Quick & simple (maybe) questions

[ENafziger]

Just a couple quick questions, as it looks like I'll be spending some quality time with the 1st gen this weekend.

From reading multiple threads, I'm left with an unsettled question. Is it ok to turn up the "power" screw on the VE with stock injectors? Seems like I read that if you do, the shut off solenoid will decide to quit working in short order due to increased fuel back pressure or something?

Installing a M&H M2 fuel pin, 3200 rpm spring, M&H timing spacer, and adjusting the pump... does that raise things to about the 275 hp level? or ?? (note I have an HE351 with factory '06 intake and airbox, AirDog 150 with 1/2" lines, and 4" straight pipe exhaust, full throttle travel)

So the previous owner who lived in CO had to take the truck for an emission inspection every year. A year before I got the truck, he said the shop installed new injectors, and that they might be 40 hp, but he couldn't remember. Is there any way to tell if I have a stock injector replacement or a +40 hp without getting them flowtested?

What is a reasonably safe number to torque stock head bolts to? 125 ft-lbs?

At what power level does the stock Sach clutch become unhappy?

And finally... I'm still confused about the M&H timing spacer. Everything I read seems like more conjecture than fact. Does the spacer add any base timing advance? Or does it keep base timing the same, and simply allow the KSB to advance timing further past ~2500 rpm?

Thanks in advance

--Eric

 

[JLEONARD]

Those "quick" questions do not have quick answers.

First I do not believe that if you turn the fuel up somewhat that you'll toast the solenoid. If you turn it up all the way then you run the risk.

I never heard of M&H in my years of being here.

Not sure you'll hit 275 at the rear wheels. You may come up a little short.

Post the part number of your injectors and someone here will likely recognize what they are. I passed emissions every year in Ct with Bully Dog + 50 injectors. That's both the snap idle test and the dyno test and was never close to the limits.

I think the Sachs OEM is an excellent clutch and if not abused can handle 300 plus. I'd worry more about the Getrag than the clutch.

I would torque the head bolts to whatever the factory manual says. I don't have that info handy.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Just a couple quick questions, as it looks like I'll be spending some quality time with the 1st gen this weekend.



From reading multiple threads, I'm left with an unsettled question. Is it ok to turn up the "power" screw on the VE with stock injectors? Seems like I read that if you do, the shut off solenoid will decide to quit working in short order due to increased fuel back pressure or something?



Installing a M&H M2 fuel pin, 3200 rpm spring, M&H timing spacer, and adjusting the pump... does that raise things to about the 275 hp level? or ?? (note I have an HE351 with factory '06 intake and airbox, AirDog 150 with 1/2" lines, and 4" straight pipe exhaust, full throttle travel)



So the previous owner who lived in CO had to take the truck for an emission inspection every year. A year before I got the truck, he said the shop installed new injectors, and that they might be 40 hp, but he couldn't remember. Is there any way to tell if I have a stock injector replacement or a +40 hp without getting them flowtested?



What is a reasonably safe number to torque stock head bolts to? 125 ft-lbs?



At what power level does the stock Sach clutch become unhappy?



And finally... I'm still confused about the M&H timing spacer. Everything I read seems like more conjecture than fact. Does the spacer add any base timing advance? Or does it keep base timing the same, and simply allow the KSB to advance timing further past ~2500 rpm?



Thanks in advance



--Eric

Ummm, ok. Run the Power Screw in a round or two, back the idle down, don't worry about the fuel solenoid. Don't be greedy!! That's what my Dad's always telling me. From the sound of it, you don't want to risk having your truck down, since your other one is broke, too!! I've screwed them in as far as the idle will allow me, and the only problems I've ever had are shelled out heads and rotors..... ? I've only replaced one solenoid, but we'll have wait on cerebrusiam to chime in for a definite answer on that... ... .



As for the injectors, if you can get the number, yes, someone will be able to tell you what they are, if the nozzles haven't been changed by some shop rebuilding them. Without a flow bench test, there will be no other way to tell. I wouldn't worry about it, if I were you, at this point. It'll run much better with just the power screw adjustments.



