Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting Moly coated bullets

[The patriot]

Patriot, Its true!!! And the "laws of physics" as they can be applied means you can ADD MORE POWDER:-laf!!! More powder means MORE VELOCITY!!!!Be careful as you approach your new maximum load! I take advantage if this at every opportunity! Thats one reason I LIKE MOLY!!! Good Shootin', GregH

Oh, I thought you were shooting factory ammo.



I know you can add more powder. Precision shooting had a couple good articles on this a while back. Along with some good ink on the 45-70 with moly.

What I've researched on Melonited (QPQ)barrels is very similar.

My thinking is that the more powder you add, the faster you burn out the barrel. So it's a wash.

I've tried the moly, and for me it's not a real advantage. JM. 02

 

[The patriot]

HH, yes IIRC slower powders are more suitable to the use of moly.

 

[GHarman]

Oh, I thought you were shooting factory ammo.



I know you can add more powder. Precision shooting had a couple good articles on this a while back. Along with some good ink on the 45-70 with moly.

What I've researched on Melonited (QPQ)barrels is very similar.

My thinking is that the more powder you add, the faster you burn out the barrel. So it's a wash.

I've tried the moly, and for me it's not a real advantage. JM. 02

Patriot, High pressure and high gas temperature and hot barrels will burn out a barrel. Not necessarily just by adding more powder.

Here is a subjective observation; The . 30/338 is still going strong after 800-900 rounds of very high pressure loads that I would consider well above maximum. No SAAMI Spec pressures are available, as this is a wildcat round circa 1970, however I would consider normal range to be @ 60,000/65,000PSI chamber pressure. The signs I am seeing are well above that indicator. Knowing that the yield point of brass is ~ 80,000PSI

My objective parameters are;

A hard barrel, R-38C, If I remember correctly.

A bore coated with molybdenum disulfide during shooting sessions.

Barrel not overheated by extended strings of fire.

Conclusion; A potential 33% of the continued barrel life I can contribute to the use of Moly.

This is not a junk barrel either. The barrel is an H-S Precision 10X cut rifled tube. The 10x is a proprietary designation for their rifling form with radii at the root of each land and grove intersection.



Your situation is entirely different. High humidity environment and the need to keep things simple.

While I may hunt with moly coated bullets this year, I will probably go back to uncoated bullets for the sake of keeping the cleaning regimen down to a dull roar when away from the range. However the accuracy potential is IMHO, optimized by the use of moly. The bullet engraving is practically flawless with no aerodynamic spoilers created by displace metal. The next step, for me would be a bullet pointing die to further optimize B. C. in flight.

While I am not a well known competitor in the National shooting circuits, I do love to experiment and see optimum results for my efforts. GregH

 

[HEMI®Dart]

The patriot,



A 45-70 Government kicks pretty hard right?

 

[HEMI®Dart]

It was a factory . 308 Remington. The bore had several cracks alongside the lands, and often copperfouled badly after just 20 rounds..... In testing, it picked up 90+fps with 168gr SierraMKs, and pulled the group down to 1/4 MOA.

That's a substantial increase in velocity!

 

[The patriot]

The patriot,



A 45-70 Government kicks pretty hard right?

It does @2000 fps using a 405 jhp. :{Oo.



The Marlin has the ergonomics of a broom.

 

[The patriot]

Patriot, High pressure and high gas temperature and hot barrels will burn out a barrel. Not necessarily just by adding more powder.

Here is a subjective observation; The . 30/338 is still going strong after 800-900 rounds of very high pressure loads that I would consider well above maximum. No SAAMI Spec pressures are available, as this is a wildcat round circa 1970, however I would consider normal range to be @ 60,000/65,000PSI chamber pressure. The signs I am seeing are well above that indicator. Knowing that the yield point of brass is ~ 80,000PSI

My objective parameters are;

A hard barrel, R-38C, If I remember correctly.

A bore coated with molybdenum disulfide during shooting sessions.

Barrel not overheated by extended strings of fire.

Conclusion; A potential 33% of the continued barrel life I can contribute to the use of Moly.

This is not a junk barrel either. The barrel is an H-S Precision 10X cut rifled tube. The 10x is a proprietary designation for their rifling form with radii at the root of each land and grove intersection.



Your situation is entirely different. High humidity environment and the need to keep things simple.

