Cracked DPF & Dealer Replacement Cost

[mcavs]

First, a little history:
I have a 2008 Ram 2500 6.7L I purchased used about 3 years ago with 28k miles that now has 44k and I have had zero issues, until last week. I researched this truck pretty thoroughly before buying and knew of the DPF, EGR, and turbo issues but it appeared a lot of the complaints seemed to result from under/light use, city driving, etc. which would not be how I would use it. Got it to pull a 9000 lb trailer in the mountains and occasionally drive to work (75mph interstate for ~20 miles) so gave it a chance.

The issue:
Last week it got down to -8 here in Colorado. I plugged it in the night before but when I drove to work the fuel tried to gel after about 15 miles and the truck eventually died and the CEL came on and overhead info display read Service Required See Dealer Now. I assumed the CEL and display was due to lack of fuel from gelling. After sitting 5 minutes the truck fired right back up and I proceeded to work with good power but with CEL and display still chirping. I drove like a raped ape back home to help clear the DPF because I was sure it was probably sooted up a little due to the gelling. The info display showed nothing but the see dealer message, no 70%, 80%, nothing. The next day I pulled the codes and got the infamous P200C - DPF Over Temp Bank 1, P1451 - DPF System Performance, and the P242F - DPF Restriction Ash Accumulation. Assuming they were from the fuel issue I took to the road again to do another regen to blow it out. After about 15 miles of 80MPH I noticed my EGT's were not changing so no regen. I drove another ~15 then the display showed DPF was at 80% so I turned around and headed home as it was obvious the regen was not working. By the time I got home it was at 90%. I called the dealer and they said to bring it in but I told them I lived 15 miles away and would it make it. They said it would probably go into reduced power, which it did about a mile from the dealer. After dropping it off and pulling away I noticed the tailpipe had black soot in it. I turned to my wife and remarked, "that is going to cost" because I knew what that meant; a cracked DPF.

The result:
Tech called and said the EGR was clean, MAF was clean, Turbo was clean, 2 DPF sensors bad, DPF air tubes may need replaced depending if they are fused to the DPF, and my gut feeling was correct; cracked DPF. I asked him if the gelled fuel issue caused it to crack and he said it was likely just a coincidence. Then I asked what would have caused it and he said the full DPF probably did. Then I asked if all the other stuff is clean and the truck is running correctly how can it fill up that bad and quick? He said when they pulled the ECM data it showed I had 38% idle time. I then asked if the gelling was not the trigger then with everything else okay why the CEL and display message but no % message if the DPF was filling up due to excessive idling? He never really answered that one because I don't think he could. I told him I plug it in when cold to keep from idling and I only idle when allowing EGT's to get to 350 degrees to save my turbo, I don't let it idle just to idle or warm up. So, I got a little sarcastic and asked him what is an owner suppose to do, shut down early to keep from idling so much and burn up a turbo or keep idling to save a turbo and keep replacing DPFs? I got the normal stupid look, tilted head, shrugged shoulders look.

The bend over:
$2,834

I still feel the gelled fuel had something to do with triggering the codes and cracking the DPF but don't know why. I guess I will start using that Power Services Arctic conditioner to keep from possible gelling and see what happens but wanted folks to know what could possibly happen if you get gelled fuel, if indeed that was the cause.

 

[JR]

Being most areas of the northern half of the country are transitioning into periodic arctic temps this time of year it is a good idea to dump some type of antigel conditioner into your tank if unseasonably cold temps are expected. By now the tanks at gas stations SHOULD all have winterized fuel in them but it all depends on the volume of fuel they sell and where they are getting the fuel shipped in from. I stick to one station local for my needs that I know keeps a tight ship but when I'm on the road I will stick to the higher volume fuel stations. Their fuel quality is more likely to be up to par because with hundreds of truckers filling up every day at a couple hundred gallons a crack, they have a huge reputation on the line to uphold and it would not take long for word of mouth to get out if the fuel quality was substandard.

Sorry to hear of your other problems and I can't offer any insight now that the repairs are done, hopefully now that you have some new hardware and you drive accordingly you won't have any other issues with it for a long long time.

 

[DonFitzwater]

I seriously doubt you had gelling issues. Trucks that gel up usually don't get going immediately afterward.

Your engines turbo is liquid cooled and really doesn't require cool down idle time. I highly doubt your 38% idle time was the root cause of the failure. I've seen several of these trucks that idle in places much colder than your area with no issues. Sometimes you'll never know the cause if the tech working on it isn't savvy enough to know what he's doing........

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Could it be covered under the 8 year/80,000 mile Federal emissions warranty? See your warranty booklet for details.

