Well, my luck just ran out...time for new injectors

[Crunch]

I was under the impression that I had a leak in one of the fuel lines. I pressure washed the underside of the truck, checked the lock nut on the fuel module, etc and found nothing. But...the oil dipstick was reading high. I had just changed the oil about 1500 miles ago, so I new it couldn't be too full of oil. I crawled under the truck and popped the oil drain plug and sure enough, instead of oil coming down like syrup I got ye old Texas gusher: Fuel in the crankcase.

Good news is that the truck was still running perfectly smooth before this, and fuel economy was still excellent. No smoke, no rough running and nothing to indicate a problem. And thanks to the information provided on this forum I'm pretty sure that the problem is a cracked injector. I've already made plans to have the injectors replaced at a trusted shop, so I guess that's what I'm getting for Christmas. Ho, ho ho!

And I can't say enough about how much valuable information this forum has provided over the years. It's bee a lifesaver on many occasions. Hat's off to everyone here!

 

[p-Bar]

Good job. Remember all injectors are not created equal. Watch what you buy , investigate them first . Don't go by what the shop says . My recommendation are BBI's . All new

 

[Crunch]

Good job. Remember all injectors are not created equal. Watch what you buy , investigate them first . Don't go by what the shop says . My recommendation are BBI's . All new

Fortunately it's a shop I trust, called Texas Diesel Power. The local Cummins Southern Plains shop recommends them. About a year ago they re-seated the connector tubes, and did it at a reasonable cost. The injectors they use are Bosch, re-manufactured by Bosch. I have been very pleased with the OEM injectors, so I'm not planning on changing them or adding HP. I was planning on having the injectors replaced in the first quarter of next year anyway, but the clock ran out and it happens now. 342K miles on them, so I can't complain by any measure. An interesting side note: This shop is right down the road from the Power Service plant, and Power Service has a promo rack in the shop's lobby of single serving bottles of Diesel Kleen for customers to take. It's like diesel swag.

 

[jghflys]

How many miles on the injectors?

 

[DonFitzwater]

How many miles on the injectors?

342k

 

[Ozymandias]

Do we really have cracked injectors on a stock truck? That's new to me.

 

[Crunch]

Do we really have cracked injectors on a stock truck? That's new to me.

What else would allow fuel into the crankcase, but no smoke, doesn't run rough and still gets good fuel economy? When I had the connector tubes re-seated there was one injector that they couldn't get the connector to re-seat properly, and it had to be removed and put back in before the connector would seat. I'm thinking that is probably the same injector that is cracked. It's going in the shop tomorrow or Friday, so I'll find out soon enough...though probably after Christmas.

 

[cerberusiam]

What else would allow fuel into the crankcase

CP-3 seal.

Just in case you have not been following injector threads remans are not the best choice, Bosch or not.

If you really want to be informed, ask how much they are going to charge you for a Bosch REMAN as opposed to new. Then, see how much $$ you can purchase a NEW set of updated Bosch injectors form a high volume dealer and compare.

If you want a better reman then I would see what BBI has to offer.

 

[Crunch]

CP-3 seal.

Just in case you have not been following injector threads remans are not the best choice, Bosch or not.

If you really want to be informed, ask how much they are going to charge you for a Bosch REMAN as opposed to new. Then, see how much $$ you can purchase a NEW set of updated Bosch injectors form a high volume dealer and compare.

If you want a better reman then I would see what BBI has to offer.

I'm certainly hoping it's not the CP-3 seal. But I would also think that has a lower probability of failing than the injectors. To me that would be like the water pump gasket failing before the water pump itself. The truck is going in today and I will definitely mention that possibility, though I would hope that is something they would check for anyway. Either way, at 342K miles if the valve cover comes off and the shop is going to bench test the injectors, they are going to be replaced--even if only one is bad.

