just installed big water Sep filter

[timelessconstructionllc]

Ok, TCDiesel and i talked and in a nutshell it's because of the possibility of the filter clogging and the bypass opening and therefore letting contaminants thru. Internally certified filters have to have a bypass. Honestly i think its bs that they are required to have a bypass, i'd rather have a clogged filter than junk getting thru.

 

[AH64ID]

I just installed a Donaldson filter head and Donaldson p551000 water seperator filterbeteeen the tank and my lift pump. After the lift pump I have the OEM filter/seperator then between that and the cp3 I have a Donaldson 2 micron filter. Does anyone see a problem with having the big water Sep filter before the lift pump? This was just the easiest way to set it up but I can change it if i need to.

That's the best place to install it.

Ok, TCDiesel and i talked and in a nutshell it's because of the possibility of the filter clogging and the bypass opening and therefore letting contaminants thru. Internally certified filters have to have a bypass. Honestly i think its bs that they are required to have a bypass, i'd rather have a clogged filter than junk getting thru.

Show me the bypass!! They clog and stop flow, ask anyone who plugs a fuel filter. I have never understood his opinion on that, as it's the only place I can find it. . If there was a bypass you wouldn't get a pressure fluctuation as filters get used. His previous posts are that any filter for internal combustion has to have a bypass, where is they bypass in the OEM filter. Gas engines are internal combustion and their filters don't bypass.

The most popular "2um" filter it the Cat. I have called and asked Donaldson (makes the best cross and more efficient than the Cat) and the filter does not have an internal bypass, which is how the Cat is built as Donaldson would have to install one if the Cat filter spec'd one. The 1R-0750/1R-0749 are the same design with different amounts of media. . same as the P551313, P551311, P551315.

I will be changing filters shortly and will cut it open an post up the photos.

If TC is so tired of the internet hype he should stay off it, only way to correct it is to provide proper information. Really I am sure this is just his marketing ploy. . create a disturbance and offer a free result if you call his place of business, no that's not marketing at all!

Even if it were to bypass why not have it there? If the first 2 did their job then the fuel should be clean enough to Bosch standards (PF7977 in the OE canister) and if you bypasses the final filter it would still meet Bosch standards.

Also if a filter bypasses and you have a fuel psi gauge you would see pressure drop, then come back up during heavy fueling... anyone ever seen that?

 

[TCDiesel]

If the filter is NOT ICC then legally it cannot be install in direct injection systems. You have 1 truck You Don't sell or modified any component's You only Cheerlead. . What Maybe 2% of all owners are NET posters. . If someone disagrees with you INTERNET cheerleaders You get all disgruntle. At this point I'm am fed up With You AD . . NOW lets put your mouth on the net ... You name the Place I will bring the contaminates Water/ 1 gallon and 1 pint of ground 10mic Material YOU can dump it in My Auxiliary Tank and then Pump 33 Gallons into My Factory Tank ,I will Place the Same amounts into your system Lets see what happens.

 

[TCDiesel]

I have NO problem and would encourage MORE filtration Prior to the Factory Filter canister ,its after the factory canister that If factory Filter gets Plugged the Vacuum on the Gear May pull the contaminates form the additional Filter, 20hg can easily collapse most filters, Now If the additional filter has NO bypass I see no reason NOT to have it thier. . What Most readers don't hear about systems that are popular when they fail this thread is exactly why. .



Here's picture of what happens when CP3s are starved for fuel,this was a modified Pump. Owner claim NO drop in Pressure Until the pump failed. His sensor was inline under Factory can between Factory can and additional filter.



Now if you add to much pressure over X amount of time you blow by your filters and add wear to the gear Pump, Or if the Pump is modified you may increase the internal pressure to the point you pop the center O-ring.



I see this on a weekly Basis,For all readers and members YOUR choice is Keystroke Kings or Facts. 99% of the time the factory filter is adequate,its 1 % you need to be concerned about, The question is will MY system STOP potential destruction or add to it.

 

[AH64ID]

Provide some proof already, that's all that is being asked. Nothing supports your statements about the filters being discussed having an internal bypass.

I always enjoy learning new things, but just like you, I need proof. The research I have done on these filters is from the manufacturers and uses the same SAE standards. Every disagreement we have had on filters involves your opinion, as the published spec's don't match what you state. I realize that you have a ton of experience, but ever think that because you deal with a lot of failed parts that your view is biased towards failure?

I don't disagree that a pump will fail from lack of fuel, which is why a pressure sender post filters and pre-CP3 is a must, IMHO. As you know the CP3 is more concerned with flow than pressure (OEM Bosch specs are -5 to +15 psi).

The factory system does not even meet Bosch specs, just OEM specs (gotta love when the end user doesn't follow the recommended specs). If the owner does some filter research, and monitors their system then the problems are reduced and overall effectiveness is increased. . but as with any modification you need to understand what you are doing.

Can you also explain why pulling contaminates from a "2um" filter is worse than the OEM one? If you have a plugged filter and the CP3 pulls contaminates thru it would you rather have it pull the contaminates that made it thru the 10-20um filter, or the ones that made it thru the 5-7um one? If your last filter is only getting particles smaller than 7um then pulling thru it isn't as big a deal as a filter that's being fed 7+ size particles.