While I may hunt with moly coated bullets this year, I will probably go back to uncoated bullets for the sake of keeping the cleaning regimen down to a dull roar when away from the range. However the accuracy potential is IMHO, optimized by the use of moly. The bullet engraving is practically flawless with no aerodynamic spoilers created by displace metal. The next step, for me would be a bullet pointing die to further optimize B. C. in flight.

While I am not a well known competitor in the National shooting circuits, I do love to experiment and see optimum results for my efforts. GregH

The little I used it I used CRC aerosol moly.

Heat the bullets with a hair dryer and spray on a light coat.

I did compete a little. I was on the high end of the "sharpshooter" classification. Far too little time for practice.



Now I have the time, but too many physical limitations. #@$%!

 

[GHarman]

Patriot, I understand! GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

GHarm, remember the operating range on modern bolt action firearms is 60,000psi..... SAAMI specs... .



Patriot, the Marlin does have a handy little handle... . if you want to use it for a club!!! I've got a 450 Marlin, and it'll make you mad to shoot it!!! At least if you miss the bear or don't kill it, you're ready to fight when he gets there(and deaf from the Magna-ported barrel so you can't hear yourself scream!!!)



HEMI, it was strange that the . 308 did that. One reason why I mentioned it..... Dad had the same experience with it several months later when he ran some "Gun Juice" down the bore. He said it picked up close to 100fps..... It was always prone to flyers, and I think the bore was the problem... . hence the reason Dad ended up with it... . it eventually succumbed to the action wrench, and is now living peacefully as a tent stake..... the barrel, that is. I really don't remember where the action is.....



GHarm, have you seen the book by Bryan Litz, Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting? It's a fascinating read, if you get to a place that might actually have it..... he makes you think, and has real results, not just calculated, on most bullets produced. He tests hunting and match bullets, and gives his thoughts on both..... lots and lots of data and lots of results, tests, ..... it goes on and on. It's well over 500 pages of pertinent information, if you like to shoot..... Home



I haven't got to finish it yet, it keeps ending back up at my Dad's house. He'll give it back to me, I'll reread several sections, finally ending back up to where I was, and then I'll have to put it back down, and the next time I see it, Dad's walking around with it!!! It's pretty good, if you like techinal..... and I know you get a lot of downtime when you get your kinks..... ok, now I'm droning..... OUT.

 

[GHarman]

Thanks HHhuntitall! I've read some articles by litz. He's really GOOD! I'll look into the book! Yes I love to shoot just as much as you doOo. ! It just aint as handy as it used to be! Kinks? What kinks:-laf?

BTW, Whats a SAAMI? Sounds like sumfin ta eat:-laf! Is that ham or beef?

Did you see them brass HP bullets by the same mfgr. you talked about in your "copper bullet" thread? Those would make a . 45/70 rear up and kick like a mad mule, with both feet, driven at 2000+ FPS!!!! You would not want to practice with them much! They cost more than fodder for a . 50BMG! GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

Thanks HHhuntitall! I've read some articles by litz. He's really GOOD! I'll look into the book! Yes I love to shoot just as much as you doOo. ! It just aint as handy as it used to be! Kinks? What kinks:-laf?

BTW, Whats a SAAMI? Sounds like sumfin ta eat:-laf! Is that ham or beef?

Did you see them brass HP bullets by the same mfgr. you talked about in your "copper bullet" thread? Those would make a . 45/70 rear up and kick like a mad mule, with both feet, driven at 2000+ FPS!!!! You would not want to practice with them much! They cost more than fodder for a . 50BMG! GregH

Yep, there are Barnes and Woodleigh bronze alloy bullets, lathe turned solids for dangerous game. I've thought about if I go to Africa, I might build me a 458 Win mag or 416 Rigby/RemMag. I like the . 40 cal. They have better balistics than the . 45, I think. But then, I don't want to hunt any dangerous game..... I really just want to shoot some Hyenas and maybe an antelope or so. And I don't care for a mount, I just want to try the meat!!



But yeah, they'd make a 45/70 "Walk and Talk!!!" uch: They'd be alright in a Marlin, though, where you could up the chamber pressure to 50Kpsi... . uh, I mean 45k... .

 

[The patriot]

HH, yup. Mine has the factory porting that's now discontinued.

I'm not very popular at the range.

