CP4.2 Owners Club

[AH64ID]

There was a redesign in 15, or so I read. Very few failures since then.

The 6.7 powerjoke has always been fed with a lift pump, so that’s not the issue.

 

[TCDiesel]

Hmmm LMBO on the new improved, So was the CP3 6.7/LBZ, its failure rate is exactly the same as the CP3 5.9/LLY/LB7.

I have 18 Years of records.

By the end of this thread it will be the new improved CP4.49.

 

[Jim W]

Hmmm LMBO on the new improved, So was the CP3 6.7/LBZ, its failure rate is exactly the same as the CP3 5.9/LLY/LB7.

I have 18 Years of records.

By the end of this thread it will be the new improved CP4.49.

What was the failure rate on these pumps? So, many per hundred/thousand less than 10% of the total production run (B10 life)? What were the failures, worn parts, improper fuel usage IE water in fuel or poor fuel filtration?

When we tore apart pumps for failure analysis, we would always try to determine the failure! Especially if the pump failed early, less than 1 year of use on the machine. The pump was usually abused such as cavitation taking place or running it dry upon start up or poor filtration taking place! Just curious if you know!

 

[troverman]

...The Denso HP4 was used in the 2008-10 6.4 Ford.

Not true. The Ford 6.4L used a Siemens K16 pump.

 

[TCDiesel]

My mistake... Just to big of hurry.

 

[troverman]

I read this entire thread and shake my head.

For Cummins to achieve the combination of power, emissions compliance, fuel economy, and NVH they desired from the 2019 6.7L they had to move away from the CP3 to a pump capable of supplying more pressure. The CP3 is robust and capable of supplying high volume, but cannot match the pressure produced by more modern pumps like the CP4 (or L5P Denso). So contrary to some people's notion that the CP4 was a 'beancounter' decision or that they are somehow getting a downgrade, that isn't the case.

The CP4.2 is not some new pump, either. It's the same pump used starting in 2011 on the Ford 6.7L.

LML Duramax engines did not use a lift pump; Ford 6.7L engines did, and both suffered a similar rate of failures.

Ford added a hard coating in 2015 to the pump. It's unclear if this was to improve pump durability in the face of pump lubrication loss or as result of a significant horsepower and torque increase that occurred in 2015. GM never did increase the power level of the LML during the same period.

GM has not elaborated as to why they chose Denso over Bosch for the L5P.

Ford's filtration weakness on 2011-2016 6.7L engines was that the chassis filter / separator had very little volume for containing water it separated. That changed in 2017 with a brand new chassis filter setup, which not only was a much larger filter but included significantly more water storage both pre and post WIF illuminating. While on the topic of filtration, it's worth mentioning Ford filters are simply easier to change than Cummins. Accessibility is simply much superior on both the chassis filter and underhood filter. In fact, the underhood filter couldn't be any simpler or easier.

Regarding fuel, Ford 6.7L engines use a fuel cooler / heater. It is a small unit mounted to the chassis fed by return fuel from the rail, and heat is transferred between the fuel and the engine coolant from the low temperature circuit. (6.7L Fords use two cooling systems, complete with two water pumps, radiators, degas tanks, and actually four thermostats. The secondary cooling system operates at a lower temperature). Regarding the fuel cooler, when the fuel in the tank is cold, the heat from the coolant helps warm the fuel, and when hot the lower coolant temp helps remove heat from the fuel.

There is a fine line between an engine manufacturer needing to take all reasonable precautions against common fuel contamination problems, and being fully responsible for ruined fuel systems because the customer ran contaminated fuel in the engine.

The notion that the 2020 Cummins will be running some other type of pump is absurd. That would require the engine to be recertified all over again.

Despite all the noise over CP4 failures (and it is rampant on the GM and Ford Forums) the actual fail rate is very low. More than we'd like, more than the CP3, but still very low.

The best thing to do is just make sure you buy your fuel from high volume stations, where you know a lot of diesel is being sold. Thinking you need to purchase and run additional additives for added lubricity is a mental trap and unnecessary. I fell into that with my first diesel which happened to be 6.7L Powerstroke. But I soon learned just buying quality fuel solves the problem. Just buy fuel from a high volume station and enjoy these new Cummins engines...they are very nice.

