Watch Out For This! Dangerous!

[RustyJC]

I explained earlier why the push button systems are designed NOT to shut the vehicle off with a single button push when the vehicle is in gear, so there's some validity to the design. It's the same reason that the key cannot be turned to the steering lock position with the vehicle in gear - if a kid turns the key off while the vehicle is being driven, it prevents the steering from being locked and the driver from totally losing steering control, even though it does shut off the engine along with power steering and (ultimately, when the vacuum reservoir or, in the case of our trucks, the hydraulic accumulator is depleted) power braking assist, which could also be considered as a design fault.

In the case of my wife's Toyota with the push button start, there's a workaround to shut the vehicle off in gear with the push button. I can't remember now if it's multiple pushes of the button or holding it down until the engine shuts off, but it came to light during the Toyota "stuck throttle" fiasco. (I still haven't figured out why, even if the throttle DID stick, they couldn't push the gear selector lever to "N".)

So, if you do a redesign as you suggest to shut the engine off with a single button push under ANY circumstance (in gear or not), what happens when the kid hits the button as Mom is driving through some mountain switchbacks and suddenly loses the power steering assist when the engine dies? Which is the worse situation? For the engineer, it's a "Damned if you do; damned if you don't" problem.

Rusty

 

[Ram4Sam]

Thanks for the clarification, this is worse than I thought!

I was thinking more alone the lines of: You can leave some of the newer stop/start button vehicles key in hand (or in pocket never put in anything) - running or not. Assume engine has shut off with button press and being in hurry don't notice it didn't.

He attempted to shut off the engine and it didn't perform as expected due to faulty design. Faulty design like the relief valve indicator that melted down Three Mile Island by indicating commanded closed position rather than actual stuck wide open position. This compounds the 'didn't go into park' problem by having the engine running in reverse rather than the expected "park" and engine off. This "defect" applies power to reverse reducing time to solve the bad situation rather than engine off just rolling in reverse.

Old designs won't let you have the key back if it isn't in "park" and allow the engine to shut off in any gear or not.

I will be the first to clearly explain that it's just plain Fing stupid to override by design the operator's intent to shut down the engine at any time. I have had several runaway conditions with a GM Lemon that would go flat out light up the rear tires and drag the front tires backwards requiring shifting to neutral or turning off the key. Taking away this ability to stop the engine biased on experience like this is taking away ability for people who can solve a problem like this to the disadvantage of safety.

No, not warranty. This is a design problem and the unintended side effect is removal of the ability to shut down the engine. These are are the worst problems to get fixed.

That is so weak.......it didn't perform as he expected because he probably didn't read the owners manual and his expectations were wrong.

Sam

 

[Ram4Sam]

I explained earlier why the push button systems are designed NOT to shut the vehicle off with a single button push when the vehicle is in gear, so there's some validity to the design. It's the same reason that the key cannot be turned to the steering lock position with the vehicle in gear - if a kid turns the key off while the vehicle is being driven, it prevents the steering from being locked and the driver from totally losing steering control, even though it does shut off the engine along with power steering and (ultimately, when the vacuum reservoir or, in the case of our trucks, the hydraulic accumulator is depleted) power braking assist, which could also be considered as a design fault.

In the case of my wife's Toyota with the push button start, there's a workaround to shut the vehicle off in gear with the push button. I can't remember now if it's multiple pushes of the button or holding it down until the engine shuts off, but it came to light during the Toyota "stuck throttle" fiasco. (I still haven't figured out why, even if the throttle DID stick, they couldn't push the gear selector lever to "N".)

So, if you do a redesign as you suggest to shut the engine off with a single button push under ANY circumstance (in gear or not), what happens when the kid hits the button as Mom is driving through some mountain switchbacks and suddenly loses the power steering assist when the engine dies? Which is the worse situation? For the engineer, it's a "Damned if you do; damned if you don't" problem.

Rusty

Actually,I might have read in one of the manuals from my 2014 that a button push of 3 to 5 seconds or something like that will shut down the engine if not in Park. I never tried it though.......

Sam

 

[SnoKing]

Elvis has left the building, on wait the EVIC said the "key FOB has left the vehicle" and I am still in gear, so I am going to roll away!

This push button is new to me, so I am trying to be very deliberate with it's use. SNOKING

 

[Tuesdak]

That is so weak.......it didn't perform as he expected because he probably didn't read the owners manual and his expectations were wrong.

Sam

I turn the key and engine shuts off period. It's been this way for decades. (Some with a stop to prevent steering wheel lock up. Most modern vehicles don't even have a steering wheel lock anymore.) Sadly people even have trouble with that giving some of the newsworthy runaway vehicle stories over the years.

