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Increase Of % of Ethanol Will Cause Damage

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Increase of ethanol in gas will cause damage to certain vehicles

Published: Sunday, September 04, 2011, 8:15 AM Updated: Sunday, September 04, 2011, 8:31 AM

By Bob Marshall, The Times-Picayune

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<!-- -->I was trying to summarize the nightmare Pete Landry was describing, and suggested this: Come fall, Louisiana's 320,000 boaters will begin unwittingly filling their tanks with the new 15 percent ethanol fuel blends (E-15), resulting in millions of dollars in unnecessary damage, not to mention broken dreams.

"Oh no," Landry said, "It's much worse than that. "

Worse?

"This won't just impact sportsmen. The E-15 also can't be used in motorcycles, jet skies and any lawn equipment or anything else that that uses these small, oil-cooled engines.

"We're talking probably millions of people impacted. We're facing a real crisis. "

Landry is no Chicken Little. He's a retired oil- and petrochemical-industry chemist who has spent the past few years as a pro-bono researcher investigating the impacts of ethanol blends on sportsmen and others.

When you check out the results on his website, PeteLandrysRealGas.com, you realize the sky really could fall.
Some history.

In 2007, President George Bush signed the Energy Independence and Security Act, which, among other things, required a 20-percent reduction in gasoline consumption by 2017. Much of that was to be achieved by the use of renewable fuels, a goal encouraged by a 45-cent per gallon tax credit to refiners for producing ethanol blends -- the Volumetric Ethanol Tax Credit.

This was a hugely popular event across political lines, but the euphoria didn't last long. Turned out corn-based ethanol actually costs more energy to produce than it saves. The rapid expansion of corn acres resulted in an increase in fertilizers that harm waterways, a loss of wildlife habitat, and soaring food prices worldwide.

While those impacts were generating headlines, what had been thought would be a small list of costs to a whole range of internal combustion engines began climbing. Ethanol, which is basically grain alcohol, collects moisture in fuel tanks, and is corrosive to hoses and engine parts not specifically engineered to handle it. That list would only climb as the refiners moved to meet the government's gradually increasing percent of ethanol.

This fall, we'll be hitting the E-15 mark, a level considered unsuitable even for new outboards, almost all small engines, and any car built before 2001.
The Environmental Protection Agency will require retailers to post a label on pumps stating the fuel should not and, in fact, cannot legally be used in anything other than passenger vehicles produced after 2001 and Flue-fuel vehicles.

But Landry says chaos is bound to ensue for two reasons: That label is much too small and not specific enough, and neither state nor federal governments are requiring refiners and retailers to produce enough ethanol-free fuel.

In fact, the alternative fuel subsidies give refiners a market incentive to produce most, if not all, of their fuel with ethanol, a far higher volume than the government currently requires. In June, the Marathon refinery in Garyville, which had been the state's largest ethanol-free producer, went all-ethanol. Since then, Landry said, the list of gas stations selling ethanol-free fuel dropped by 54 to just 977 -- this out of an estimated 3,650 stations.

"Availability is a huge problem for retailers," he said. "And that's going to get worse. Louisiana now has four refineries producing ethanol-free fuel, and that number could drop because a federal exemption for small refineries is about to expire. "

"Ethanol-free gas is already more expensive, and when we start losing in-state refineries, it will just go higher," Landry said. "My fear is that when this E-15 goes into effect, people who don't know the danger will pull up to a gas station and miss that label, or just look at the price and go to the cheaper fuel and do real damage to their engines. "

So what can be done?

Some help may be coming soon as Congress considers repealing what has become a $5 billion annual subsidy of ethanol. That could lead some refiners into becoming producers of ethanol-free fuels.
But what really needs to happen is for governments -- state and federal -- to require retailers to offer at least one pump of non-ethanol fuel. That would provide the market for refiners to offer that product.

I'm not suggesting the nation should leave the alternative fuel race. If anything, we should invest more in supporting technologies that help get us off carbon fuels. If we don't, there isn't much of a future for southeast Louisiana. But neither should millions of Americans be needlessly caught in Pete Landry's nightmare.

In the meantime, keep checking PeteLandrysRealGas.com for safe fuel near you.
 
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You have to love an article that is so full of emotional bias and one that claims damage to something with out any explanations!!!



How about telling us ethanol melts cast iron or explodes on contact with air or anything, Harvey???

In all the years that ethanol has been available, I have used it in most everything I have. I even put E-85 in them in warm weather and they run ok on it. Never had any damage. Carbs, fuel injection, doesn't matter.



Can you PROVE your POINT????
 
Got to agree with Harvey on this one. Our current E-10 gasoline has already caused problems in my mower, boat, and even my '95 Grand Cherokee and '93 Nissan Sintra. This stuff is bad news.



Scott
 
You have to love an article that is so full of emotional bias and one that claims damage to something with out any explanations!!!

How about telling us ethanol melts cast iron or explodes on contact with air or anything, Harvey???
In all the years that ethanol has been available, I have used it in most everything I have. I even put E-85 in them in warm weather and they run ok on it. Never had any damage. Carbs, fuel injection, doesn't matter.