The M&H spacer only allows it to continue advance up through the rpms, no base timing advance. Great combo with the governor spring. The fuel pin may cause it to smoke more on bottom end, most likely.



The problem you'll have now will be the Gutbag. It will start to complain a lot, and then just quit you at the worst possible time!! Your clutch should hold up well; it's larger than the 2nd gens, which usually hold 275-300hp for a while, depending on the driver and loads carried. Don't lug that baby if you can help it!! That will absolutely DESTROY the bearings in the Gutbag, especially with a power increase.



Headbolts: I believe the FSM says to toque to 90ftlbs, and then turn another 90*. Not very scientific. I usually go 120-30ftlbs on o-ringed heads. If the bolts stretch, they need to go anyway!! But that's on heads that have had a tap run down in 'em to clean 'em out. On one that's been running, I'm not sure what to tell you. Probably back one off, then retighten it... ... . they can rust pretty good on a couple of them, below the threads, so tightening them can be tricky. Remember to tighten in sequence, 30, 60, and then 90lbs if you're installing a new gasket or head.



Don't be too greedy 'til you get the other one up and running. That's why I own more than one, so I can break one and still get to work!!

 

[RSchwarzli]

Eric,



First off, be nice to the transmission! High RPMs are your freind! Ad the stock clutch wont like you in the long run. I was slipping mine at my power levels. Now I run a CON OFE.



As for RWHP, I have a 90 with a banks intercooler, ASA intake, 60 PSI valvesprings, stock injectors (although they are the larger 9mm 89/90 cpl 0804 versions), fuel screw turned in just enough to prevent runaway, full 4" exhaust, ATS manifold, and I also have an HX35 (although the 97 HX35 makes the same boost and power the H1C made just lower EGTs). I lay down 284/720 at the wheels. I say you will be over that with your mods.



Also, if adjusting the fuel screw, be mindful of runaway of you turn it too far. Make sure you have a second person with a board they can throw over the turbo if you start running off! Normally if you slowly rev the motor higher and higher it will repond to the pedal. If you have the fuel screw in too far, it will keep building even if your foot is off it! Only one way to shut it off if it starts "dieseling"... .



I would say for what you have already done, what did your baseline on the dyno read? Hard to tell what your mods gained if you dont know what you started with.



Add me to the list of not knowing M&H...

 

[RSchwarzli]

Oh, and yes my Getrag is complaining with my current power levels...

 

[ENafziger]

Hey Guys!!!

Thanks for the updates... Ok, here's where I'm at.

Friday I installed the M&H M2 fuel pin and turned the starwheel about 1/4 turn clockwise. Driving it with just the fuel pin change made a HUGE difference... hard to say, but maybe 35 -40 hp? Off idle take off was greatly improved. Truck felt great. Max boost was increased to ~ 25 - 26 vs 21 psi before the pin.

Saturday, I clocked the pump toward the head somewhere between 1/8" and 3/16". I installed the M&H timing spacer. I pulled the power screw out, removed the collar, and reinstalled. I had dad standing at the turbo with a board in case of runaway. I reinstalled the power screw to the stock position. With the truck running, I began turning the screw in clockwise. It went pretty easily for about 3/4 of a turn, and I could hear the idle rpm being raised. I stopped there, revved the engine a few times, and it sounded great... very snappy and responsive.

From what I'd read, about 2 turns of the power screw is a good number to shoot for. I went back for round two, and wasn't able to turn the screw easily any more... I figured due to my contorted position. I found a 15/64 ignition wrench that fit over the power screw, and was able to turn it about another 1/2 turn, albeit with significant resistance... so much so, that I felt to go any more risked breaking the screw. In fact, I would've never gone more than 3/4 turn after feeling this resistance, except for the fact that the pump wasn't close to runaway, and I had in mind the 2 turns that others have done.

