Newbie; Question about 2500/3500 Towing-vs-Payload

[audiodane]

Hey everyone; newbie here.. I'm looking to upgrade our Expedition EL to a RAM 2500 or 3500 (SRW) to get into a heavier camper. We pulled a few with the Expy and it worked well but are wanting something a little larger. We have a family of five, and figure somewhere in the range of 600lbs payload for humans+travelthings (ipods, snacks, etc). Everything else will be thrown into the camper..

In looking at this document (http://cdn.dealereprocess.com/cdn/brochures/ram/ca/2014-rampickup3500.pdf) (I imagine the Canadian specs are the same or close enough to the USA specs; this link is all I could find), it shows that both the 2500 and 3500 have around the same **towing** capacities, when everything else is equal, but, oddly, not nearly the same **payload** capabilities. For example:

2014:
- Ram 2500, Crew Cab, 4x2, 8' Box, Disel, 3.42, SRW, Towing 17,360lb, Payload 2530lb
- Ram 3500, Crew Cab, 4x2, 8' Box, Disel, 3.42, SRW, Towing 17,230lb, Payload 4400lb

* The "Towing" weights are about equal, but the "Payload" weights are significantly different!

Based on payload numbers alone, it looks like if we go with a 5th wheel, then we'll need a 3500 (based upon ~25% pin weight). (SRW, we don't want a dually) If we go bumper-pull, then it may not matter (based upon ~15% hitch weight).

Questions:
1) Why are the towing numbers so similar while the payload numbers are so different?
2) Is the factory 2" trailer hitch receptacle enough to handle WDH near the above limits (less interior cargo stuffs, obviously)?
3) Is there anything else I should be asking? (a great catch-all question!)

thanks in advance!
..dane

 

[AH64ID]

The 2500 has a lower RAWR and GVWR, which is why the payload is lower.

They both share the same GCWR and similar weights, which is why the tow rating is similar.

The rear suspensions are different too, with the 3500 being the tougher of the two. There are some other benefits to the 3500, such as Aisin transmission and the auto-level suspension. (2500 can also have air suspension, but I’ve read mixed review for heavy loads).

Most, if not all, of the current rams have a 2.5” receiver that is rated for 1800/20000, so yes you can use a WDH at the limits of the GCWR, or above.

 

[Cummins12V98]

3500, AISIN, 4x4, long bed

 

[Jim W]

I would also look at this thread in the 4th gen posting area: https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/question-about-gvwr-and-gawr.266521/

It may help you or may confuse you more?

 

[audiodane]

Thank y'all for your quick replies! I was speaking with a friend last night who summed it up this way -- they use the same engines, thus can tow the same amount; but they have different suspensions (3500 much stiffer than the 2500), which gives them different payload capacities. That was such a simple explanation and helped tremendously (unless anyone here thinks it's incorrect)..

We're most likely looking for around a 2014 model, because I don't want to go too old, but I can't afford much newer (also looking for a used camper!).. Trusted friends have indicated that the 3500 is a BEAST, esp. if also needing to be a family/daily driver. Also that the 3500's unloaded drive is much rougher due to the much stiffer suspension (to handle the higher payload), and a DRW is likely not an option.

I would also look at this thread in the 4th gen posting area: https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/question-about-gvwr-and-gawr.266521/ It may help you or may confuse you more?

Thanks @Jim W. That is very informative. I will admit to being confused between differing opinions, whether it's RV forums, truck forums, and friends' opinions. It seems "most people" I talk to scoff at anything other than axle (and tire) ratings. It seems RV forums tend to ensure all the numbers are within spec. It seems to me that there really is no consensus. The thread you linked contains some suggestion that it may have to do with legal requirements (to avoid scale stations at every state line), warranty ("staying under these numbers will ensure the vehicle lasts the warranty'd period without premature failure."), and general "CYA."

