2010 clutch help, will not disengage

[sag2]

All very good questions. They used OEM parts for everything, so it should all work. The pilot bearing is new and nothing else appears to be rubbing. The adapter plate is one unknown. Also thought about the transmission. When he changed the case could you assemble it so it shifts but does not release? There is more to this story, there always is.

 

[Bob V]

I would looking under the truck to see what the slave cyl and release fork are doing. Could be the wrong fork, fork installed wrong. Wrong mounting stud. Front bearing housing too long pushes the disk against the flywheel. all kinds of things.

 

[NIsaacs]

I noticed in post 8, the yellow springs in the picture appear to have rubbed on something, maybe the fork? Why? You would think the through out bearing would not allow that tho, so......what the heck? Like the bearing retainer making contact with the clutch disk, that indicates the clutch assembly is too close to the transmission. Is the factory clutch the same for a 5.9/6.7? I know the input shaft for the 5.9 (G56-AD) is different than the 6.7 (G56-AE), was it changed? This is getting crazy...

Nick

 

[GCroyle]

Bob,

Housing is closed, you'd need a snake camera and some place to put it. Doubtful it would get you any input. The fork has the ability to be put on flipped but the urban legend about that boo boo is that it causes noises more than a release issue. Fork orientation, part number lower left as viewed looking in.

Inspecting for invalid witness marks, always a great idea. I saw some paint flakes in one pic, looked maybe like the paint was just flaking off from being woken up but not sure if contact is possible. But that bearing OD mark indicates at some time it was over stroked somehow.

What about the pivot stud? Any left over shims under it? I bet the parts diagram shows no shims. If apart, worth looking for.

Ed, Chevy pilot bushing too tight? If it fit on the bench test, should have been OK installed, maybe unless the hammer that day made a errant impact on the face.

Sag2, Q. for the tech. Tech, will the trans slide cleanly up to and make that WHACK sound against the engine, or are you always having to pull it in with bolts the last (FILL IN DIMENSION HERE _____) inch? Also have you tried hand rotating the input shaft on the jack and tried shifting the trans by hand?

Where's the Popcorn icon now?

 

[RVTRKN]

My thoughts on this is to double check pilot bearing. Maybe it is too tight, or the needle bearings aren't rolling. I don't know if it would show evidence of it, but any resistance can lock on the shaft when turning. The case that was replaced might not be true causing the output shaft to sit cock eyed in the bearing. If there is a G56 handy to see if it is trans vrs the clutch vrs flywheel is what I'd do to help in elimination of each component.

A long long long time a friend of mine that was a mechanic for the AMF bowling machine was getting frustrated over the pin setting mechanism causing the pins to fall when setting them. Within a few minutes after a discussion and observation I found his issue. It turns out he rebuilt the cams that determines the movement of the pin cups. And he replaced the cam with a BRAND NEW CAM, need I say it was defective (not machined correctly) and had the right part number stamped on the cam. Which leads me to think about the case that was replaced.

 

[mwilson]

I will dip into this just a little. Every part number used for this repair needs to double checked by VIN. Something stupid is causing this.

I am also pondering previous abuse, my mind has wandered far enough to consider checking the end play of the crankshaft which is a stretch but sometimes worth considering.

 

[sag2]

I had even suggested cutting out the bottom of the bell housing of the old case. The case is already cracked, then you could stick one of the bearing retainers on it and bolt it up so it can be actuated. You would not have an input shaft, but you could at least see if the clutch releases.
All the parts should have been specified by VIN in Starparts.

 

[Bob V]

I would think you would know if the diaphragm wasn't moving with peddle feel.

 

[GCroyle]

Sag2,

If you wanted to try that see if you could include the plastic alignment tool in the disc and pilot just to keep the disc sorta on center. And setup a view hole in line with the edge of the disc. You would be looking for an air gap on each side of the facings and then if possible, insert a thin screwdriver and try to spin the disc, trans in neutral. Should spin, easily.

This system has been tried a bunch of times, attempted test drives? If yes, need to see casting surfaces for drag marks indicating lift issues.

Bob & Mike,

Yeah, we don't know what part numbers were installed, I think we saw a Dodge number somewhere and the VIN is a real player at the OES level, but seems like virtually the entire scope of parts discussed and installed outside of Cummins made, oops Geno's has a bunch of common ones there too come from the Automotive Aftermarket. That massive group of companies including the companies that make them for the OEM like in this case LuK. And how many times is AA repl by AB, AC, AD, AE, AF, crazy.

Bob, Reading the pedal feel. Can't tell you how mush this is not utilized in diagnostics. The most common comment on tech calls "When I mashes da pedal the clutch don't engage". Ponder that statement a bit.

I'm still waiting for the Paul Harvey encore.

Gary

 

[GCroyle]

Sag2,

Popcorn is getting cold, any updates?

Gary

 

[sag2]

What about the pivot stud? Any left over shims under it? I bet the parts diagram shows no shims. If apart, worth looking for.

OK, may be getting somewhere, no shims under the pivot. StarParts shows shims but are not serviced. He added three washers, too much and now binds. Going to pull a shim and try again.

 

[JHumphries]

OK, may be getting somewhere, no shims under the pivot. StarParts shows shims but are not serviced. He added three washers, too much and now binds. Going to pull a shim and try again.