Now we have a new button that they have to double think of kids pressing a button. Maybe it's just a bad idea from the word go to have a start/stop button? As an aside most industrial machinery has a separate start and stop button including a 3rd emergency stop button. A button labeled "Start" to shut things down has been a joke with Windows for 20 years. (Click Start, Shutdown...)

Sure the best solution to runaway is neutral and the engine's last life will power the steering and brakes. Hopefully the governor works or the engine blowing up from overspeed doesn't take out brake lines or the MC. Oh wait even the shifter is all electronic now on some vehicles... So in the case of the electronics going FUBAR it's not going to listen to you leaning on the off button or read and act on electronic shift commands. One of my favorite electronics failure is Tin Whiskers with the Goverment and Toyota skating around the issue even when shown defective parts causing runaways due to tin whiskers.

The actual NASA PDF is more informative than the Wiki that has been sanitized for your protection. http://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/reference/tech_papers/2011-NASA-GSFC-whisker-failure-app-sensor.pdf

From floor mats, old fashioned throttle cables jamming, and other reasons vehicles go wide open it's a fair question to ask people if they have a plan to deal with this situation. Much easier to remember shift to neutral or key off rather than figure it out under the stress and panic of the situation.

Regardless we are discussing the secondary problem of the engine refusing to shut off in gear that has compounded the first few problems of shifter design and Operator interaction issues

 

[grabinov]

Mine is showing P on the shift indicator but the message "Vehicle not in park" is listed on the EVIC. Sometimes it's NOT in park, even though the dash says it is. The mention of the E brake is simple but effective.

Whatever you wanna call Dogpatch, you can call me as well. I "put the truck in Park", push the button, the engine doesn't shut off, and THEN I notice the message DonFitzwater reported - Vehicle Not in Park, but the indicator shows that it is. In my case, it is not in Reverse either. The transmission is in Park. the indictor says "Park", but the sensor which feeds the EVIC (and which tells the truck its's ok to shut off) obviously doesn't know that's the case. Push up on the shift lever and the message goes away. Then the truck will shut off. There's a sensor somewhere out of adjustment.

 

[Dogpatch]

This is not true, the truck will not shut off if it is not in park. The OP even confirmed this with his own test. No offense to Dogpatch, but it sounds like he just got careless, thought he was in park, by his own admission, the engine didn't stop, and won't, got in a hurry and got out of the truck with it still running, still in reverse, with no emergency brake. Fortunately, he wasn't hurt........Where is the defect?

Firstly, I'm only assuming it wasn't in park as it continued to move backwards. As I mentioned, I couldn't see the gear selector due to the position of my tilt steering. Who knows, maybe it said park but still in reverse gear! I tested the start/stop button while in reverse because I simply couldn't imagine it being in park and moving. I even pushed it several times in rapid succession in case it was a child proof fail safe action.
I haven't discounted that there still may be a defect!

I will admit, I was in a bit of a rush that day to fuel up and get to my next appointment, however, I don't see myself as a "careless" person. I know how to put a vehicle in park, shut it off and exit!
I knew when I posted this that there would be some misbelievers, because if I read it never having experienced it, I'd probably think the same.

Needless to say, Now I look at the gear selector, push the stop button and wait for the truck to shut off before I exit. I will continue to monitor this till I'm assured it wasn't the truck!

 

[Ram4Sam]

Firstly, I'm only assuming it wasn't in park as it continued to move backwards. As I mentioned, I couldn't see the gear selector due to the position of my tilt steering. Who knows, maybe it said park but still in reverse gear! I tested the start/stop button while in reverse because I simply couldn't imagine it being in park and moving. I even pushed it several times in rapid succession in case it was a child proof fail safe action.
I haven't discounted that there still may be a defect!

I will admit, I was in a bit of a rush that day to fuel up and get to my next appointment, however, I don't see myself as a "careless" person. I know how to put a vehicle in park, shut it off and exit!
I knew when I posted this that there would be some misbelievers, because if I read it never having experienced it, I'd probably think the same.

Needless to say, Now I look at the gear selector, push the stop button and wait for the truck to shut off before I exit. I will continue to monitor this till I'm assured it wasn't the truck!

Dogpatch, no disrepect intended We have all done stuff like this.....I have several scars to prove mine! Just a series of small events that added up to a bigger one. You weren't hurt which is main thing.

Sam

 

[Badunit]

I have noticed with mine that the shifter often doesn't feel like it dropped all the way in when I slide it over to Park. Sometimes it results in the "not in Park" message when I try to shut the engine off. I have gotten into the habit of pushing the lever forward after shifting to park just to make sure it is "locked in".

