Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Crank seal question

[Man_of_Constant_Sorrow]

Hi folks, I have been doing (slowly) the KDP repair on my 95 Dodge with about 180K on it. I'm ready to turn my attention to the crank seal. The seal kit I got from the local Cummins dealer is a Victor Reinz, (also marked Mahle 48383, made you-know-where). It includes a repair sleeve. I'm wondering if I should use it, and if so, how to install it, or if I should just put the seal at a different depth than the old one (and if so, how, given that the seal install tool is used to set the depth.) I can see, but not feel, wear on the crank. Here are a couple pictures. What do you think?

 

[BigPapa]

I would suggest using Cummins 3802820 kit that comes with a sleeve. There is a tool available to pull the sleeve onto the crank using bolts that screw into the damper bolt holes and a driver for the seal. I'll see if I can get part numbers on them tomorrow.

 

[DVolk]

I've seen what looks like a fool proof tool on You tube that basicly pulls the sleave and seal on were to get one at ???

 

[BLNRAY]

cummins repair sleeve and seal requires a tool to install the sleeve properly and it has an oversixed seal to go with it,national and felpro make a repair sleeve that comes with the install tool and uses a standard seal,much cheaper and easier.

 

[Man_of_Constant_Sorrow]

The kit I have does have a repair sleeve. So first, I take it that I should use it, based on you guys' responses to the pictures. Nobody is advising just changing the seal position.
Ok, Well, the kit has an install tool for the seal itself, and as I'm looking at it, maybe it could sort of be used for the sleeve too, if something were placed across it and one was careful to drive it evenly. But does the sleeve simply end up flush with the end of the crank, or does it get driven further in?
Also, the repair sleeve has an internal bevel on on end -- is this end supposed to go toward the engine or towards the radiator? Not sure what its function is.
It does seem a little peculiar to me that the seal itself will work on either the crank diameter or the crank + sleeve diameter -- the sleeve adds about 52 thousandths of an inch per my caliper.

 

[BigPapa]

I agree I don't see how the same seal would work with or without the sleeve. The Cummins seals are different.

The part number for the sleeve installer is 3824500:

and the seal driver is 3824498:

I would imagine that if you're careful the sleeve could be installed using a good flat piece of hardwood and a mallet. Pine will probably be too soft and allow the sleeve to cock.

 

[chipster]

I just use a piece of wood to start the sleeve, about 1/8" then use the damper with the stock bolts to push the sleeve all the way on. a lot cheaper than the "tool". just remember to turn each bolt one turn at a time to keep the damper straight. I like the Cummins sleeve/ seal kit because the sleeve is thicker ( less chance of bending or bulging the sleeve)

 

[Man_of_Constant_Sorrow]

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. Chipster, if you use the damper, does the sleeve end up flush with the end of the crank? I've gotten some notion that it should sit in a little further. Maybe it doesn't matter?
I am thinking drawing the sleeve in slowly with bolts would be much better for both the sleeve and the crank than banging on it would be, so I'll probably try to use the damper.
Does anyone know which way the beveled end should face?

 

[DVolk]

I have used a PVC pipe to install the sleeve in the past

 

[chipster]

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. Chipster, if you use the damper, does the sleeve end up flush with the end of the crank? I've gotten some notion that it should sit in a little further. Maybe it doesn't matter?
I am thinking drawing the sleeve in slowly with bolts would be much better for both the sleeve and the crank than banging on it would be, so I'll probably try to use the damper.
Does anyone know which way the beveled end should face?

yup, if you use the damper, the sleeve ends up flush with the end of the crankshaft. no need to go farther. the front seal should come with an installing tool (looks like a sheet metal flange) to seat the seal the correct depth in the cover. I`ve used hammers with sleeve drivers to install the sleeve, and prefer the damper to push the sleeve on, especially when doing the install with the engine in the truck. the straight open end of the sleeve goes on the crank first. all this info applies to the Cummins sleeve kit. I can`t verify if it will work with thinner after market sleeves.

 

[GAmes]

I'm currently running a double seal as an experiment, and so far it has been flawless. Off the top of my head I can't give you numbers but if anyone cares I can look in my records if I didn't leave them in the shop when I left. Installing two seals into the front cover was easier than installing a wear ring using the damper, and cost less than the Cummins kit too.

 

[Man_of_Constant_Sorrow]

Thanks for the info. Here are a couple pics of the results. Using the damper method, I found it a little difficult to get the damper bolts started. A set of longer bolts would make it easier, as would some appropriately sized dowels to help line up the damper with the bolt holes. I tried to tap the sleeve in a little with the damper itself, and I'm sure it started a little cocked, because then I could get three of the four bolts started. But it all straightened out pretty quickly. Part way in, I removed the damper just to make sure everything looked ok, then resumed. I used two ratchets simultaneously on opposite bolts, turning both 90 degrees at a time. After a few turns, I'd go to the other pair of bolts, which would be loose. Not rocket science, just took it slow and evenly.

So how does this sleeve look compared to the Cummins sleeve, especially regarding how far it's on the crank? It may look like it should sit back further towards the gear, but it's pretty close to the "key" of the drive gear -- see last picture. Any concerns? I hope to install the seal in the timing cover tonight at the standard depth using the tool supplied in the kit.