I can completely understand if the statement is to the effect of, "exceeding these limits may subject you to weigh station requirements and may wear the vehicle sooner than, and therefore void, the 10yr/100k mile warranty." But of course I haven't found anything that clearly written. So it does beg the question: do I truly only need to be concerned with axle-and-tire ratings and thumb my nose at GCWR?

I would LOVE to be able to pull a Grand Design 311BHS (https://www.granddesignrv.com/showroom/2020/fifth-wheel/reflection/floorplans/311bhs) with a Ram 2500 Crew Cab, but the tow guide (2014: https://www.ramtrucks.com/assets/towing_guide/pdf/2014_RAM.2500.Towing.Specs.pdf) shows a Crew Cab, 4x2, Laramie, Long Box only has a payload of 2340; the 311BHS has a pin weight of 2100 (~20% of UVW, so around 2,800 for fully-loaded GVWR). So by payload numbers, it's an easy, "uhhh--NO." However, if we consider ONLY the axle ratings (assuming tires are correct for now), FGAWR=5,500, RGAWR=6,500; base weight front=4,704, rear base weight=2,954, which leaves front margin=800lbs, rear margin=3546. If we also assume human payload around 600lbs, that still leaves nearly 3000lbs with a ~2,800 max pin load. So -- are we safe? Technically it would seem so, but I'm guessing the common sense answer is, 'probably not.'

So -- what's confusing (to me) is that looking at axle ratings alone gives a MUCH higher capacity than the "payload" in the charts.

How does one reconcile these apparent differences? (<-- I imagine that is the crux of the debate)

thanks!
..dane

ps- FWIW, yes, there are other Grand Designs (a well-regarded 4-season rv) that would fit the bill... give up some stuff but still quite family-friendly floorplans... Our first RV won't be a GD (not that rich), but I'd like to keep the tow vehicle down the road as we upgrade the camper...
- https://www.granddesignrv.com/showroom/2019/fifth-wheel/reflection-150-series/floorplans/290bh
- https://www.granddesignrv.com/showroom/2020/fifth-wheel/reflection/floorplans/28bh
- https://www.granddesignrv.com/showroom/2020/fifth-wheel/reflection/floorplans/31mb

 

[JR]

I'm pretty certain all 2500 come with 17" wheels vs the 3500 SRW with 18". 17" tires are limited to 3195 lbs per tire, 18" rated at 3640 lbs per tire. 2500 utilizes rear coils vs leaf springs on 3500.

 

[TFucili]

My 2015 2500 has OEM 18" wheels/tires @3,640 each.

 

[Cummins12V98]

"3500's unloaded drive is much rougher due to the much stiffer suspension"

Not so fast! 3500 SRW with Factory Rear Air and tires set to a lower pressure based on load you will have a ride that is very nice!

 

[Jim W]

As I stated in my post I do not worry about payload. An yes, I have been flamed on the RV forums for that statement. When I asked them for what the DOT officials and the scale house check for, they go off on a tangent about being sued for being overweight. They never can answer my question! What I do worry about for my truck is the axle weights and my tire load. I do run a different tire than stock which has a 126S rating, which is a higher load and speed rating.

I am pulling a 34RL 2016 Cedar Creek with my truck and this truck can stop and start the load with no issues at all.

 

[Cummins12V98]

Yup! I have asked for examples of people being sued for being over GVWR. Never get an answer.

I run at or below my SAE axle ratings and under combined ratings. I do carry tonnage to cover load on my 6 truck tires.

 

[Mike Ellis]

I daily drove a dually for many years in standard DFW traffic. A dually won't ride as harsh as a performance car, isn't as much bigger as one might think. The only negative I ever experienced from dually ownership has been the annoyance of airing up the inside tire, no matter what setup I had (fill extensions etc) I would always end up having to kneel on the ground and fumble around in the airing process. Replacing tires you of course have 2 more to buy, but over the life of a truck it does not tax you that much, particularly considering the improved stability towing and hauling heavy payload that you get with the extra two wheels.