Can you PROVE your POINT????

Can YOU prove YOUR POINT????

Please provide your evidence that adding corn-based product which absorbs moisture to your gas tank is an advantage to anyone but corn growers.
 
Can you prove it does damage besides plagiarizing a rant from some one that more than likely got it from someone else. And everybody does it for free to inform the poor little public BS there's got to be money in it for him or he wouldnt waste his time. The other side can come up with jsut as many so call pro bono experts im sure.
 
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:)
Got to agree with Harvey on this one. Our current E-10 gasoline has already caused problems in my mower, boat, and even my '95 Grand Cherokee and '93 Nissan Sintra. This stuff is bad news.



Scott



Same here in Maine, nothing but trouble with the E-10 since it was crammed down our throats 2 years ago.

Pound the blue Sta-Bil to it and hope that your outboard doesn't blow up.



The first winter was the worst, the State of Maine suffered with it's own fleet vehicles right along with the rest of us. Snowmobiles, Weed Whackers took it the worst.

Game Wardens were cooking their snowmobiles, poachers were estatic.



After the initial few tankfuls it's not so bad.

Change what you do, now you drain a fuel tank for storage rather than fill it.

Keep treating your 5 gallon storage cans with Sta-Bil, the blue is stronger.

Still doesn't last long in storage even with the treatment.



Oh, you also lose 10 to 15 percent of your fuel mileage in a car so every trip costs even more.



Way to go Feds... ...



No speculation here FOX, I'm livin' it. Come up here and play with the E-10 in cold weather, you might have not such good luck with it.



Mike.
 
I agree with Harvey, I guess that the ethanol is suppose to be alright for the newer cars but not for the older cars like 2001 & older. I guess we are all suppose to run out & buy new cars even if we can't afford them. Harvey, are you anywhere near the Texas wildfires?
 
I have been following this subject and have read where Ethanol attcks the rubber in the fuel system, inside out, and causes a lot of problems on the older engines, that are not FLEX fuel.

I guess we should stock up on the BLUE Stabil, Its called MARINE STABIL, a treatment for ETHANOL treated gasoline.
 
Ethanol or Methanol get use to it. It will eventually happen along with Bio. D and we will have to buy new car's to deal with it .
 
I agree with Harvey, I guess that the ethanol is suppose to be alright for the newer cars but not for the older cars like 2001 & older. I guess we are all suppose to run out & buy new cars even if we can't afford them. Harvey, are you anywhere near the Texas wildfires?

No, previous fires were all around me but this fire reported in the news is over around Bastrop, a little east and south of Austin.
 
Can YOU prove YOUR POINT????



Please provide your evidence that adding corn-based product which absorbs moisture to your gas tank is an advantage to anyone but corn growers.



The alcohol absorbs water that is IN the tank and helps to pass it thru the system and prevents gas line freeze in the winter.



Why should I do your homework, I'm not claiming something , as you are. I've just never had issues with it!!

What kind of damage do you see from it???

I run it in most tanks during the summer in my 99 durango. This is a stock fuel system and it is NOT rated for E-85.



I will mention that most of the threads I read are from other states besides Indiana, Illinois, Iowa.

May be something to this. There is supose to be an additive added to keep the ethanol in suspension, so your supplier may not be using it.

I've seen it added around here.

One more thing, ethanol is a good fuel but it nees to be not DILUTED with gasoline and run in engines that are set up for it. It is a high octane fuel. I know people who run it in 12-13 to one compression motors and love it. Racing fuel at the pump.
 
i agree with harvey on this. ive had extensive lectures on e85 gasoline. flex fuel vehicals have to have special lines and fuel pumps as well as special programing to handle e85. the aclohol attacks the fuel lines and pump seals as well as eats anything plastic. its nasty stuff. ive also talked with dragster drivers and owners and they all say that with pure alcohol fuels you have to have special fuel lines and pumps.



e85 is the highest level you can run and still have the engine start and run like normal even in summer. the really bad part is it is not sustainable, you put more energy into making ethanol than you get out. like harvey said in another post i read if there was a market for ethanol and money could be made off it, then the private sector would produce it willingly and the government would not have to subsidise it. thats for ethonal biodiesel i think is a different case (harvey will probably not agree with me) but only time will tell.
 
ive also talked with dragster drivers and owners and they all say that with pure alcohol fuels you have to have special fuel lines and pumps.



They're also required to wear fire suits. Maybe that's the next government mandate. :rolleyes:



Scott
 
The alcohol absorbs water that is IN the tank and helps to pass it thru the system and prevents gas line freeze in the winter.



Why should I do your homework, I'm not claiming something , as you are. I've just never had issues with it!!

What kind of damage do you see from it???

I run it in most tanks during the summer in my 99 durango. This is a stock fuel system and it is NOT rated for E-85.



I will mention that most of the threads I read are from other states besides Indiana, Illinois, Iowa.