As for the Bosch remans, I did ask about the cost difference because if the if the cost of new injectors was reasonable I'd be down for the struggle, and was told they are significantly higher. Didn't ask about BBI injectors. I was initially interested in the Bosch remans because A) Bosch is the OEM injector, and B) The Bosch are the injectors recommended by Geno's Garage, which cautions against buying injectors from "Ivan the Injector Dude" (as per their web page).

Thanks for all the help on this.

 

[Ozymandias]

If you want to keep the truck then go bbi, you won't be disappointed.
They are worth their weight in Gold. No kidding.

 

[cerberusiam]

Water pump gasket doesn't have a spinning shaft inside of that is in constant motion when the engine is running. Comparing it to the water pump shaft seal is more appropriate and we all know how that turns out. There are 2 kinds of shaft seals, those that HAVE failed and those that WILL fail. Injectors are the most likely but other areas must be checked at that mileage.

Your truck and your money but don't expect said shop to do you any favors, you need to be educated enough to see that. So what is the significant difference? Just how much are they going to charge you per reman injector? If they are going to respond with generalities or try to tell there are no new injectors, be suspicious, be VERY suspicious.

I, you or any one else included, can walk into any authorized Bosch dealer and buy a CR reman injector for $380 plus core. I can also go to a 1/2 dozen high volume online retailers and buy a NEW injector for very close to that reman price, or, at times LESS than Bosch reman price. If you do not have to worry about emissions you can buy a better injector the same way in NEW Bosch production run units.

Your choice to participate or just turn it over to them.

 

[TCDiesel]

If the Injectors are the problem its most likely relate to the solenoid O-ring failure its easily checked.

OP, buy Now, Big price increase coming Jan 1 2019 if it is Injectors, and if you want to know how to Check for yourself Just PM me.

You could have CP3- seal Problem in combination with Injectors. The Mileage your at

Companies claiming New Bosch (Virgin)are better than Bosch Remans either are not informed or have never sold them side by side, TC Diesel (I) did for 4 years Virgins & Remans I jumped back to Bosch Remans ( Only) Because it was IMO taking additional $$$ for the same product. 16 Years and the mortality rate is no different.

 

[cerberusiam]

Companies claiming New Bosch (Virgin)are better than Bosch Remans either are not informed or have never sold them side by side

Oh come on now!!! You are undeniably the King Of Outrageous Statements, but, that is taking things just a little bit to far. Like, out in the really tall weeds. LOL!!

Pray tell, just HOW is an injector body that has been subjected to a constant 12-23k psi for a unknown number of hours with unknown fuel quality, AND, a reman process that can NOT replace every single potential failure point in a CR injector, AND, reman specs for tolerances that are degrees LESS than new, be considered BETTER in ANY meaningful way than a NEW virgin injector???

I can tell you one way the numbers are fudged to make this look like a reality, an injector is never EVER warrantied for ANY reason. Warranty denied for damage caused by neglect or bad fuel or bad install or etc, does not count. Injectors that are 6-10% out spec are considered good if they do not melt the engine down are warranty denied because there is no way any shop can bench test it and make a determination. It sprays the correct amount of fuel at an idle therefore it is good no matter the actual installed performance.

It is BS statistics manipulation, pure and simple.

 

[Crunch]

Your truck and your money but don't expect said shop to do you any favors, you need to be educated enough to see that. So what is the significant difference? Just how much are they going to charge you per reman injector? If they are going to respond with generalities or try to tell there are no new injectors, be suspicious, be VERY suspicious.

OP, buy Now, Big price increase coming Jan 1 2019 if it is Injectors, and if you want to know how to Check for yourself Just PM me.