 

[mcavs]

I seriously doubt you had gelling issues. Trucks that gel up usually don't get going immediately afterward.

Your engines turbo is liquid cooled and really doesn't require cool down idle time. I highly doubt your 38% idle time was the root cause of the failure. I've seen several of these trucks that idle in places much colder than your area with no issues. Sometimes you'll never know the cause if the tech working on it isn't savvy enough to know what he's doing........

Yep, I knew the turbo was liguid cooled but I have yet to find any definitive answer on whether a cool down period is actually needed even though Dodge puts one in their manuals. I placed my EGT probe pre-turbo and figured if that was below 400 then I should be fairly safe since the turbo is liquid cooled.

I also don't think the idle time was the cause either and have basically chalked it up to poor manufacturing and hope the new one lasts longer.

 

[mcavs]

zzzzzzzzzz

 

[mcavs]

Could it be covered under the 8 year/80,000 mile Federal emissions warranty? See your warranty booklet for details.

It most likely would be if I had taken it to the dealer as soon as it happened. By the time I figured out it wasn't going into regen and got to the dealer the DPF had filled up and is what they are claiming cracked the DPF #@$%! I plan to still argue I had called them when it was at 90% and they told me to go ahead and drive it in so technically THEY told me to go ahead and fill it up. That also proves the crack happened before full.

It will be worth a try but don't expect to get anywhere.

 

[mwilson]

I'm thinking emissions warranty as well.

 

[mcavs]

I definitely plan to fight it since I don't see how I could fill a DPF to the point of cracking yet the EGR and everything else is showing clean. That makes no logical sense to me.

 

[Bob4x4]

A heads up,,,,many dtcs will stop the regen process from happening.So my advice would be take it in if the light comes on

 

[mcavs]

A heads up,,,,many dtcs will stop the regen process from happening.So my advice would be take it in if the light comes on

Unfortunately I realized that when I noticed my EGTs not going up like normal then it hit 80%. Call me elementary but how hard would it have been to put a "regen disabled" line in the software code so when certain DTCs are triggered that do shut it down it was included in the See Dealer Now readout? But then again, that would cut into their parts revenue stream that should actually be done under warranty.

I think I have a fairly solid argument for this to be done under the Federal Emission Warranty because I can't think of anything I did to make it crack, the service guy did say the EGR, MAP, and everything else looked fine, I have all the updated flashes so the new regen updates I should have which should eliminate excess idle as an issue (which I never did). If they tell me I don't have the updated SW then that is their fault because they are the only ones who have ever worked on the truck and should have updated it.

Guess we will find out on Monday

 

[DonFitzwater]

Good luck. I hope Chrysler picks up the bill.

 

[Jim W]

What type of fuel are you using? If you are using any type of Bio-Fuel that is above B5 than this can contribute to plugging of the fuel filter. Bio-fuel tends to have a lower tolerance to temperature under 30 deg’s F it will tend to start gelling and waxing of the fuel will occur. Here is an article on bio-Fuel cloud points. http://www.extension.org/pages/26611/biodiesel-cloud-point-and-cold-weather-issues

I know in Northern IL the fuel distributors stop distributing Bio-Fuel in Oct to ensure that the winter fuel is in the distribution system to prevent jelling of the fuel systems on diesel vehicles. I also notice a drop off in fuel economy and the fuel cost goes up for winter fuel between late Oct and early Nov.

Just another thing to keep in mind when buying fuel.

Now I would check E-bay or Craig’s list for a slightly used DPF for sale; a lot of users have for our model years removed them and they are being sold.

Jim W.

 

[mcavs]

What type of fuel are you using? If you are using any type of Bio-Fuel that is above B5 than this can contribute to plugging of the fuel filter. Bio-fuel tends to have a lower tolerance to temperature under 30 deg’s F it will tend to start gelling and waxing of the fuel will occur. Here is an article on bio-Fuel cloud points. http://www.extension.org/pages/26611/biodiesel-cloud-point-and-cold-weather-issues

I know in Northern IL the fuel distributors stop distributing Bio-Fuel in Oct to ensure that the winter fuel is in the distribution system to prevent jelling of the fuel systems on diesel vehicles. I also notice a drop off in fuel economy and the fuel cost goes up for winter fuel between late Oct and early Nov.

Just another thing to keep in mind when buying fuel.

Now I would check E-bay or Craig’s list for a slightly used DPF for sale; a lot of users have for our model years removed them and they are being sold.

Jim W.

Thanks for the idea Jim but I try and stay away from Bio anything because the tradeoffs are not worth it.