May be something to this. There is supose to be an additive added to keep the ethanol in suspension, so your supplier may not be using it.

I've seen it added around here.

One more thing, ethanol is a good fuel but it nees to be not DILUTED with gasoline and run in engines that are set up for it. It is a high octane fuel. I know people who run it in 12-13 to one compression motors and love it. Racing fuel at the pump.



you are correct but not enterly. alcohol does absorb water in the tank yes, but where does that water come from? its coming from condinsation of the water vapor in the air onto the tank walls. it runs down the side and into the fuel. hence the reason for filling fuel tanks prior to storage, minimizes surface area for condensation.



what ratio fuel are you running? also how long have you been using it? a lower ratio fuel say e5 or e15 may not cause as many problems as e85 will.



as far as diluting ethanol with gasoline, you cant NOT dilut it. e85 is the highest ratio that a vehical can handle without going through special start up procedures. its worse then trying to start a diesel in winter on summer fuel. next time your at a drag strip or truck pull go in the pits and watch the pure alcohol cars start up. its not easy to do. in order for you to get into your vehical and turn the key like everyone is used to the fuel has to be e85 or less.



alcohol is a good fuel from race engines because you can raise the compression so high 12-13 compression is actually rather low for alcohol they can run up around the ratio a diesel runs at. 12-13 is good pump gas levels. the reason that alcohol can run so high is because of the octane. octane is a measure of the detonation point of the fuel. lower octane lower detonation. higher octane allows for higher cylinder pressures and therefore more power. its not the fuel itself that has more power. for a true measure of power you need to look at the btu's, more btu's more power. look at diesel vs. gas. ethanol is simply not a useful source of fuel. it works well in race engines because the engine is specifically built for it and i believe it is some what oxigenated, meaning it has its own oxygen, much like nitromethane.
 
One more thing, ethanol is a good fuel but it nees to be not DILUTED with gasoline and run in engines that are set up for it. It is a high octane fuel. I know people who run it in 12-13 to one compression motors and love it. Racing fuel at the pump.

Doesn't this prove Harvey's point? I have been through this problem about 10-15 years ago with a 73 dodge bucket truck, trencher, Stihl chain saw, Weedeater, and other gas powered tools I can't recall right now. The o-rings swell up and push themselves out of the places that they are installed. If I recall correctly, Nitrile o-rings are used to replace them. Ethanol WILL destroy rubber.
 
Alcohol is a poor fuel. While it resists detonation, it has much less energy available. A race motor uses almost 1. 6 times as much alcohol as it would gas for equivalent output. As for small engines, the real problem lies with how alcohol mixes with oil. I used to compete in local woodsmen's contests, and ran alcohol in my Hot Saw. You had to mix it with a castor based oil, and only mix small amounts, because it would separate if left for any length of time. Today's synthetic 2 stroke mix oil is better, but will still separate in time. I mix my saw gas daily for work and have not had any trouble, but I only run a saw for 1 year or less before trading it in, so they have all been designed for 10 percent alcohol. I can't say anything about older machines.
 
They're also required to wear fire suits. Maybe that's the next government mandate. :rolleyes:



Scott



The fire suits are already mandated for delivery of fuels. :-laf not all companies comply and in turn they get NO WORK from the oil companies that require them. They call them FRP suites :-laf lots of things that are not known about by the public :-laf and in return the cost of the fuel goes up and I hope you didnt think the oil companies are going to take the cost NO THE PUBLIC IS GOING TO ABSORBE THE PRICE OF THE FRP SUITS ABOUT $600. 00 per and they need 12 suites x how many drivers :-laf SO AGAIN YOU THINK THE OIL COMPANIES ARE GOING TO PAY :-laf:-laf:-laf:-laf:-laf
 
The alcohol absorbs water that is IN the tank and helps to pass it thru the system and prevents gas line freeze in the winter.

Why should I do your homework, I'm not claiming something , as you are. I've just never had issues with it!!
What kind of damage do you see from it???
I run it in most tanks during the summer in my 99 durango. This is a stock fuel system and it is NOT rated for E-85.

I will mention that most of the threads I read are from other states besides Indiana, Illinois, Iowa.
May be something to this. There is supose to be an additive added to keep the ethanol in suspension, so your supplier may not be using it.
I've seen it added around here.
One more thing, ethanol is a good fuel but it nees to be not DILUTED with gasoline and run in engines that are set up for it. It is a high octane fuel. I know people who run it in 12-13 to one compression motors and love it. Racing fuel at the pump.

Duhhh, well gee whiz. We wonder what that something could be that causes residents of these three corn producing states to like ethanol.

Could it be they love the subsidies to corn producers which is spread to everyone who is directly or indirectly involved with this massive fraud on the taxpayers?
 
There are not many racers switching to ETHANOL from Methanol fuels, yet but some are for costs reasons.

Harvey, I was refering to ethanol problems not the subsidies and who

benefits from it.

I see you won't answer my first question.

Continue on with your rant, I'm finished!!!
 
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