DEF for 2013

[rscurtis]

They may have helped 20-30 years ago when carburetors and breaker point ignition systems were common. As for testing today, I agree, it's gone from air cleaning to money making. It's another form of "taxation".

 

[HBarlow]

And perhaps even more important - buying votes by pleasing the SF Zoo tree hugging crowd.

That crap imposed on us by the EPA stopped being about clean air 20 or more years ago.

EPA regulations force larger engines (6. 7 v 5. 9) making more hp and torque burning more fuel costing higher prices to move the same loads still getting around 10 mpg with a heavy trailer on the hitch and a little more unloaded.

 

[Deleted member 995608]

They may have helped 20-30 years ago when carburetors and breaker point ignition systems were common. As for testing today, I agree, it's gone from air cleaning to money making. It's another form of "taxation".

I agree with you but I still feel that a properly tuned carb setup can be just as efficient as an EFI satem. EFI is nothing more than a "Cadillac Carb" that cost three times as much to purchase, repair or replace.



However, I don't miss vapor lock or flooded carbs and probably wouldn't prefer to drive a carbureted vehicle as a daily driver.



I will keep my 1952 Power Wagon with a Carter carb so that I have something that actually works after the first nuke hits US soil.

 

[AfterBurner]

My truck with DEF gets 8 to 9. 5 mpg loaded (my 02 gets 10 mpg with same trailer), and has 190 ft-lbs tq less than the pickups. I'm not convinced that a move to DEF in the pickups will be of any benefit.



Also, my exhaust system now costs twice as much to repair than a pickup and has more things to go wrong. It has already been in for recall work on DEF system.



Same to worse mpg than pickups with less power and more expensive repairs; and the hunt for DEF to refill the tank every couple of months... I'd take a non DEF truck any day.



Also, while DEF is becoming more common, it's still hard to find. In a year of ownership I've yet to find a pump for DEF at a gas station, and I live 5 miles from the interstate. I have to go buy it two gallons at a time for $7 a gallon.



I thought there would be a benefit in running DEF. The only perk so far is the regular oil change intervals.

 

[Deleted member 995608]

My truck with DEF gets 8 to 9. 5 mpg loaded (my 02 gets 10 mpg with same trailer), and has 190 ft-lbs tq less than the pickups. I'm not convinced that a move to DEF in the pickups will be of any benefit.



Also, my exhaust system now costs twice as much to repair than a pickup and has more things to go wrong. It has already been in for recall work on DEF system.



Same to worse mpg than pickups with less power and more expensive repairs; and the hunt for DEF to refill the tank every couple of months... I'd take a non DEF truck any day.



Also, while DEF is becoming more common, it's still hard to find. In a year of ownership I've yet to find a pump for DEF at a gas station, and I live 5 miles from the interstate. I have to go buy it two gallons at a time for $7 a gallon.



I thought there would be a benefit in running DEF. The only perk so far is the regular oil change intervals. [/QUOTE]



This will save some coin.



No problems finding DEF around my parts, . . and I'm in Ca!

 

[rscurtis]

Friend of mine was in the Atlanta are over the holiday, it's $2. 50/gallon at the pump. The question I have is whether another container can be filled at the pump or if the DEF can only be dispensed into a vehicle. I recall reading somewhere that the DEF nozzle is activated by a magnet in the filler neck of the receiving vehicle, but don't take that as gospel.

 

[AEdelheit]

We buy it in a wine box looking thing, no special nozzle, but I did hear that it has a short shelf life so storing it for long periods will lead to more regens

 

[EDankievitch]