I revved it a few times, and then adjusted the idle back down. I took it for a test drive, and was a little disappointed. The improved off-idle torque was gone... almost back to stock feeling (I assume because of the timing bump). Power started coming on stronger around 1800 rpm and felt pretty good, although I really expected more. Hitting 2500 rpm was noticeable as the pump just quit fueling, and boost dropped off quickly. The whole truck rattles and vibrates somewhat uncomfortably under the new 1800 - 2500 rpm power band, and seems to be coming mostly from the transfer case... or at least the transfer case shifter. Boost peaks now at almost 30 psi.

I pulled back in the driveway, and shut the truck off. Except that the truck didn't shut off I suppose I blew the fuel shut off solenoid? I jumped out and killed the truck manually with the pump lever.

Overall I'm kindof disappointed. After feeling what the fuel pin alone did, I was really excited to do the other mods. I'm confused as to why I couldn't turn the power screw more than 3/4 of a turn. I don't think it had ever been messed with before. Bumping the pump timing along with the M&H really must've advanced timing, because the low end grunt is noticeable gone... although, I suppose if fuel mileage increases 2 mpg or so, I'll learn to live with it. The power screw didn't really seem to add any power at all for me, although I guess it did a little because boost was up a few psi. I guess I should install the 366 spring before being completely discouraged though.

As for the shutoff solenoid... If I replace it with a new one, will it just blow again?

Thanks guys...

Eric

 

[HHhuntitall]

Was the set nut out against the collar on the fuel screw?

 

[ENafziger]

Was the set nut out against the collar on the fuel screw?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Not quite, but almost. I backed the set nut off about 1/2 turn roughly before it hit the collar.

I forgot to mention... at 3/4 turn on the power screw, the engine was snappy! Up and back down immediately. After somewhat forcing the screw another half of turn, the engine is snappy up, but takes maybe a second or second and a half to return to idle.

--Eric

 

[HHhuntitall]

Yep. The power screw has already been fooled with. Usually, you can get at least a full turn before you hit the stop collar. Sometimes, you can't get much more out of 'em after you take the collar off. I guess you're gonna have to back it down...

 

[pwerwagn]

Im not sure how so many havent heard of M&H? Havent been around forever... but their dynamic timing advance has been the topic of many discussions.



Eric... I had a similar situation on my 93 (wasnt mine at the time). The pump had supposedly never been messed with. I turned the screw ~1/2 turn and couldnt get the idle back down hardly at all. I wound up putting it back where it was when the previous owner got the truck, and thats where its been ever since. FWIW... the shut off has never failed on it.



Also, FWIW... that truck with a set of Don Morrison injectors (have no idea what size they were... Joe Donnely found them in a drawer at his house), an HX35-12, stock fuel pin ground/rotated, BHAF, 3. 5" zaust, and stock gov springs, that truck made 278 at the rear wheels through a stock auto... Im hoping the M&H pin (not sure on #2 or #3), gov spring, he351, and dynamic timing puts it in the low 300's. We shall see I guess...

 

[ENafziger]

Well, I've been playing with the pump. I backed off the power screw, and retightened just to the point of resistance. The starwheel is bottomed out, as is the T25 boost reference screw. I have an Raptor 150 set at 12 psi feeding the VE, I have removed the stock fuel filter and am running the Glacier Diesel 2 filter Water Separator and 2 micron filter. I shaved the nylon washer under the diaphragm down 0. 090", and have installed the M2 fuel pin. Other than installing the 366 spring, I'm running out of things I know to do with this pump to get more fuel out of it.

I pulled the plunger out last night, and there was a chunk out of the rubber tip. I ground it down to the metal, stretched the spring a little, and reinstalled. The truck almost stumbles now, but still won't shut off. I'm going to give it one more try looking at the rubber and stretching the spring before I install a push/pull cable.

If I go the cable route, I suppose it'd be best to remove the rubber plunger altogether to eliminate the possibility of it restricting fuel, or from being stranded if/when the solenoid dies? And with the plunger removed, I should remove the two wires and connect them together?