Take each version for an extended test drive and see what you like best, you can't go wrong either way --- they are great trucks and could pull the Moon down to sea level if you had a long enough chain....

 

[Red Knight]

I have owned 3/4 and 1 ton single wheels, And had very good luck with them. I am now back in a DRW, and nothing is as stable, easy to drive as A Dually. If you plan on being at or near capacity on any truck, More is just better..The singles do just fine, but not nearly as well as the dually.

 

[Wiredawg]

My daily driver in the Washington DC area was an 02 Ram QC 4x4 3500 dually 4.10s 6spd standard. Could put it anywhere it could physically fit. Get in a traffic jam and put it in grandma 1st gear and let it walk.

I do like duallies

Ron

 

[2018MegaCab]

Another newbie here...I hope its not bad etiquette to join a post with my own questions but there are some similarities.
I bought a 2018 Ram MegaCab 2500 diesel 4x4 for the purpose of towing my travel trailer. It is a heavy duty model with 10,000lb GVWR, exhaust brake, and 6,000 and 6,500lb front and rear axle weight rating respectfully. I run Load range "E" Nittos with 3700-4000lb ratings. I was advised it could tow approximately 16,800 lbs which was basically "most things I could hitch up to it." I like many other apparent posters, did not know about payload capacity and how it affected towing. I have since learned. I now want to upgrade to a 5th wheel bunkhouse and realized that my payload sticker reads "not to exceed 1806 lbs". That leaves me nothing to speak of after family, gear, hitch, etc.
I spoke with a local spring shop who advised they have a reasonable fix. They have in the past, increased 3/4 ton truck suspension to the appropriate 1 ton suspension, and provided paperwork stating the work done and increase in payload capacity. They will not speak to the GVWR increase, but said the paperwork has sufficed for scales and such. I spoke to California Highway Patrol who said such efforts would be sufficient to prove due diligence as long as the rest of the tow situation did not suggest any gross negligence. Has anyone actually done this and been able to change the GVWR of their truck?
I spoke with my insurance company (Farmers) and they said I am covered under my policy regardless of what I do to the truck.
And respectfully before it's suggested, I do not want to sell my truck and buy a 1 ton. Thanks

 

[AH64ID]

Go off of FAWR and RAWR, don’t exceed those or your tires. I’ve never paid much attention to GVWR as the only place it’s in the local code is the glossary, in other words it’s not a legal number.

 

[dieselshadow]

Go off of FAWR and RAWR, don’t exceed those or your tires. I’ve never paid much attention to GVWR as the only place it’s in the local code is the glossary, in other words it’s not a legal number.

Around these parts it is a very important number.

Generally speaking though, RV’rs don’t get messed with a whole lot. But your mileage may vary.

 

[AH64ID]

Around these parts it is a very important number.

Generally speaking though, RV’rs don’t get messed with a whole lot. But your mileage may vary.

Is it actually in the laws? I’ve been told that it’s important in many states, but never seen it in their laws. I’ve researched quite a few states.

 

[2018MegaCab]

I was told by the CHP Officer that in CA there is no specific criminal section for being over GVWR. It is based more on the negligence if present, and then goes civil. I have not checked any other states nor do I know how to. Getting answers in CA has been challenging enough.

 

[SnoKing]

Going to tow a 5th wheel, then get a 3500 with Aisin transmission option.

24,500 combined:

 

[NIsaacs]

Going to tow a 5th wheel, then get a 3500 with Aisin transmission option.

24,500 combined:

View attachment 115456

The OP already said this: "And respectfully before it's suggested, I do not want to sell my truck and buy a 1 ton. Thanks"

I tow heavy and often with a 2001 2500 rated 8800 GVW. My truck is licensed for 16k, trailer for 10k+ for a total of 26k GCW.

This is normal for me.