 

[DVolk]

Looks fine to me

 

[Man_of_Constant_Sorrow]

Well, I cleaned up the wear sleeve and installed the seal in the timing cover, and installed the cover. I followed some advice elsewhere in this forum to start the plastic installation sleeve (from the back side) a little ways through the seal, so it was about flush with the damper end of the the seal bore. This was probably not best for the situation I have, with a wear sleeve installed on the crank. The seal reached the end of the installation sleeve well before it reached its final position on the crank, and went in the rest of the way without benefit of the installation sleeve. If it leaks when I start it, I'll know why ...

Also, how important is this "dust shield"? The one in the kit is sized for the bare crank, and didn't go on the wear sleeve. I tried using the installation sleeve, but that did not help, so I eventually resorted to prying with a very small screwdriver. I got it to go on, and then I pushed it in to probably where it should be, using the wide end of the installation sleeve to push it. But the screwdriver and the stretch to fit over the wear sleeve did chew it up a bit. There was no dust shield with the old seal, unless maybe it had disintegrated long ago.

 

[BigPapa]

I'm a bit confused, and concerned, with some of your descriptions and comments. Could you post up pics of the plastic installation sleeve, dust seal, and maybe even the package your kit was in?

The plastic installation sleeve should be inserted into the inside of the seal until it stops, then, when you put it over the nose of the crank and push the cover in place, the sleeve will stay on the crank nose. Than you just throw it away.

I've never heard of a dust seal so I'm curious as to what that is and what it looks like.

I also didn't notice you mention putting any kind of sealer on the inside of the repair sleeve. I've used a LocTite product that I can't remember the number on right now and I've also used Ultra Gray, both with no issues.

 

[Man_of_Constant_Sorrow]

It is a bit confusing trying to describe all these things. Let me take one piece at a time:

I have mostly been following the TST KDP instructions, though I did not buy their kit. I bought the Victor Reinz kit, aka Mahle 48383, from the "local" Cummins parts dealer, mostly because he had it in stock that day. The TST instructions are available in a pdf off their page, currently http://www.tstproducts.com/dowelpinrepairkitfor94-98.aspx In particular, they have you install the seal from the inside of the timing cover -- you remove the semi-transparent plastic installation sleeve from the seal, put the seal installing tool that comes with the kit into the bore of the cover from the front (outside), flip the cover over, and install the seal from the back (inside). Then you re-insert the plastic installation sleeve, from the inside -- perhaps, as you say, BigPapa, till it stops.

Ok, but some folks have still had some difficulties with this method, and after reading a few articles on this forum, I thought I'd follow the procedure described by Jo Mc starting in reply 41 of this thread: https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/252740-crank-seal-install/page3
He basically recommends driving the plastic installation sleeve a little further (outward). I either drove it too far, or it was just not the best idea given that I had put a wear sleeve on the crank. I had the cover all gooped up with Permatex Ultra Gray and trying to hold it right and push it onto the crank, and because of the wear sleeve, the narrower part of the installation sleeve wouldn't press onto the crank, only the wider part. So that left a bit of crank to go ... the seal rode off the inner end of the installation sleeve and up the crank into position -- I can only hope that didn't make the inside seal lip curl or flatten.

Regarding the dust shield, some kits have them. TST's instructions mention them, and they include this picture, which shows the dust shield pressed up against the seal. Apparently, some kits don't have them, and some folks have never seen / used them, so I'm guessing mine, a little mangled as it is, will be just fine.

Finally, you are correct, I did not use any kind of sealant between the crank and wear sleeve. I guess I thought the fit is so tight it wouldn't need any sealant, but I do see that some folks suggest using Loctite Blue. So ... perhaps if I have a leak when I start this up, I WON'T know why ... seal or sleeve? At this point, I figure I'll put everything together and check for leaks. If I have to redo it, it won't be that aggravating ... I hope. There is definitely an art and a learning curve to all these things.

 

[KOG]

Dust shield? Is that a slinger ring to keep to much oil away from the seal? I've put wear sleeves onto a couple of Chevy 350s and other machinery shafts, but not the Cummins. Those were all very thin and could use the stock seals, but were tricky to get on straight because they were so thin.The Chevy ones came with a slotted ring on the driving side that gets peeled off after the sleeve is driven on, unlike the Cummins deal.

 

[Man_of_Constant_Sorrow]

Not a slinger, the dust shield is outboard of the crank seal. It appears it will rotate with the crank, and its function is to keep crud from getting into the seal. The wear sleeve is about .052 thick, and the crank seal fit over it ok, but the dust shield didn't -- maybe it would have with some special tool.

I am wondering if I have to put everything back together to check for leaks. Suppose I install just the damper and engine speed sensor, but leave the fan, shroud, serpentine belt, etc., off. And OF COURSE I would remove the barring tool I would only be idling the truck, not driving it, but no alternator or water pump. Would a leak show up pretty quickly under these conditions? Safe and effective?

 

[DVolk]

Dust shield never heard of that ,do you mean the so-called sheet metal install tool ???

 

[Man_of_Constant_Sorrow]

No ... granted the sheet metal install tool does look a bit like a wheel bearing dust shield -- but I'm not confused and not making this up -- it's that black ring on the picture I posted above. They posed that picture a little too well, making it look like the black part is glued to the seal case, but it's not. It's a separate part in the kit. Goes outboard of the seal, between the seal and the damper, but right up against the seal. Yet it is clearly going to spin with the crank, not stay fixed like the seal. As I say, it is encouraging to me that many of you experienced Cummins folks have never seen one, because that means it's a non-essential part. And there wasn't one on my truck before either.