not really. If you wire it just like you would on a Pac/Jacobs brake where your switch provides a ground to ECM Pin #39, then ECM Pin #42 goes to the Fleece controller, you will not get a signal to the controller when the CC is engaged as the ECM knows it's not the correct time for the EB. As long as you can eliminate the EB delay in the Fleece controller it will work nearly as fast as a standard EB, and thats the way Fleece should do it.

OK... I'll post back as soon as I find out if the delay on the Fleece controller is programmable.

 

[seafish]

Called Fleece just now dring my lunch break.

Caleb claims that there is NO delay in the engagement of the EB--

If the switch is on, as soon as the controller "sees" a "0" TPS, then it engages the brake. The delay is ONLY the amount of time for all the electronix to talk with each other.



If that is the case, then it COULD be wired the way you are suggesting, using the ECM to control the EB...



That being said, since it is STILL the Fleece controller that is MOVING the vanes, and since the Fleece controller might still see a "0" when the oem CC is engaged, it still might try to engage the EB when the CC is on, even though the ecm might not be trying to engage the EB,right??



I am pretty confused about this issue, even though you make it sound so simple!!



Worse case scenario for me, though, is NO EB with the CC engaged, unless I can wire around it either using your ECM solution or my CC relay on/off solution.



SO, I still will move forward with this mod when I have the money!!

 

[AH64ID]

That being said, since it is STILL the Fleece controller that is MOVING the vanes, and since the Fleece controller might still see a "0" when the oem CC is engaged, it still might try to engage the EB when the CC is on, even though the ecm might not be trying to engage the EB,right??

No because the controller would be seeing a signal from the switch to activate the EB.