You could have CP3- seal Problem in combination with Injectors. The Mileage your at

This thread has lead to a lot of serious consideration on my part. After much thought considering all the possibilities, budget, etc I put my truck in the shop yesterday. At 342K miles the injectors need to be replaced no matter what is the root problem. Testing or replacing them myself is not something I would be comfortable doing, short of about five rounds of assisting someone experienced doing the job. But the chance that it could also be the CP3 is something I can't ignore. For that reason I decided to go with Bosch remans, and am prepared to also have the CP3 pump replaced if needed. In deciding that, and in conjunction with Cerberusiam's comment about a shop saying that new injectors could be hard to find--they did actually say that it might be difficult to find them, I opted to have the work done at the local Cummins Southern Plains shop, which is only about two miles from my house. I'm banking on them being competent. The tow to the original shop (which I do trust, based on recommendations and my previous experience) would have cost well over $200. The tow to the Cummins Southern Plains shop was free via AAA. They also warranty injectors--both new and remanufactured for 1 year or 100K miles. Based on my previous yearly mileage I will be happy if they last close to 5 years, which is probably about when the rest of the truck will not be worth maintaining. At that point I will have budgeted for a new truck, and am hoping the diesel engines by then will be as reliable as the 5.9 engine. But I'm not looking forward to dealing with a catalytic converter, particulate filter and DEF.

 

[TCDiesel]

Oh come on now!!! You are undeniably the King Of Outrageous Statements, but, that is taking things just a little bit to far. Like, out in the really tall weeds. LOL!!

Pray tell, just HOW is an injector body that has been subjected to a constant 12-23k psi for a unknown number of hours with unknown fuel quality, AND, a reman process that can NOT replace every single potential failure point in a CR injector, AND, reman specs for tolerances that are degrees LESS than new, be considered BETTER in ANY meaningful way than a NEW virgin injector???

I can tell you one way the numbers are fudged to make this look like a reality, an injector is never EVER warrantied for ANY reason. Warranty denied for damage caused by neglect or bad fuel or bad install or etc, does not count. Injectors that are 6-10% out spec are considered good if they do not melt the engine down are warranty denied because there is no way any shop can bench test it and make a determination. It sprays the correct amount of fuel at an idle therefore it is good no matter the actual installed performance.

It is BS statistics manipulation, pure and simple.

The BS meter is peg on This Post Cerb, I generally agree with Cerb.

I took some Injector bodies to NTM and had them do every Test known to man, on strength and Material. One of the most notable comments was raw material unknown. I will get to this comment and add to it.

 

[Crunch]

Truck's back, so here's the update. The truck went into the local Cummins shop on 12/20, 2 days before I left town. They called on 12/26 to tell me that the truck was ready. I got back into town on 12/27 and picked up the truck the next day. The cost was $4k. So far, everything seems to be taken care of. Since then I've put just under 200 miles on the truck, and the oil level is holding steady. At this point I am fairly confident that the problem was the injectors, and not the CP3. One unexpected, but nice upside is that they steam cleaned the engine and engine compartment. The only downside to the steam cleaning is that all my engine data on the sticker came off the valve cover in the process. They replaced the oil with Valvoline Premium Blue. I've always been a Rotella guy, but I'm not complaining. My only consideration is because of the whole fuel in the oil thing I am debating whether to go 500 miles or 1000 miles before changing it. What follows below is the boring list of parts and what was done. I was impressed by the detailed list of what was done. It's not necessarily important, but if you are really big on stats and details, read on:

12/21/18:
Steam clean engine. Lockout battery supply. Disconnect wiring harness. Remove crankcase breather tubes. Inspection reveals drain to block damaged. Replace with new. Remove rocker lever cover. Remove air intake heater grid and tube. Remove fuel supply lines. Remove rear engine lifting bracket. Remove fuel rail accumulator. Remove rocker levers. Remove high pressure fuel connectors. Remove injectors. Install new injectors with new high pressure fuel connectors. Install fuel supply lines and fuel rail. Install rear engine lifting bracket. Install rocker levers. Adjust engine overhead.

12/26/18:
Install rocker lever cover. Install crankcase breather oil drain tubes. Install heater grid and intake tube. Install wiring harness. Change engine oil and filter. Operate engine. Check for leaks.

