Air Bags = A Stiff Ride

[rlawless]

My experience in trying to improve a stiff ride. .

Initially, I removed the overload leaf and the ride was great! Very enjoyable to drive! This was with no load only. . Now, needing to tow my 10K fifth wheel I installed Timbrens and removed them after a short 100 mile trip towing my 5er. . The ride was horrible compared to the stock ride W/overload leaf installed. . the Timbren spring was constantly riding on the axle and any slight bump would throw the rear end up and felt like there was no control. .

Sold the timbrens and installed Pac Brake air bags thinking I would get the same soft ride and travel back as with the overload leaf out and use the air bag to support my 5er load. . With the required minimum 5-10 lbs. of air in the air bags, empty the ride feels choppy and stiff as though your bottoming out on bumps stops. . I have lost that soft ride feel because it seems as though the amount of travel is gone and the bag is compressing and feels like a bump stop. .

When towing the fifth wheel I pumped the air up to ride level or slightly above, equaling aprox 40-45 lbs of air. . The ride felt as though the rear end was swaying and I had no control with the camper just pushing the truck around, Edited: Also I get the jerking back and forth now while towing that I never had with the stock overload leaf set up. . W/the Stock leafs, towing the 5er was great but the rear would squat down just about 1" below level, which is another reason I wanted the air bags was to remain level. .

I thought by removing the overload leaf, it removed 3/4" - 1" of travel from the air bag, so I re-installed the overload leaf but, turned it upside down to allow for a bit more travel when empty... I still get the choppy ride and it feels like the air bags bottom out (compress) and have limited the amount of suspension travel. .

I also (some day) wanted to add 3" Thuren VR Coils on the front which will level out the back to front rake and the air bags would keep the truck level when towing. .

I have not tried towing since re-installing the overload leafs. . But, I would assume it will stop the jerking feeling and give back some feeling and control. .

Anyone have any suggestions or experiences like this with air bags??

 

[CJ8Rockcrawler]

I now have the Carli bags installed without an issue, but previously had the Firestone airbags. With the Firestones, I didn't notice anything adverse with smaller bumps, but over larger bumps or speed humps, it would feel like the bags were bottoming out. I also have the Lorenz replacement rear springs so the Firestone bags could definitely been bottoming out as they didn't have nearly the same amount of travel as the springs did. I never had the airbags on my stock suspension, so I can't give any insight there.

 

[ENafziger]

The Carli bags work great, and offer a great ride as well. However, if you're going to add 3" coils in the front, you are probably going to have to live with a slight amount of sag in the rear when towing the 5th... even with the Carli bags. I depends on the weight on your 5th pin, but the Carli bags "heavy" setting do best with about 45 - 50 psi in them. I've had them up to 110 psi before under super heavy loads, but also have blown a bag, and come close to blowing another.

--Eric

 

[AH64ID]

I have the Air Ride bags and have none of the symptoms you describe. The airbags should allow for full travel of a stock suspension (depending on air in the bags), but nothing should be effected under normal driving.

I would reinstall your overload in the proper direction. That is there for several reasons, it controls sway and axle wrap, even if the load is on the air bags.

In addition are your airbags plumed separately or together?

From personal experience if you add a 3" kit to the front and use the bags to keep it level when towing your ride will suffer because not the airbags have all the weight on them and they are very stiff! I ran a 2" level and dropped to a 1" level and the ride improvement was amazing.

 

[Regcabguy]

I've got a bit of enhanced rear travel with minipaks installed. There's no comparison in the ride between Firestone/Pacbrakes and Carli's inboard mounted airbags. Sage and I made a run on his "inland proving grounds" which consisted of some rain culverts and railroad tracks after installation.



Just leaving his shop I could sense the improved travel and ride. He had me hit some culverts at speeds I wasn't comfortable with, with the camper. Zero issues.



I had Firestones before and wasn't really aware of a choppier ride over stock w/low psi. Without minipaks or replacement rear leaves,I don't know if the Carli's would afford a better ride or not.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Most likely, you're not bottoming the air springs. Just the opposite. When the axle goes down, it limits the travel, making the axle stop, and dropping the truck, essential making more shock. I've installed many sets of air bags, including custom lift bags and semi truck setups. I even converted a gooseneck horse trailer to air ride with an electric compressor and some Firestone air bags. That worked well, but on a truck, i don't believe they have enough travel. Ever notice in the semi truck industry that the air bags keep getting taller and wider? That's to carry load and increase travel. Peterbilt long leaf air ride has bags almost 24" in height. The longer the air bag, the better the travel. The bottom overload needs to be there, as said, to control axle wrap and spring pack distortion. That's what's making it move around behind you and want to fishtail loaded. With standard air bags you're gonna get a choppier ride. Also, if you go with a taller spring in the front, you're going to change the alignment on your front axle, which can be reset, but when towing, you're going to have problems. One reason rears are a little higher than fronts. Your truck was built to tow a trailer. But you're trying to get perfect for both towing and unloaded driving. You're only gonna get a compromise on both ends. If you lift the front, it will sag when loaded in the rear. The air bags can help, but then it's going to be a little choppy. With a custom air bag setup or custom spring packs, you can fix it some. If you added a set of auxilary springs, they can be arched to make contact with the auxilary spring pads when sitting level. This will give you the best ride all around, for the money, IMO. Air bags are a good, economical, and durable solution to heavy loading, but not a fix-all. A custom air bag setup, with long air bags, such as for air ride cabs(a little light for a big 5er), air bagged trucks, and the Carli Long Travel air bag system, will give you a better ride, but it's more expensive. And they are used more as an auxilary support than a main spring support.