 

[TCDiesel]

The weak link in CP3 is the polygon when it come to High pressure, My Pulling trucks run 30,000 PSI, XXXXHP

After X pressure their is very little HP gain Single Digits. Some engine makers run higher pressure to clean up combustion.

 

[troverman]

The weak link in CP3 is the polygon when it come to High pressure, My Pulling trucks run 30,000 PSI, XXXXHP

After X pressure their is very little HP gain Single Digits. Some engine makers run higher pressure to clean up combustion.

Exactly right. The CP4 can produce 36k or 37k PSI, but less fuel volume. The primary purpose of the higher pressure is emissions, and engine noise. Myself, I prefer a louder diesel but apparently the rest of the buying public does not.

The higher pressure allows more injection pulses during a single stroke of one cylinder. More pulses allows cleaner combustion, less noise (since fuel explosion timing can be controlled, sort of like pilot injection), and likely better fuel economy as well.

 

[gsbrockman]

Does anyone know how many injection events there are with the 2019 MY trucks when said truck is not in a regen?

 

[kthaxton]

Mine goes to 11.

 

[Wiredawg]

Does anyone know how many injection events there are with the 2019 MY trucks when said truck is not in a regen?

Greg,
It takes TWO people to count them cuz they are REALLY fast!

Cheers, Ron

 

[troverman]

Does anyone know how many injection events there are with the 2019 MY trucks when said truck is not in a regen?

I couldn't easily find that info. What I did find is that The CP4.2 can run up to 39k psi. The H.O. Cummins is operating at 29k psi. The new Ford with 1050lb-ft is operating at 36k psi. The Ford injectors are capable of 8 events. I would assume running quite a bit less pressure, the Cummins version is at 6-7 events. Lower pressure could be beneficial to longevity, or to allow more volume, or both.

The new Ford 6.7L is impressive with +75HP on the new Cummins. However, torque advantage is negligible. So far, I'm very impressed with how powerful this new HO engine is.

 

[TCDiesel]

toverman, The CP4 cannot take running pressures ( For Long) above 30K W/O having perfect fuel and conditions...

Being impressive by Ford not something I support...

Americans are easily fooled by the V8, its decades in Gas power, I have 2000+ HP Duramax's. So I'm not bias.

At one time I could make statements here at the TDR about fix's for the CP4, now that its being used on Cummins ,Site Mods claim I'm advertising...….

I was leaving blood and sweat on Pumps Long before most so-called X sellers were in Business, Most of these sellers are related to the BMS..

 

[JR]

It is difficult to compare Ford and Cummins for injection events. Ford has been using piezoelectric injectors dating back to the Navistar days. When Bosch first brought piezoelectric to market their claim to fame was they could fire 3-5 times faster than traditional solenoid injectors. I don't know if this is still true.

 

[sag2]

According to the information I use for class Piezo injectors can fire in about 1ms. Depending on the RPM of the engine you may only have a few milliseconds when the piston is between 10° BTDC and about 12° ATDC for main injection events. But you can have pre and post events another 10° before to limit noise and emissions, and quite a few degrees ATDC for emissions related events. So according to most information the maximum is 8-9 events and that would have to be using Piezo over solenoid because of the faster reaction time. Best information I can find on Cummins with Bosch solenoid injectors is 5-6 events, two pre, two main, and one to two post.

 

[troverman]

toverman, The CP4 cannot take running pressures ( For Long) above 30K W/O having perfect fuel and conditions...

Being impressive by Ford not something I support...

Americans are easily fooled by the V8, its decades in Gas power, I have 2000+ HP Duramax's. So I'm not bias.

Given that the 2020 6.7L PSD is indeed running 36k PSI, I guess Ford and Bosch figured out how to make it work. I'll be curious to see if Ford's fuel filters are different than what they were from 2017-2019.

Hard to not be impressed by the V8 diesels. They are making the same or more torque, and at the same RPM as the HO Cummins, but like I said...+75 more horsepower, and that horsepower is 200RPM less than Cummins rated power.

I was surprised to see the injectors used in the new HO Cummins are still solenoid and not piezo.