That is some painful trial and error. I did a clutch in my last truck this past summer. It wasn't supper difficult, but I would not want to put the transmission back in and say "let's see if that works?"

 

[GCroyle]

That is some painful trial and error. I did a clutch in my last truck this past summer. It wasn't supper difficult, but I would not want to put the transmission back in and say "let's see if that works?"

Just a passing comment. I helped a "tech" with an NV5600 complaint of no release after installing a new clutch a couple of years ago, some details are lost to time but he R&R'd the NV5600 14+ times before a supplier said, hey why don't you call tech support. He did all of the urban legend, internet superstitions, modifications and never truly understood the interaction of the product. Just kept on trying what somebody somewhere did on a whatyamacallit that maybe fixed his issue that day.

I gave him a sequence of events, interaction of components, bench test procedure for an assembled FW, cover and disc and drum roll please how to test his hydro's independent of the clutch.

If any care to look, we put this video up about an air bubble in a Ranger. I know we're not working on Rangers but this short video shows, yes shows the air bubble and its measured reduction in plate lift. The size of the bubble was not measured, just a visible bubble that affected plate lift was all we needed.

Sag2 thanks for the update, hopefully conclusion is in sight. Any chance you can document the G56 ball stud to case relationship re: spacers as originally built?

 

[South Bend Clutch]

Good job Gary nice video

 

[GCroyle]

Peter,

Thanks. I know all of the clutch industry has struggled with air bubbles. Challenges abound.

Gary


And not to offend any tech, here's the top 3 replies when we have these discussions.

1. I know it bled, I used 3 quarts of DOT 3.
2. I know its bled, I've been doing this for XX years.
3. I know its bled I'm blank blank certified.

OK, now lets all start talking diagnostics instead of marking our turf.

 

[South Bend Clutch]

Yes we have!! We made something very similar to yours to test hydraulics under load for pressure and leaks.

Peter

 

[TFucili]

Just a passing comment. I helped a "tech" with an NV5600 complaint of no release after installing a new clutch a couple of years ago, some details are lost to time but he R&R'd the NV5600 14+ times before a supplier said, hey why don't you call tech support. He did all of the urban legend, internet superstitions, modifications and never truly understood the interaction of the product. Just kept on trying what somebody somewhere did on a whatyamacallit that maybe fixed his issue that day.

I gave him a sequence of events, interaction of components, bench test procedure for an assembled FW, cover and disc and drum roll please how to test his hydro's independent of the clutch.

If any care to look, we put this video up about an air bubble in a Ranger. I know we're not working on Rangers but this short video shows, yes shows the air bubble and its measured reduction in plate lift. The size of the bubble was not measured, just a visible bubble that affected plate lift was all we needed.

Sag2 thanks for the update, hopefully conclusion is in sight. Any chance you can document the G56 ball stud to case relationship re: spacers as originally built?

That's a great video. I completely agree that it is a tech's job to have an understanding of the system he is working on. I won't get on my soap box regarding "technicians" and "parts changers". I will say, however, that some manufacturers shop manuals are pretty sad. When I was a Deere dealer, their repair manuals were fantastic, and always gave a bit of theory of operation of the system in question, components involved, and their interaction. The manuals were truly educational. Fast forward to today, and I am in the powersports business, most of the manuals are basically worthless, except for torque tables.

 

[NIsaacs]

The customer says install stock dual mass back in the truck. They install it and the front bearing retainer contacts the clutch disc when they start it and turns the end of the tin retainer blue. I told them to cut 1/4 off the retainer since they said the throw out bearing has plenty to ride on. They did and now no contact or noise, but the clutch will not release enough to shift it.

The above issue still bothers me........

I don't think it is a hydraulic or fork issue ( at least until the washers were installed) they have tried two sets already and no go.

Nick

 

[DonFitzwater]

Thanks to you clutch "support guys" for sticking with this. We sure appreciate your help!

 

[GCroyle]

Thanks to you clutch "support guys" for sticking with this. We sure appreciate your help!

Fitz,

I'm sitting here with popcorn and waiting to crack the next beer when Sag2 comes up with the Paul Harvey moment. And its really fun to not have a dog in the fight, parts have Chrys numbers on them!

A recent tech call that was a head slapper.

Tiburon V6, DMF, with pull type. Let me politely say, challanging and yes I have installed one.

First install. No release. I go over every possible known cause and effect, nothing matches.
Second install. Well, we found the tech installed the disc backwards and that jammed everything up, thanks for your help. I naturally assumed (oops) that they got a new kit. But guess what, it still doesn't release. What did you guys do this time? Well, we flipped that disc over and it still will not release. I cleared my head and clearly asked, You re-installed the disc that WAS in backwards? Why, yes we did.
THIRD install. New kit, did it correctly.

Now, the Paul Harvey portion.

The disc is a rigid thin disc and it can be sorta confusing as you build it up, cause right looks wrong. With the disc in bassackwards the FW side facings are not touching the casting so as you bolt the cover down, the drive plate of the disc gets bent and actually deforms and cracks, it gets dished. Now, reinstall flipped to correct and the disc is distorted and cant freely spin in the gap. It actually cracks the drive plate.

Here's the end result, cracks and bent disc. THREE installs, didn't make a penny on that one.