A good option, similar to what I've used before..... airbags airsprings

 

[AH64ID]

I've got a bit of enhanced rear travel with minipaks installed. There's no comparison in the ride between Firestone/Pacbrakes and Carli's inboard mounted airbags. Sage and I made a run on his "inland proving grounds" which consisted of some rain culverts and railroad tracks after installation.



Just leaving his shop I could sense the improved travel and ride. He had me hit some culverts at speeds I wasn't comfortable with, with the camper. Zero issues.



I had Firestones before and wasn't really aware of a choppier ride over stock w/low psi. Without minipaks or replacement rear leaves,I don't know if the Carli's would afford a better ride or not.

Any pics of the bags? They look like they mount in the same place as the Firestones.

 

[Regcabguy]

Any pics of the bags? They look like they mount in the same place as the Firestones.

I'm an idiot still at posting pics. Bob4x4's posted some very clear shots of his. Maybe he or another member can help.

 

[ENafziger]

I've got some pics of the Carli's. Not to confuse the issue, but this setup has worked REALLY well for me, although it's likely too pricey for most people to justify. My rear end consists of Carli valved Bistein 2. 65s, Carli LT air bags, Carli 4" Bilstein rear bumps, Carli full leaf replacement spring pack, and Lazarsmith traction bars.

Obviously the bags can be adjusted easily, and the 4" bumps can be adjusted quickly as well to allow additional carrying capacity. I'm still waiting on the rear bumps to come back from Sage/Carli at the moment... but a rear setup doesn't get much better than this. The ride is tremendous, I can load the rear end down heavier than is sane, or go out and pound dirt and jumps.

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--Eric

 

[AH64ID]

They do mount a little more inboard than the airlifts, which I see having pro's and con's.

Pro's would be increased articulation and a better ride on back roads.

Con's would be decreased sway control and increased axle tube strain as your further from the wheel and have more leverage on the tube.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Carli's inboard mounted air bags: Long Travel Air Bags for Dodge Ram Suspension - Air Assist For Dodge Ram

 

[seafish]

Eric, so how much does that bad as* set-up cost?

 

[ENafziger]

Con's would be decreased sway control and increased axle tube strain as your further from the wheel and have more leverage on the tube. <!-- google_ad_section_end -->

True. That's where having some heavy duty shock valving really helps.

 

[Regcabguy]

My Hellwig swaybar really helped with the minimal sway I had with the camper being mounted all the time. I only run 30# in the airbags along with Don's specially valved Kings.

 

[ENafziger]

Eric, so how much does that bad as* set-up cost?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

These numbers are off the top of my head, but I think close:

Carli LT rear air bags $850
Carli full replacement leaf springs $1100
Carli 4" Bistein bump stops $950
Carli 9100 Bilstein 2. 65 shocks, rear pair $1100
Lazarsmith traction bars $675

Throw in a Maghytec rear cover and might as well call it ~$5k.

--Eric

 

[Gonzo 1066]

I have similar symptoms with my 3500 dually with pac air bags. I tow a GN horse trailer that has about 3000# of pin weight. Generally the ride is great, but on really rough roads it seems that the suspension bottoms out. I am going to install a real full air ride suspension from Kelderman. This should cure the problem... I hope. .

 

[rlawless]

In addition are your airbags plumed separately or together?



From personal experience if you add a 3" kit to the front and use the bags to keep it level when towing your ride will suffer because not the airbags have all the weight on them and they are very stiff! I ran a 2" level and dropped to a 1" level and the ride improvement was amazing.

Bags are plumbed separately... I'm probably gonna end up replacing the overload leaf soon with the 5 leaf mini pak by Carli or Thuren. . I'm wanting a soft ride VR coil on the front for a softer ride not for the extra height... Did you swap out your OEM front coils for softer ones?

 

[AH64ID]

I'm wanting a soft ride VR coil on the front for a softer ride not for the extra height... Did you swap out your OEM front coils for softer ones?

I am still running the OEM coils. If someone offered a 1" progressive ride coil I would be all over it, but based on my experience you really start to hinder the performance of the front suspension when you add lift above 2" and don't increase control arm length. You can compensate for this with softer springs, but these trucks are heavy. . I know there are not a lot of complaints with the 3" soft ride kits, but I have no desire to go 3" in the front. Even with the 2" front lift the rear airbags took 25% more air than the 1" to maintain level and the ride was much stiffer since the bags were so stiff. With the 2" level I was only able to let the rear sag about . 5" then had to hold it up with the air, now I can let it sag about 1. 5" and the OEM lower overload has more contact which actually makes for a more stable tow. With a 3" lift up front you would be arse low anytime you had a trailer hooked up and would have a super stiff suspension from all the air required in the bags.

 

[rlawless]

Well, Guess its gonna be off with the PAC Brakes (up for sale W/2k miles on em), replace with 5 leaf mini pack and the Carli Torsion sway bar kit on the front. . I have contacted and waiting on a reply from Thuren and Kore to see if a Softer VR coil W/out the lift would be possible. .

I could care less about the increase in lift from VR coils, just want a softer ride. . I Wonder if a 3" VR Coil can be trimmed off at the top to eliminate some of the height? If ya don't run off road real hard and put some softer Carli bump stops on ya should be ok I would think. .

Another option maybe to:

If adding a leveling kit, the "Thuren" (http://thurenfabrication.com/perfshackles.htm) performance shackles could be added to the rear and installed with the additional 1. 75" of lift on the rear which would retain some of the OEM rake and maybe solving the rear sage when towing??

Will report back if there is a solution!

 

[Regcabguy]

Don's beefy shackles enable you to fine tune the rear height. Awesome product w/zerk fitting.