 

[brods]

Thanks for the clarification, this is worse than I thought!

I was thinking more alone the lines of: You can leave some of the newer stop/start button vehicles key in hand (or in pocket never put in anything) - running or not. Assume engine has shut off with button press and being in hurry don't notice it didn't.

He attempted to shut off the engine and it didn't perform as expected due to faulty design. Faulty design like the relief valve indicator that melted down Three Mile Island by indicating commanded closed position rather than actual stuck wide open position. This compounds the 'didn't go into park' problem by having the engine running in reverse rather than the expected "park" and engine off. This "defect" applies power to reverse reducing time to solve the bad situation rather than engine off just rolling in reverse.

Old designs won't let you have the key back if it isn't in "park" and allow the engine to shut off in any gear or not.

I will be the first to clearly explain that it's just plain Fing stupid to override by design the operator's intent to shut down the engine at any time. I have had several runaway conditions with a GM Lemon that would go flat out light up the rear tires and drag the front tires backwards requiring shifting to neutral or turning off the key. Taking away this ability to stop the engine biased on experience like this is taking away ability for people who can solve a problem like this to the disadvantage of safety.

No, not warranty. This is a design problem and the unintended side effect is removal of the ability to shut down the engine. These are are the worst problems to get fixed.

Right on JD. No longer is the driver in control. He merely sends a request to the computers and the car does what some software programmer thought was best. If the programmer didn't anticipate your unique situation then his "best" solution may be the worst for you.

Actually,I might have read in one of the manuals from my 2014 that a button push of 3 to 5 seconds or something like that will shut down the engine if not in Park. I never tried it though.......
Sam

So when the s**t is hitting the fan the operator has to sit calmly for 3-5 seconds holding a button down? What a wonderful idea! It forces the panic stricken driver to settle down and get a grip while everything is going to hell around him. Sweeeeeet! (massive sarcasm if it wasn't obvious)

I explained earlier why the push button systems are designed NOT to shut the vehicle off with a single button push when the vehicle is in gear, so there's some validity to the design. It's the same reason that the key cannot be turned to the steering lock position with the vehicle in gear - if a kid turns the key off while the vehicle is being driven, it prevents the steering from being locked and the driver from totally losing steering control, even though it does shut off the engine along with power steering and (ultimately, when the vacuum reservoir or, in the case of our trucks, the hydraulic accumulator is depleted) power braking assist, which could also be considered as a design fault.

In the case of my wife's Toyota with the push button start, there's a workaround to shut the vehicle off in gear with the push button. I can't remember now if it's multiple pushes of the button or holding it down until the engine shuts off, but it came to light during the Toyota "stuck throttle" fiasco. (I still haven't figured out why, even if the throttle DID stick, they couldn't push the gear selector lever to "N".)

So, if you do a redesign as you suggest to shut the engine off with a single button push under ANY circumstance (in gear or not), what happens when the kid hits the button as Mom is driving through some mountain switchbacks and suddenly loses the power steering assist when the engine dies? Which is the worse situation? For the engineer, it's a "Damned if you do; damned if you don't" problem.

Rusty

Not entirely accurate. The solution it to abandon the problematic "one button does all" approach, not to throw bandaids at it in an attempt to fix a flawed design.
Way back when, I was a passenger in a hot rod when the throttle stuck wide open. I might not be here today if the driver had to hold a button down for 5 seconds to kill the motor.

One thing I just don't understand about all these "not in park" issues is the aversion to using the parking brake. I use mine every time I get out of the truck. It will hold the truck while in reverse with the engine idling.

 

[RustyJC]

Not entirely accurate. The solution it to abandon the problematic "one button does all" approach, not to throw bandaids at it in an attempt to fix a flawed design.

My statement assumed that the start/stop button application has already been mandated and reflected the choices faced by the engineer at that point. It's accurate for that presupposition.

Rusty

 

[SnoKing]

My statement assumed that the start/stop button application has already been mandated and reflected the choices faced by the engineer at that point. It's accurate for that presupposition.

Rusty

Just about all high end rigs have migrated to the push button start. I like it!! Made a little belt pouch for the FOB. SNOKING

 

[Dogpatch]

I like the push button start. I'm obviously more cautious with using it after my "incident"!

One thing I don't like (actually my wife doesn't like) is if I leave the truck running with her in it to go grab something from the house or store, the truck bings and bongs like crazy till I get back into the truck with my fob in my pocket. Just something to get used to.

The other thing to get used to is not leaving the fob in another pair of pants and going to leave and the truck won't start. Duh!

 

[Cummins12V98]

"Made a little belt pouch for the FOB"

I think I will stick with my pocket