Customer billable:

• 1 52633186R Kit of 6 injectors DRC $2489.14
• 1 39496196D HPCR injectors Clean $375.00
• 1 39496196D HPCR injectors Dirty -$375.00
• 6 2872395 Connector, Inj fuel supply CECO $345.90
• 1 3954324 Gasket, valve cover CECO $46.71
• 12 705290 Prem Blue 15W-40 (bulk) G2-Valv $34.44
• 1 LF3972 PAC, LF Flg $10.83
• 1 5265106 Tube, lube oil drain CECO $20.60
• 2 3969988 Gasket, connection CECO $11.86

• Labor $821.50

All in all, I'm very pleased with how this turned out. Thanks to everyone for all the information and suggestions provided on this forum.

 

[sojoe]

Please keep us up to speed on your reman injectors. I hope all goes well for you.
This thread has been very informative as I am soon to be in the market for new injectors.
I don`t know that I can justify the added cost of BBI`s "vs" new Bosch?
Happy New Year

 

[Crunch]

Please keep us up to speed on your reman injectors. I hope all goes well for you.
This thread has been very informative as I am soon to be in the market for new injectors.
I don`t know that I can justify the added cost of BBI`s "vs" new Bosch?
Happy New Year

I had a serious debate in my head about Bosch new vs reman injectors, but the cost of new injectors would have added about $1200 to the total cost. Because I didn't know if the CP3 would also need to be replaced, I opted for the reman injectors instead. The injectors were going to be replaced regardless, and I'm sure the CP3 would have added at least $3K to the job. If I was sure it was only injectors I probably would have spent the extra $1200 and went with new, which ran about $200 more per injector. I searched the part number for the six pack they used (52633186R), and the price I paid was on the lower end I saw on the Internet. I saw them as high as $2900 on some sites. All things considered, I put my trust in a certified Cummins shop that specializes in this work to balance everything out. They don't really like working on pickups, but agreed to do the work and also said they could do the CP3 if needed. One of the reasons I trusted them was because their reputation rests on providing service to commercial vehicles, fire truck and other entities that depend on quality service and fleet work. They told me that they would install BBI injectors, but wouldn't warranty them. One thing I am really happy about is that I didn't have the two extra injectors to pay for had it been a Ford diesel. That alone would have added about $800 to the cost. If you don't know of anyone you really trust to do the work I don't think you will be disappointed to have a local Cummins shop handle it. The detail specs I posted above are transcribed in order, word for word from the invoice. I have never dealt with injectors on any vehicle before, but they appear to have followed the correct process to the letter.

 

[cerberusiam]

You won't like this, but, you would have paid about 30% less for a full set (8) of NEW Bosch injectors for the Ford and a little over half for the reman version.

Unfortunate reality of the business model and practices when a substandard product cost significantly more than new when purchased thru certain channels. When they said they were warrantied for 12 months did that INCLUDE the labor to swap them if they do go bad? If it did not you might might find yourself on the hook for a $300-500 bill per injector to use that warranty. Again, this is the reality and cost we deal with to offload the responsibility and work. If that works for you then it is a good solution.

Given how simple it is to change these injectors with some basic hand tools, you could have bought new, had a better product, learned some new skills, and had some satisfaction and peace of mind. Hope the choice works out well for you.

 

[TCDiesel]

Cerb, Your claim of New being better should have some data from sources that are not Bias or uninformed.... My experience of selling side by side Virgins Vs Recons in Bosch MFG are equal without the additional cost. I did this for 5 years.

The OP went to a local shop that obliviously gain his trust what he paid is the agreement he is happy with, I'm sure he will get the expected life of New (Virgins) out of his Bosch Recons, under normal use and good fuel.

That's another Part of Cost, Contaminate Fuel won't discriminate Between Virgins or Recon cost, it will destroy both equally.