I think that we'd all like go back to the simple mechanical engines that we had 20+ years ago if we could. I really hate that everything is controlled by a computer today. I also feel that Steam should by the only motive force for our trains. That Steam Locomotive in Essex Ct (Check out the Thread I posted in the "other vehicles" section " A real Heavy Duty Engine") is a whole lot quieter than the LIRR GE Diesels running past my house. And they required alot of man power to make them run (read SKILLED JOBS for us worker people). I really miss my 89 Dodge the first year that Cummins was dropped under the hood, talk about loud every other morning my neighbor wold run out thinking he missed the garbage man. I also miss sitting on the side of the road in the rain cleaning and resetting a set of breaker points in my Mom's AMC Rambler just so I could make it kind of run to get home. Ah the good old days, Fix the world with a matchbook cover and a pocket knife. Yep, the good old days... How'd that old Motor bike add go ride a -----ride the best. Ride a mile and walk the rest. That's how I remember those old cars, alot of walking to get to a phone No cell phones back then. And that was all before this E15 gas we have today, Carb's don't have a chance today the gas gums them up before you get them out of the shop... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... That said we'er stuck with the EPA and the CARB rules all part of the clean air act. Hey we voted for it back in the Bush days. Unless we vote in some kind of change and we would need alot and I mean ALOT of votes to change the tide. We are stuck with emission laws. The european union has adopted rules that the whole planet can live with. Their attitude is that if you make a small effeciant engine that uses the least amount of fuel to get the job done you produce less emissions, less waste. They also use DEF to help control and clean up the NOx emissions. I have a problem when a 2011 truck gets 14-15 MP to do the same job that my old 89 did and the 89 would get 18-20 MPG doing that job. I'm all for clean air. But there has to be a better way than what we are doing today. Think back to the early 1970's we went from big block engines that would give us over 300 Hp and were not too bad on gas (say 15-17 Mpg on my Grand Father's Mustang Gt350) to the same engine in 1973 that would only make 150 Hp if you were lucky and give about 6-8 Mpg. The emission systems were in their infantcy back then and really destroyed performance. That's where Diesel emission systems are today. Yes all this "Crap" has added to the cost of owning our trucks. DEF is another expense. But in my humble opinion it's a much less wasteful way to get the job done than the regen burning system. How does pouring fuel down the tailpipe to light the Cat make my truck move forward??? If the engine was tuned to make as much power out of the least amount of fuel there would not be any soot to filter and re-burn would there. Keep an eye on the new Skytec engines from Mazda it's going to be a new approach to the emission problem. Yea computers will have the control but I think we will breath easier ... ... Hmmmm come to think of it I never changed the plugs on my Mom's 1996 Honda until now had forgot it had plugs (Yea we got over 140,000 miles out of that factory set) if it wasn't for changing the oil and filters I wouldn't know how to open the hood never had a reason to..... Got to love new tec stuff when it work it just works... .

 

[TDickerson]

Interesting comments on the upcoming SCR system and EPA. I’m currently working with the military in Germany and it appears that the U. S. EPA is definitely killing the diesel market with its overkill in emission standards. I’m getting ready to come back to the states this year, and I hope they implement the SCR with the new 2013 models and not wait until Jan 2013. I personally feel that the SCR system will allow for maybe 1-2 MPG extra over the current NOX Absorber system, so looking at the SCR system for substantial fuel economy improvements exclusively would be foolish. The main benefits I would see to the SCR system and Urea are less EGR, less regenerations therefore using less fuel, less fuel in oil dilution, and the most important thing less soot buildup in the EGR valve, Turbo, DPF, and engine itself. I just wish that Cummins would develop a separate injector, like GM did, to get rid of the regenerations through the engine by dumping raw fuel down the exhaust pipe during the exhaust stroke. This would definitely allow us to go longer between oil changes, and not dilute the oil so bad. Oo.

 

[JSawtelle]

Def usage

2011 4500 4wd C&C... ... with a dually bed mounted.

We just completed a trip with 5k lbs worth of Camper and crap... .

Bout 10-11 Mpg... ..... used 65% of a full 6 gallon tank of fluid.

Real numbers ... ... . no speculation.

Love the power and the Engine brake with Auto trans.....

I do feel a lil better about not dumping "coal" everytime I leave a stop light or romp on it like the 2001 dually did... .

When I first bought the truck it used a lot more DEF. . but as it "breaks in?"... it is using less... .

Wanted to chime in. Thanks... .

 

[WMoroni]

2011 4500 4wd C&C... ... with a dually bed mounted.

We just completed a trip with 5k lbs worth of Camper and crap... .

Bout 10-11 Mpg... ..... used 65% of a full 6 gallon tank of fluid.

Real numbers ... ... . no speculation.

Love the power and the Engine brake with Auto trans.....

I do feel a lil better about not dumping "coal" everytime I leave a stop light or romp on it like the 2001 dually did... .

When I first bought the truck it used a lot more DEF. . but as it "breaks in?"... it is using less... .

Wanted to chime in. Thanks... .

Weather. Its probaly colder now than when you first got the truck. When I had my C&C it used less DEF in the winter than it did when it was hot out.

 

[Deleted member 995608]

2011 4500 4wd C&C... ... with a dually bed mounted.

We just completed a trip with 5k lbs worth of Camper and crap... .

Bout 10-11 Mpg... ..... used 65% of a full 6 gallon tank of fluid.

Real numbers ... ... . no speculation.

Love the power and the Engine brake with Auto trans.....

I do feel a lil better about not dumping "coal" everytime I leave a stop light or romp on it like the 2001 dually did... .

When I first bought the truck it used a lot more DEF. . but as it "breaks in?"... it is using less... .

Wanted to chime in. Thanks... .

I never lost any sleep over it. It's not like your truck was belching like the comp trucks do.



Although I'm in support of the use of DEF (only because I think the current 6. 7 system is abosolutely stupid) I think the diesel required emissions in a whole are stupid.



How can a emissions strapped diesel that uses more fuel and more oil be better for the environment? After all, that's what EPA is claiming.



Before I converted my 5. 9 2500 to a DRW, I could easily get between 18/19 mpg at 2000 rpm or less. I drive about 25k a year so that's almost 1400 gallons of diesel and about 3. 5 oil changes per year.