I have also scanned CL & eBay but for the price guys are wanting for a used one I think I have decided to take the hit this time if the dealer refuses to apply the warranty.

Since I bought this truck with ~30K I have no idea how the previous owner drove it. Ash accumulation (DPF life should be around 120K) shouldn't have been an issue but if the previous owner took it to 80 & 90% a lot, that would build up the ash at a faster pace then intended by Dodge (aka, severe duty). I'm having a hard time swallowing that though because the previous owner did service to this truck long before they were needed and one factor of why I bought it; he took care of it.

Just trying to think of all the possible excuses the dealer is going to try and throw at me for not honoring the Fed warranty . I called up three other dealers in our area with one from Cheyenne and they all confirmed the DPF does fall under the Fed 8/80 warranty but two did say there are numerous conditions outside that warranty that could cause damage resulting in DPF failure and voiding that warranty.

 

[mcavs]

Well, spent over an hour at the dealership presenting my case and countering every argument they tried to throw at me like, the 8/80 warranty in the book of my 2008 does not include the 2008 because the EPA guidelines for that year was 5/50 (that came from the district guy on the phone). My favorite was from the dingbat warranty lady at the dealership who tried to tell me the 8/80 did not pertain to diesels even though the warranty section 5.1 clearly states Cummins 6.7L Diesel and the 8/80 is under 5.1.c. They finally ended up at, I would need to take my argument to Dodge because they are just going by their warranty guidelines on the system for my VIN#, which they did show me and it did showed all of the warranty breakdowns with the Fed Extended Emission as 5/50 and not 8/80.

So, apparently the Fed Emission Warranty can be either 5/50 or 8/80 depending on the year of your truck. I plan to do some more digging on the EPA side to see when the 8/80 actually went into effect and if it included diesels.

Wallet is now $3100 lighter #@$%!

 

[sag2]

DPF's don't crack from being full, they crack from excessive heat. In reality the DPF (or CAT/NAC/DOC for that matter) are hardly ever at fault. Their failure is generally upstream and causes them to fail, so technically they are not defective and covered under any warranty anyway. Fortunately for most customers the dealers just blindly replace them because they have warranty coverage.

 

[mcavs]

sag2, I agree that there are most likely very few cats or DPFs that actually fail without some other contributing factor and is why I went in thinking I would most likely end up paying. With that said, they did change O2 & temp sensors but never did they say it was either one of those or excessive heat that caused it to crack. I guess THAT is my biggest issue; no explanation as to why/how it happened. If an owner doesn't now how these things happen then how are they suppose to know what to watch out for? I wouldn't have argued with them so bad except the so-called "Warranty Expert" came out and she tried to tell me the 8/80 in my 6.7L Cummins Diesel Warranty Booklet did not pertain to diesel vehicles and she has been "doing this for 14 years." She also said "There are other Federal regulations for diesels and this is not it." She is an idiot and when you have $3K on the line, I wasn't going to let this idiot get away with that explanation.

I had no issue paying the $3K because I have always believed if you can't afford the upkeep, you can't afford the vehicle. I just want a LOGICAL explanation as to why I am paying the $3K even if that explanation is, we don't know.

Oh well, at least I have a clean, empty DPF to start with. The 70/80/90% messages never did come on the 2+ years I have driven the truck so apparently my driving habits were not the issue and hopefully this one will last a lot longer based on that.

 

[DonFitzwater]

If the book shows 8/80...............I'd be calling Chrysler.

 

[mcavs]

If the book shows 8/80...............I'd be calling Chrysler.

I did before I went to the dealership and they had a hard time deciphering the book and resorted back to the VIN# and what their system showed was covered. Which is what the dealership did and when they put me on the phone with the district person he eventually did the same thing. They are pretty much like most of the dealership mechanics I have run up against lately, if "the system" shows it then it must be gospel, regardless of what common sense and logic tells you. And that remark comes from an ex-ASE mechanic; me. Even the EPA rules of what is covered are so vague pertaining to the DPF it allows Dodge and dealerships to pretty much cover or not at their discretion.

As sag2 stated, a cracked DPF is usually a result of something else and that something else for me would be out of warranty since it is over 5 years old.

 

[RustyJC]

I got an ECU with a cracked motherboard replaced under the 80K mile Federal emissions coverage on my wife's former 2000 Durango. The story on that is the mechanic who worked on the car lived across the street from us, and he knew which strings to pull to get the ECU covered under the emissions warranty as it was an integral part of the emissions system. I certainly think all the sensors, computers, etc. that control what goes into the DPF and ultimately comes out the tailpipe is just as much a part of an emissions system as that ECU was.

Rusty