--Eric

 

[cerberusiam]

Yep. The power screw has already been fooled with. (

Not always, the power screw is only one aspect of the pump setup and can vary on how much adjustment is there.



Once the power screw hits much resistance all that is being done is bend the ear on the governor rack. Too much and it will jam open and no stoppy or run away.



If you can' get it to run away condition with the power screw it is just the typical lazy VE pump. The slide collar adjustment is set too low to max fuel with the limit of the power screw so it is what it is. The pump build will still meet specs for stock flow rates but you don't have much adjustment.



The shutting down at 2500-2600 rpms is pretty typical. without some more internal mods. Thats about the limit a stock VE will fuel at a high rate. There is simply not enough dwell time and large enough orfice in the fuel inlet to cram more fuel in. Even with a 3200 gov spring and some bigger injectors they just hit a wall and start nosing over. Gets worse the larger the injectors. Without increasing the case pressure beyond what the seals will take there is simply no way to fuel the engine to higher rpms.



Yeah, the extra fuel flow killed the shutoff valve which is typical. The rubber wears after a while and the flow amount will eventualy rip the rubber which is the seal. Without some fine maching the seat and metal tip will not seal the fuel and it will not shut off.



You can just pull the rod out of the solenoid use a cable or get another one and see how long it lasts.

 

[ENafziger]

Not always, the power screw is only one aspect of the pump setup and can vary on how much adjustment is there.

Once the power screw hits much resistance all that is being done is bend the ear on the governor rack. Too much and it will jam open and no stoppy or run away.

If you can' get it to run away condition with the power screw it is just the typical lazy VE pump. The slide collar adjustment is set too low to max fuel with the limit of the power screw so it is what it is. The pump build will still meet specs for stock flow rates but you don't have much adjustment.

The shutting down at 2500-2600 rpms is pretty typical. without some more internal mods. Thats about the limit a stock VE will fuel at a high rate. There is simply not enough dwell time and large enough orfice in the fuel inlet to cram more fuel in. Even with a 3200 gov spring and some bigger injectors they just hit a wall and start nosing over. Gets worse the larger the injectors. Without increasing the case pressure beyond what the seals will take there is simply no way to fuel the engine to higher rpms.

Yeah, the extra fuel flow killed the shutoff valve which is typical. The rubber wears after a while and the flow amount will eventualy rip the rubber which is the seal. Without some fine maching the seat and metal tip will not seal the fuel and it will not shut off.

You can just pull the rod out of the solenoid use a cable or get another one and see how long it lasts. <!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Hmmm... thanks for the info. I tried sanding the rubber seat and it wouldn't shut off. I pulled it back out and stretched the spring, and it still wouldn't shut off... or even start actually! So, I pulled the rubber plunger out altogether, and put a push-pull cable on it from Tractor Supply.

Is there anyway to encourage a "typical lazy VE" into becoming a "good fueling run-away engine VE"? The truck runs better, but it really doesn't feel that strong. I would guess around 235 - 245 hp.

I think I'd be happy with the 280 - 300 hp level. Would a cam in and injectors get me there? Or is my little VE doing all it is capable of at its current level?

Thanks, Eric

 

[cerberusiam]

Is there anyway to encourage a "typical lazy VE" into becoming a "good fueling run-away engine VE"?

Take it apart and set the pump up differently is the only way. Its a mechanical locked down setting of how much of the fill port is exposed.



Adding injectors will be the biggest boost becuase the stockers are just so small. You can push it up around 250 hp with just pump settings but that is about the limit.



Power equates to more fuel and the injectors are a key piece.

 

[pwerwagn]

I agree. I went from the stockers to Bosch 180's or 190's in my 93 and noticed a decent improvement. Then I went from the bosch's to some don morrison nozzles... big improvement.

I actually still have the 180/190's if you are interested Eric. They have like 15K miles on them at most.

--Jeff