From what I gather on the 6. 7, 14 mpg is about average and the oil needs to be changed way before 7k. So if I drive 25k, that's almost 1800 gallons of diesel and I'm guessing about 5/6 oil changes per year.

 

[WMoroni]

My 2011 HO dually only averages about 10. The oil change light came on at 7100 miles. The oil wasn't diluted but was so sooty that it was almost gritty feeling. When I had my 2011 C&C it averaged about 9. 5mpg plus about 600mpg on the def (used more in summer less in winter). The oil change light always came on around 7500 miles, usaly 7499. I never sent it off but it was way less gritty than the oil that came out of the HO.

 

[DThweatt]

I never lost any sleep over it. It's not like your truck was belching like the comp trucks do.



Although I'm in support of the use of DEF (only because I think the current 6. 7 system is abosolutely stupid) I think the diesel required emissions in a whole are stupid.



How can a emissions strapped diesel that uses more fuel and more oil be better for the environment? After all, that's what EPA is claiming.



Before I converted my 5. 9 2500 to a DRW, I could easily get between 18/19 mpg at 2000 rpm or less. I drive about 25k a year so that's almost 1400 gallons of diesel and about 3. 5 oil changes per year.



From what I gather on the 6. 7, 14 mpg is about average and the oil needs to be changed way before 7k. So if I drive 25k, that's almost 1800 gallons of diesel and I'm guessing about 5/6 oil changes per year.

my 2010 avg 15 mpg, but the speeds are 75 mph out here (Nevada). Since I live outside the city limits, It is a drive of 30-60 miles one way to get to town. I have never seen my oil change light go on. I still change it at 5-7k miles.



I attribute it to all the highway miles. When the speed limit was 65 I would avg 16 mpg.



My friends identical truck (even down to tire size) just completed a trip from Chicago to Niagra falls. he avg 17. 4 mpg. these are both mega cab 4x4 3500 srw. but the speed limit avg is 55-65 mph.



If no other changes and the urea helps mileage I would be happy. But I am not complaining. my 04. 5 got the same mileage.

 

[Deleted member 995608]

my 2010 avg 15 mpg, but the speeds are 75 mph out here (Nevada). Since I live outside the city limits, It is a drive of 30-60 miles one way to get to town. I have never seen my oil change light go on. I still change it at 5-7k miles.



I attribute it to all the highway miles. When the speed limit was 65 I would avg 16 mpg.



My friends identical truck (even down to tire size) just completed a trip from Chicago to Niagra falls. he avg 17. 4 mpg. these are both mega cab 4x4 3500 srw. but the speed limit avg is 55-65 mph.



If no other changes and the urea helps mileage I would be happy. But I am not complaining. my 04. 5 got the same mileage.

Are your MPG's from the overhead dummy lights or good old paper and pencil math?

 

[S.Morris]

My son has a new DMax drw (late 2011) on the road doing emergency road service Class 8 trucks.



It is now one of 5 trucks, incl a 99,03,04. 5,05 Rams, drw 4x4's.



We went with the Dmax because of fuel mileage and the fact that idle times are sometimes quite long in cold weather. As eg: His Gmc ran 28hrs non stop, and 3 tanks of fuel avging 7. 5 USmpg. with several hrs of idling and temp at or below -10F. yesterday.



The Dmax avgs exactly same mileage as the above dodges and the oil stays much cleaner than the 3rd inj event engines. It uses approx 5usg of DEF every 4000 miles in his duty cycle. All the bigger truck stops have DEF at the pumps for 3. 20 usgal.



If the 1012 dodge would have had DEF system we would have went with the dodge.



What he likes most about the dmax is #1 how well the trans and ex brake work and #2 how quiet the truck is. (I realize that the ex brake is even more effective on the new dodge).



I will post on the good and bad as they arise on this new truck. It has 15000 miles on it as of now and hit the road in late Nov.

 

[amsoilman]

Well, after reading the latest TDR it does appear that the Ram will be using the SCR system starting in Jan 2013. If that is the case I will be waiting a little while longer to get the SCR system. I know a lot of people don't want the urea tank and something else to have to fill, but I think it will be the best alternative to achieve better fuel economy, and hopefully less regenerations and less fuel dilution as well. I just hope that Dodge puts the tank in a better place than GM did with that ugly thing hanging under the truck. Can't believe they did that. So, I'm looking forward to that and will buy the Dodge Cummins if that happens as planed.

I just attended the Auto show in Salt Lake City, and asked the question, "WHEN IS DODGE GOING TO UTILIZE DEF? The answer I received, was that Dodge/Cummins was good till the 2014 mY Pickup Trucks.

 

[TDickerson]

I just attended the Auto show in Salt Lake City, and asked the question, "WHEN IS DODGE GOING TO UTILIZE DEF? The answer I received, was that Dodge/Cummins was good till the 2014 mY Pickup Trucks.

Disappointing. Kind of makes sense though because I believe that is the year that the new fuel economy standards set in. Guess I will have to go back to the GM. I don't like the current Ram emissions system. Too much EGR and Soot. :{