40K + psi loads out of a relatively short barreled, ported45-70 makes quite a concussion. :-laf

 

[HHhuntitall]

Boy, that's no lie!!! I fired my . 450 when I first got it, shooting off the shop porch at some pistol targets I had up at 50yds. I thought I busted my right ear drum!!! Holy cow!! I've had several over the last few years, and I finally ended up with a SS Guide gun in 45/70. I have hopes of getting a Lilja octagon barrel and making it a 28" custom bear gun. Not that I want to shoot bear... I just want to try and get a heavy . 45 bullet up over 2500. The new Hornady Leverlution bullet will make it possible, I think. And they shoot well, especially for what we've had in the past!! Maybe if I Moly coat 'em it'll help... ...

 

[GHarman]

HHhuntitall, If you want terminal performance on hogs or bear with the . 45/70 High Pressure loads. Try Hawk bullets. While not streamlined like the Hornady. They will mushroom out to 3/4" or better with amazing transfer of energy. The 350 Gr. hollowpoint loaded with Reloader 7 was my favorite gamegetter in an 1895 Marlin. You may find better powders and I have tried several as well as different bullets. The flat points are probably better, 350-400 Gr. weights for big bear. My good Friend took my 1895 to Canada and busted a huge Black bear with the Hawks. I was loading the . 458" X . 025" jackets. Please see:
Hawk Precision Bullets PRICE LIST

You could molycoat them:-laf! Course you may have trouble keeping the proper seating depth under recoil.
These bullets do not have a cannelure for crimping. However the jackets are very soft. When loading I full length size and chamfer, only, no expander button. Then seat the bullet, using multiple crimp settings to hold the bullet in place. I imagine the recoil with the Guide gun would be quicker than the full sized rifle? Heavy crimp required. GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

GHarm,



I've had friends that have shot bears with the 350 Hornady, and they've had good luck. I've only shot Black bear, and I was using a . 270, most successfully, I think. But Tommy and Mike both were shooting a . 458 WinMag I loaned out to them. Mike bought it from me after that. It was a heavy rifle, and he liked that it didn't kick as much as others he'd had. It was just an old Mod 70, but it shot pretty well. I thought it kicked like a ticked off mule... ... Anyway, the 350gr was doing 2600fps, so it did the job well. Tommy isn't much of a shot, so he fired 3 times, but Mike only shot once, side shot to the lower skull/neck. Instant drop, his guide couldn't believe it dropped like that.



MY POINT (sorry, I get sidetracked... ) is that I've shot quite a few of the . 458 bullets, and most do ok. The Hornady's are my favorite for that type of shooting, but I'm sure there's better out there. Surprisingly, one other that I tested that I thought worked well and was somewhat accurate was a Winchester 510gr factory bullet. They were cheap at the gunshow, as no one would buy them, so I thought I would. I was on a big bore kick for awhile, for some reason. Maybe I just felt like getting kicked..... and the 510 DID kick!! It'd make my old Mod 70 rear up and WALK! It'd torque really bad, too!! I guess from the weight of the bullet down the bore? It would get 15-20* out of line everytime on the bench! I didn't like the fact that the best load was barely over 2000fps. Any hotter and it just plain wouldn't group at all. I didn't care for that..... Shortly after that I came to discover the pleasures of the FCSA... . and the African cartridges fell to the wayside... . I've got a 416 RemMag reamer I've never used... .



As a result, I've heard of the Hawk bullets. I never acquired any to test. Most of my live game testing was on hogs, so you got an idea of what the bullet would do. The 350s would knock a hog down and roll it completely over!! It was fun to shoot, too. My dad always just shook his head..... he said he could hear it going off 3-4 miles away on calm evenings, and he knew who it was... The hog hunting is what got me to wanting a lever gun in . 45 cal that wasn't a short cartridge, and had some range to it. I finally got out of the two-rounds-per-magazine clan..... I think the ARs are fantastic for hogs. I don't like using the AR15 on hogs, as I have to use the AP rounds to get anything done, but the AR10s work great. I've got a . 260 that's just pretty awesome with 120grs, and they'll knock a hog out at pretty good ranges, considering the cartridge. I've also got the ol' trusty M1A1, and it works pretty well. My biggest problem with them is keeping reloads!! After a few weeks, I'm out of ammo!! I hope to get caught up with my . 260 next weekend, and get a few hundred loaded for it and my two . 284s. Time's runnin' out!! Hunting season is almost upon us!!