 

[TCDiesel]

I went a little to far on Post #23 AD... AD you must agree their are way to may variables on CR systems that just don't comply with logic, Check the Design on the OEM can, it filter form the outside then pull out on the Bottom,most spin-ons filters form the outside and is pulled form the Top with the bypass spring on the Bottom. So what happens what vacuum over comes the Pressure the Spin-on is being fed?

 

[AH64ID]

Yes there are lots of variables, but with some common sence and lots of research you can design a system that is good for 95% of the public, just like trucks are built. . I could design a system that was 99. 9%, but it still comes down to the end user following published procedure.

Just because a filter has a spring does not mean that it will bypass, the spring keeps the media firmly against the top to avoid bypass. The spring would have to sence the pressure differential across the media, and just putting a spring on the bottom will not do that as the design of the filter/spring doesn't use a low PSID to keep it from bypassing.

You could collapse the media, which is filter failure and not a bypass... and why OEM filter change intervals must be used and/or pressure gauges.

 

[TCDiesel]

AD have You ever seen the internal filter on any CP3? wear is it located What material is it made of? What type? What happens to the low pressure circuit? What type of system do you want, one that filters Better... . or one that Completely STOPS contamination?Do want to filter the trash or Dam it.

 

[AH64ID]

I presume that by AD you are referring to me...

I want a filter/pump that meets Bosch spec for pressure/flow and exceeds their specs for filtration. . I have that setup, not much else can be done and maintain a realistic filter service life or leave one stranded.

OEM wants 7um @ 98. 7%, Bosch wants 5um @ 98. 7%, I run <3um @ 98. 7%, and have 2 f/w seps rated at OEM rating. There are not many trucks out there that run better filtration, I am pretty sure my fuel is clean enough.

Is there an internal filter on the CP3?

I know the Zinga system works for you, but based on my research (more hours than I want to admit) anything with a J1985 single pass rating of 5um or less is what's needed and <3um is as good as it gets... . I only recommend filters that meet those specs.

 

[TCDiesel]

Yes their is. . and when they get 50% plugged its BOOM when being pushed to the limits. HPCR Pumps have Low & High side,03/06 CP3s had two circuits of travel Low/high it was possible to plug the filter too x amount and and the cooling circuit was restricted. all 6. 7 LBZ pumps have a bypass passage to feed the Pump. All of our modded pumps get this filter removed and with the 6. 7 and the LBZ we add to the cooling passages. The 5. 9 we just remove the filter. I think Bosch install this filter to protect the pump eventually it becomes a problem and needs removal,What interesting their is NO part # for it and it is NOT serviceable, this tells Me the maker Knows that this will protect xxx miles and present some short of problem. In other words OUT OF WARRANTY THANK YOU.

CP3s D-max, 5. 9,6. 7, LBZ are a great pumps ,the NEW CP3. 4 is a throw away. I have not had time to look into the Scorpion Pump.

 

[AH64ID]

Interesting. . I am guessing the internal filter is like a lot of component filters on our aircraft systems in that its rated at a higher (worse) micron rating, and is only designed to keep out the particles that will keep it from working. . but won't do anything for increased wear?

Our hydraulic system has 5um filters, but the pumps/servo's, etc all have 70-250um "last chance" filters.

Did Dodge ever put the 6. 7 CP3 on the 5. 9? As in warranty work? When my CP3 was replaced for a seep in 2008 I was told (thou didn't really believe) it was the new upgraded model... At least I have had "2um" filtration on it since day 1.

 

[TCDiesel]

2007. 5 6. 7 had the D-Max manifold, 2008 and Current have much better manifold passages, More efficient the COV on all current model is more robust,Although it fails just like any spring valve.

 

[AH64ID]

Do you know if the 6. 7 pump superseded the 5. 9 pump, or are the different at the dealership still?

Okay so I did a fuel filter change today and cut open my 2 canister filters. The Cat 1R-0750 doesn't even use a spring to help seal, it's just a fixed piece and looks like a very nice design; however, it is rated a little lower than the Donaldson P551313 so I have switched to the Donaldson.

The cat appeared very very clean for having put 613 hours on it (burned 1455 gallons and probably pumped more than 34,000 thru it!), apparently the Baldwin PF7977 is doing a good job at stopping contaminates (thou the Cat should only have been getting less than 5um particles fed to it). It will not bypass if it plugs.

#ad


The first filter I ran this time was a FS19823 from the Mopar Sever Duty Filtration kit. Rated 25um absolute, 95% free and 95% emulsified water sep. It didn't look too dirty, but also only had 282 hours and 685 gallons burned on it (about 10,000 pumped thru it). It uses a spring to seal the in/out from each other but doesn't have a setup for bypassing if plugged either.

I put a Baldwin BF1212 back on this time as Smarty doesn't have a tune to enable the 2nd WIF sensor so I am not going to pay for a filter with the sensor when I can't use it.