 

[AEdelheit]

Given that the 2020 6.7L PSD is indeed running 36k PSI, I guess Ford and Bosch figured out how to make it work. I'll be curious to see if Ford's fuel filters are different than what they were from 2017-2019.

Hard to not be impressed by the V8 diesels. They are making the same or more torque, and at the same RPM as the HO Cummins, but like I said...+75 more horsepower, and that horsepower is 200RPM less than Cummins rated power.

I was surprised to see the injectors used in the new HO Cummins are still solenoid and not piezo.

I was pretty damn impressed when I drove a newer 6.7 Ford, they are fast and better throttle response then Cummins, I know the differences and where the Cummins shines but like you said hard not to be impressed even if you dont like them.

 

[troverman]

I was pretty damn impressed when I drove a newer 6.7 Ford, they are fast and better throttle response then Cummins, I know the differences and where the Cummins shines but like you said hard not to be impressed even if you dont like them.

In my opinion (having owned four Ford 6.7L trucks)...this new 2019 Cummins engine has "as good" or even better throttle response than Ford. Vastly better than the throttle response in my 2018 Cummins I traded for my 2019.

The one area (drivetrain wise) where Ford is still better is the transmission, at least when compared to the Aisin. The Ford TorqShift 6 in their diesels (2011-2019) is a smooth operator, shifts quickly, no drama, and very heavy duty. The Aisin has pretty big "no power" gaps between shifts, and shifts are slow. The 68RFE I guess is smoother and quicker than the Aisin but not as strong.

 

[AH64ID]

Hard to not be impressed by the V8 diesels. They are making the same or more torque, and at the same RPM as the HO Cummins, but like I said...+75 more horsepower, and that horsepower is 200RPM less than Cummins rated power.

Both the Cummins and the Powerstroke are rated at 2800 rpms.

The 1050 lb/ft at 1600 is impressive for a V8 when the Cummins is currently at 1800.

I wonder if Cummins will do anything to answer for 2020.

In my opinion (having owned four Ford 6.7L trucks)...this new 2019 Cummins engine has "as good" or even better throttle response than Ford. Vastly better than the throttle response in my 2018 Cummins I traded for my 2019.

The one area (drivetrain wise) where Ford is still better is the transmission, at least when compared to the Aisin. The Ford TorqShift 6 in their diesels (2011-2019) is a smooth operator, shifts quickly, no drama, and very heavy duty. The Aisin has pretty big "no power" gaps between shifts, and shifts are slow. The 68RFE I guess is smoother and quicker than the Aisin but not as strong.

While I don't have a lot of miles driving a 6.7 Powerstoke, I have a few in a 2017.

I have to say I'd take the Aisin any day over the TorqShift. I was not all impressed with it, especially at low speeds on steep and winding forest service roads.. same goes for the engine, I just wasn't impressed but I never hooked it up to anything.

My brother loves his truck, but his previous truck was a '06 Hemi, and before that a '93 D-250 5.9 with a 5 speed.

 

[troverman]

Both the Cummins and the Powerstroke are rated at 2800 rpms.

The 1050 lb/ft at 1600 is impressive for a V8 when the Cummins is currently at 1800.



While I don't have a lot of miles driving a 6.7 Powerstoke, I have a few in a 2017.

I have to say I'd take the Aisin any day over the TorqShift. I was not all impressed with it, especially at low speeds on steep and winding forest service roads.. same goes for the engine, I just wasn't impressed but I never hooked it up to anything.

My brother loves his truck, but his previous truck was a '06 Hemi, and before that a '93 D-250 5.9 with a 5 speed.

Actually, the 2020 Ford is rated at 2600RPM. The 2018 Cummins was rated at 2800, but not the new one. I was surprised since all the Big 3 pickup diesels have been rated at 2800 for years now.

I never had a problem with the TorqShift 6 in those conditions, but another advantage is that the Ford has SelectShift. That means you can choose manual mode and easily shift between gears by pushing the +/- buttons on the gearshift. RAM only lets you lock out gears, but not manually shift. Not to mention Ford will allow you to start in 2nd or 3rd gear if you want. It only prevents manual selection of gears to high for the speed to prevent stalling, or too low to prevent over-revving.