#ad


The Baldwin looked the dirtiest. It has the same hours/gallons as the Cat and the filter ahead of it was 20um for the first 13K miles and 25um for the last 8K miles so I am not surprised.

#ad

 

[TCDiesel]

In order for correct testing you would Need to contaminate the fuel,This is just showing me YOU have clean fuel,When I work at Williams We cut open filter(s) that had over 5 million+ gallons pump through them,the plant only change them when the Flow rates drop $$$$$$$$$. He's some good reading page 3 last 2 Paragraphs. http://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/Mobile_The_Micron_Rating.pdf



Just for comparion zake, I left My Zinga filter on for 4. 5 (2003 to 2008) years and 60K, My factory filter was Not change until 78K,It now has its 2nd Factory Can filter at 130K, I change My Zinga at 7/10/10,it is still on. I pull My factory Can filter 1-3 times a year. if it looks good I put back In and keep running it.



The truck still Has Factory pump (I modded 2004) and factory Injectors.



By the way When I cut My Zinga filters open the Media is Synthetics, Not Paper and it tough.



Again the Question is . . Do you want good filtering or do You want a system that will STOP any Type of contamination if it happens. I want a system or Filter that will STOP Contamination NOT just filter it through.

 

[AH64ID]

Again the Question is . . Do you want good filtering or do You want a system that will STOP any Type of contamination if it happens. I want a system or Filter that will STOP Contamination NOT just filter it through.

As in previous thread I ask it back at you, considering you bashing our setup that is MORE efficient based on industrial standards.



IIRC you run the Zinga ZAE filters, they are rated on ISO 16889 standards. ISO 16889 is a multi-pass hydraulic filter rating. The best ZAE is 4um absolute multi-pass.



The Cat 1R-0750 pictured above is 4um absolute single pass, J1985 fuel filter specs. The Donaldson P551313 is 3um absolute single pass, J1985 fuel filter specs.



Both of those filters will plug and stop flow, not bypass like you try to tell everyone an internal combustion rated filter will do.



So again I'll ask you, where is the proof?



The proof is out there, and it contradicts most of what you post about filters.

 

[Mikey-KE7LBB]

I'm glad that it seems the two of you are after the SAME thing... CLEAN fuel!!!



Been an interesting read and I'm glad to see that everyone has got on the same page... So to speak :-{}



I think that EVERYONE reading this (and the 100's) of other posts on the same subject, are simply looking to make the Cummins last darn near forever!!!



I personally run additional filtration (CAT filters) simply because the stock setup doesn't meet Bosch's minimum standards and I have a problem with that!!!#@$%!



Lots to learn on this subject and glad to see there are a few smart folks on here schooling the rest of us on things that we may not have time for.



Thanks to ALL that have chimed in on the subject!!

 

[TCDiesel]

I'm glad that it seems the two of you are after the SAME thing... CLEAN fuel!!!



Been an interesting read and I'm glad to see that everyone has got on the same page... So to speak :-{}



I think that EVERYONE reading this (and the 100's) of other posts on the same subject, are simply looking to make the Cummins last darn near forever!!!



I personally run additional filtration (CAT filters) simply because the stock setup doesn't meet Bosch's minimum standards and I have a problem with that!!!#@$%!



Lots to learn on this subject and glad to see there are a few smart folks on here schooling the rest of us on things that we may not have time for.



Thanks to ALL that have chimed in on the subject!!

Yep ... That's why the factory Can says (MOPAR) but even at that the factory canister design is better then O about 85% of the Spin-ons.

 

[TCDiesel]

As in previous thread I ask it back at you, considering you bashing our setup that is MORE efficient based on industrial standards.



IIRC you run the Zinga ZAE filters, they are rated on ISO 16889 standards. ISO 16889 is a multi-pass hydraulic filter rating. The best ZAE is 4um absolute multi-pass.



The Cat 1R-0750 pictured above is 4um absolute single pass, J1985 fuel filter specs. The Donaldson P551313 is 3um absolute single pass, J1985 fuel filter specs.



Both of those filters will plug and stop flow, not bypass like you try to tell everyone an internal combustion rated filter will do.



So again I'll ask you, where is the proof?



The proof is out there, and it contradicts most of what you post about filters.

It's the Beta rating... By the Way you ever heard of NFPA? what motivates their Ratings?. . Beta 2/20/75 - 5/21/23 that means 50% of all 5 Mic ,95% of 21 Mic, 98. 7 % 23 Mic. AE-03AZL... ZAE-03 2/20/75 -2/3/4 50% of 2 Mic,95% of 3 Mic, 98. 7% of all 4 mic. Petroleum Base Fluids, ALL ON 1ST PASS. Look thats with the MAX operating Pressure 250 PSI. . Put 250 PSI on your Filters and see WHAT Happens.

 

[TCDiesel]

All Zinga Filters (Zinga is just 1 of the MANY commercial manufactures of Quality filters) All of their testing is done with 105 -250 F oils, Do you really think their ratings will Drop with Diesel at lower Temps?

 

[TCDiesel]

Hmmm Proof. . Go check out the Most sophisticated Micro Digital Machine(s) in the World,You won't fine a Donaldson filter on their $500. 000 Machine.